Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing, but can you tell us a little bit more?
Was the Indian Navy visiting Southern Europe, or was the Marina Militare paying a visit to South-Asia?
Was the Indian Navy visiting Southern Europe, or was the Marina Militare paying a visit to South-Asia?
They met in the middle of sorts.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
The PPA is currently deployed together with 560 troops in Qatar, the meeting between the two ships occurred during a brief visit in the UAE.
The deployment is part of a broader diplomatic strategy towards the Middle East and the Israeli-Egyptian area, aimed to strenghten the presence of italian troops in the area to secure the new energy interests of ENI and SAIPEM in the so called " Enlarged Mediterranean ", where Italy aim to counter Turkish influence and become the biggest military and economic actor, having 8500 troops already deployed in the area ( 1500 in Lebanon alone ).
Italy’s Mediterranean Belt and Road
Taking a page from Beijing, Rome is positioning itself as the center of trade, energy, and transportation in Southern Europe and beyond.
foreignpolicy.com
To understand the growth of Italian military spending and the massive fleet renewal program ( the fleet tonnage is going to double from 2010 to 2030 ), it is essential to understand the concept of " Enlarged Mediterranean" ( Mediterraneo allargato ).
This map was made by former Chief of Staff, Admiral De Giorgi, and represents the area of interest for italian military, politics and energy companies.
Hope this may help to understand the political view and concept that is behind programs like the " PPA ", " DDx ", or the new LHD and 3 LXDs, that may otherwise seem pointless in a closed sea like the mediterranean.
Together, of course ( but this is not the proper topic ), with the enlargement of Tankers and AEW planes fleet.
Without forgetting, of course, that no country in the world has the strategic capability of the USA.
Images: MILEX osservatorio difesa, GdeGiorgi, Il Mediterraneo allargato
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SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
MMI and Marine Nationale working together in the Gulf region.
Note the difference in size between the french frigate and the Thaon di Revel.
Note the difference in size between the french frigate and the Thaon di Revel.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
The Thaon di Revel class are a very big OPV at 143m and 5000t and the "Full" version coming down the track will be a pretty respectable GP Frigate armed with 1x127mm, 1x76mm, 16 VLS for LR/SR Sam, LACM, 8 SSM, 2 LWT launchers and up to 2 NFH-90 Helicopters or UAVs. AESA 3D Radars, towed and VDS Sonars,
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
The Ronarc'h class are a very unusual design though, of course starting with the tumblehome bow and they are unusually wide at 122x17.7m. Strangely they have actually been given D designations (D660-664) for their hull numbers.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
France designate all their first-line combatants D.
Horizon Class, Aquitaine Class, Cassard Class and FDI Ronarc'h Class are all designated D, its a french habit that is still in use today.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Launched this morning the fifth PPA, P433 "Marcantonio Colonna".
Navy Chief of Staff, Admiral Credendino, announced that the first two units ( P430 and P431 ) recently commissioned, will soon be upgraded to the FULL configuration by Fincantieri due to increasing tensions in the Mediterranean.
The class will then be made of 4 FULL and 3 LIGHT+.
The hull next to the P433 is the 9th FREMM ( F598 ), currently being build by Fincantieri in the GP-E version ( armed with a 127mm but equipped with the Captas4 and the full ASW suite). Next to the F598, not in the picture, parts of the 10th FREMM ( F599 ) are laid down.
Images and infos: RID Rivista Italiana Difesa ; RID Rivista Italiana Difesa .
Navy Chief of Staff, Admiral Credendino, announced that the first two units ( P430 and P431 ) recently commissioned, will soon be upgraded to the FULL configuration by Fincantieri due to increasing tensions in the Mediterranean.
The class will then be made of 4 FULL and 3 LIGHT+.
The hull next to the P433 is the 9th FREMM ( F598 ), currently being build by Fincantieri in the GP-E version ( armed with a 127mm but equipped with the Captas4 and the full ASW suite). Next to the F598, not in the picture, parts of the 10th FREMM ( F599 ) are laid down.
Images and infos: RID Rivista Italiana Difesa ; RID Rivista Italiana Difesa .
