Royal New Zealand Air Force

[MrConservative]

The F-15SG's would have complied with Manawatu District Plan which was tested in the Environment Court in December 2016 following the NZDF notifying Change 55.

The runway extension should be happening anyway due to the P-8A's requirements. So on one hand it is fine to utilise an operational Kiwi aircraft on a runway that needs another 300m in length to operate at a rarely required MTOW but now the opposite with respect to the F-15SG is used as an argument not too. Basically the GOTD does not want to spend the money to do that.

Furthermore the alleged crowding of the base is over-cooked. The Footprint of a air combat squadron is less than the previous base expansion proposal which was to essentially house 1 BDE at OH alongside air operations under the auspices of a NZDF Joint Base.

They also use the transfer of 3 Sqd to OH not generating huge gains as the baseline to argue that long term economic benefits wont be sustained post construction. I would say better than 3 Sqd what with 500 people permanently entering the community. The local government sector got a different viewpoint from their case studies regarding the local benefits to the economy.

Sound decibels - were within district plan limits. Sanson is a tiny village population 500 2km's south the Air Force has been close by for 80 years. If you don't want to live near a military base you should not have moved there. Fine sound proof the local school and some houses. We are talking about in effect just 8 aircraft on a normal flying day for a few minutes mostly around mid morning or afternoon - entering finals just north of the village for a few minutes if they followed the same TOAL pattern of the A-4's. $24m to sort the problem out including at OH itself.

Fuel trucks will need to bring in more fuel? A couple more tankers trucks a day going down SH1. Oh Please - and that is a drawback.

As for the lack air bases - what about WB - an airbase with a under utilised runway and available space that could quite happily have the T-6C's based there. OH is not a busy base even if flight movements doubled. Back in the 1970-1990's it coped with 55 aircraft and frequent overseas visitors on a regular basis. There are joint mil-civ bases world wide with a far greater range of aircraft types and daily movements that cope fine. I have visited JASDF, USMC and USAF bases they cope fine with a variety of aircraft with a far greater operational tempo.

As sharing airspace - just go back to the stricter NOTAM regime pre 2001. There are also still gazetted low flying zones in NZ. Notifying them again. It worked before when there were over 40 fast jets in the air and more aerial top dressing aircraft operating then now.

This was only ever about the fact that this was going to cost NZ a bit of money - money that the last government had set aside $1.7B to utilised within updated Defence infrastructure and was very keen to follow through with according to very senior people I have spoken too.

If we had a proper mature and normal approach to Defence we would be seizing on the opportunity to move back into multi-role fast air ourselves by partnering with Singapore as much as we could. At least on the establishment of infrastructure.

The canning of the project wont negatively set back the relationship but if it had gone ahead it would have certainly deepened it far more than the limited imaginations of the people who wrote, approved and released this report.

 

[ngatimozart]

I don't think this decision should be interpreted in that light. The document specifically mentions that the decision will not negatively impact on our two countries "strong bilateral relationship" so I think it the decision was made in close consultation with Singaporean officials, and our relationship remains strong.

I personally would have loved to see fast jet's return to NZ skies, and I hope that alternative arrangements can be made. After reading the document I can understand why they made the decision they did though.

I very much read it in a similar light to @OPSSG and @MrConservative. To me it's a Claytons - the drink that you have when you don't want a drink.

ADDON. If push came to shove and there was to many conflicts with aircraft, they could've moved flying training, both fixed and rotary wing, to Woodbourne making WB the main and sole training base of the RNZAF and returning Ohakea to its previous role of an operational base. WB was used as a flying training base during WW2 and no real reason why it can't now.

 

[milliGal]

The F-15SG's would have complied with Manawatu District Plan which was tested in the Environment Court in December 2016 following the NZDF notifying Change 55.

The runway extension should be happening anyway due to the P-8A's requirements. So on one hand it is fine to utilise an operational Kiwi aircraft on a runway that needs another 300m in length to operate at a rarely required MTOW but now the opposite with respect to the F-15SG is used as an argument not too. Basically the GOTD does not want to spend the money to do that.

Furthermore the alleged crowding of the base is over-cooked. The Footprint of a air combat squadron is less than the previous base expansion proposal which was to essentially house 1 BDE at OH alongside air operations under the auspices of a NZDF Joint Base.

They also use the transfer of 3 Sqd to OH not generating huge gains as the baseline to argue that long term economic benefits wont be sustained post construction. I would say better than 3 Sqd what with 500 people permanently entering the community. The local government sector got a different viewpoint from their case studies regarding the local benefits to the economy.

Sound decibels - were within district plan limits. Sanson is a tiny village population 500