That'll give the MM 2 AAW destroyers, 10 FREMM, 4 PPA full, & 3 PPA light+ from ships currently built or building, with two large "destroyers" (more like AAW cruisers) planned, & the Italian FREMMs & the PPA Full & Light+ have Sylver A50. That's quite a few AAW-capable platforms, even though most of them will have relatively few medium/long-range missiles.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Actually Italy has 4 AAW Destroyers, 2xDurand de la Penne and 2 Andrea Doria (Italian-French Horizon design).
Italy - DDX 10,000-ton (globalsecurity.org)
The new Destroyers will be huge at 175x24x9.0m, same size as the Chinese Type 055 and not much smaller than the Garibaldi, though most reports seem to have them somewhat under-armed compared to the Type 055 and Sejong the Greats at either 64 or 72 Cells.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
The decision to upgrade the 2 PPA Light was known since at least early this summer, but no official statement was made until this morning.
This is certainly an important news.
the Durand de la Penne Class are still capable warships and overall well-balanced destroyers, but they can barely be listed as AAW and the MMI itself is gradually moving the 2 destroyers to second-line roles and using them as school-ships.
One of the 2 ships ( this summer the "Mimbelli" if I remeber correctly ) always have a class of cadets onboard, or more often a class of new sailors/students.
Also the AA capability of those units isnt really top-edge, they still rely on old Aspide and SM2 missiles, which are quite obsolete.
However I'm sure the two ships would be quite happy to know you listed them as AAW destroyers
Regarding the DDX, the project that was approved by the Parliament defense commission reports the following:
- NOT LESS than 11 000 tons
- MORE than 175m
- AROUND 300 crew
This requirements, as you see, can only grow.
Personally I'd prefer 4 smaller destroyers, lets say as big as the Horizon class.
However the Navy was clear and I wouldnt be surprised if the final displacement is something like 13 000 tons...
I'll attach the documents ( they are in italian unfortunately, but you can traslate Ares website... the pdf i dont know...)
Thanks.
Due nuovi Cacciatorpediniere per la Marina Militare Italiana
La Marina Militare ha avviato il programma di realizzazione di due nuove potenti unità DDX destinate a sostituire gli attuali Ammiragli
aresdifesa.it
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Yes, probably being generous with the De La Penne's. Had no issues with a translation and read the article and it is suggesting 64 Cells, will be interesting to see why they are going so big, significantly bigger than a Burke.The decision to upgrade the 2 PPA Light was known since at least early this summer, but no official statement was made until this morning.
This is certainly an important news.
the Durand de la Penne Class are still capable warships and overall well-balanced destroyers, but they can barely be listed as AAW and the MMI itself is gradually moving the 2 destroyers to second-line roles and using them as school-ships.
One of the 2 ships ( this summer the "Mimbelli" if I remeber correctly ) always have a class of cadets onboard, or more often a class of new sailors/students.
Also the AA capability of those units isnt really top-edge, they still rely on old Aspide and SM2 missiles, which are quite obsolete.
However I'm sure the two ships would be quite happy to know you listed them as AAW destroyers
Regarding the DDX, the project that was approved by the Parliament defense commission reports the following:
- NOT LESS than 11 000 tons
- MORE than 175m
- AROUND 300 crew
This requirements, as you see, can only grow.
Personally I'd prefer 4 smaller destroyers, lets say as big as the Horizon class.
However the Navy was clear and I wouldnt be surprised if the final displacement is something like 13 000 tons...
I'll attach the documents ( they are in italian unfortunately, but you can traslate Ares website... the pdf i dont know...)
Thanks.
Due nuovi Cacciatorpediniere per la Marina Militare Italiana
La Marina Militare ha avviato il programma di realizzazione di due nuove potenti unità DDX destinate a sostituire gli attuali Ammiragli
Yes, but I was referring to the fleet in the near future, when the currently building ships are in service. The Durand de la Penne class are heading for retirement, & getting increasingly obsolete as first-line units.
Insiders ,reliable ones, speak of if I remember correctly
6DDs of which 4 DDX (not certain but high chance)
They are also pushing (to navy) for
FREMM:6 ASW, 2 GP, 2 GP-E substitutes for Egypt ones with some (this is the point I remember the least) ASW capabilities, plus some 4-6 new FREMM EVO.
But better than writing I will try to track down the relative post.
6DDs of which 4 DDX (not certain but high chance)
They are also pushing (to navy) for
FREMM:6 ASW, 2 GP, 2 GP-E substitutes for Egypt ones with some (this is the point I remember the least) ASW capabilities, plus some 4-6 new FREMM EVO.
But better than writing I will try to track down the relative post.
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SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Not to takle down any hype, you're free to think whatever you want, but thats pure speculation.
The new destroyers are going to cost 2.7 Billions, 4 DDX will probably cost something like 4.5 Billions ( difficult to say but cant be much lower than that, including armament and maintenance ).
6 new FREMMs wont be much cheaper than 4 Billions and the first wont be laid down before 2025.
Thats already roughly 6.5 Billions ( when Italy's GDP isnt going to grow next year and will probably be affected by massive inflation ).
That being said, 6 new ships need sailors, officers and maintenance crew.
I know these "rumors" came from Navy insiders, but even if the Navy do ask these new ships, is the parliament going to say OK?
6 new FREMMs are objectively too much for a realistic economical view...
The new destroyers are going to cost 2.7 Billions, 4 DDX will probably cost something like 4.5 Billions ( difficult to say but cant be much lower than that, including armament and maintenance ).
6 new FREMMs wont be much cheaper than 4 Billions and the first wont be laid down before 2025.
Thats already roughly 6.5 Billions ( when Italy's GDP isnt going to grow next year and will probably be affected by massive inflation ).
That being said, 6 new ships need sailors, officers and maintenance crew.
I know these "rumors" came from Navy insiders, but even if the Navy do ask these new ships, is the parliament going to say OK?
6 new FREMMs are objectively too much for a realistic economical view...
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
This summer's images of the Fincantieri shipyard in Muggiano, La Spezia. ( July 2022 )
3x Thaon di Revel class ( P431,P432,P434 )
3x Doha class ( F101,F103,F104 )
1x Fremm ( F1002 Al-Galala )
1x Trieste LHD ( L9890 )
Images of what I presume is the sixth PPA, P435 " Ruggiero di Laura ", being built in a submarine-construction building, because of too many ships orders.
I could be wrong about it being P435, but I see no other explanation for a ship being built in U212 buildings...
It cant be P433, as in fact P433 " Colonna " was built and launched in Riva Trigoso shipyard.
Images from Google earth...
3x Thaon di Revel class ( P431,P432,P434 )
3x Doha class ( F101,F103,F104 )
1x Fremm ( F1002 Al-Galala )
1x Trieste LHD ( L9890 )
Images of what I presume is the sixth PPA, P435 " Ruggiero di Laura ", being built in a submarine-construction building, because of too many ships orders.
I could be wrong about it being P435, but I see no other explanation for a ship being built in U212 buildings...
It cant be P433, as in fact P433 " Colonna " was built and launched in Riva Trigoso shipyard.
Images from Google earth...
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Italian Navy and OCCAR signed the contract for the 3rd U212NFS SSK.
Current delivery schedule:
n1, 2027
n2, 2029
n3, 2030
n4, 2031 ( to be confirmed in 2023 )
" In addition to the production of NFS 3, this new contractual amendment also addresses the implementation of further technological advancements to enhance submarines’ efficiency and performance within the underwater domain. "
Not sure what this refers to, but apparently some changes to the first 2 subs will also be implemented.
OCCAR - 404
ORGANISATION FOR JOINT ARMAMENT COOPERATION facilitates and manages complex, cooperative defence equipment programmes to the satisfaction of its customers.
www.occar.int
Current delivery schedule:
n1, 2027
n2, 2029
n3, 2030
n4, 2031 ( to be confirmed in 2023 )
" In addition to the production of NFS 3, this new contractual amendment also addresses the implementation of further technological advancements to enhance submarines’ efficiency and performance within the underwater domain. "
Not sure what this refers to, but apparently some changes to the first 2 subs will also be implemented.
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
Couple of "recent" pictures of LHD Trieste, during sea trials in La Spezia.
The second One shows the work done on the two islands, the new radar and other stuff like the VLS slots ( dont know if the Sylver cells are already onboard or Just FFBNW ).
Navy confirmed that the commissioning will be delayed, very unlikely to see the ship entering service in 2023.
credits: Alessandro Burla
The second One shows the work done on the two islands, the new radar and other stuff like the VLS slots ( dont know if the Sylver cells are already onboard or Just FFBNW ).
Navy confirmed that the commissioning will be delayed, very unlikely to see the ship entering service in 2023.
credits: Alessandro Burla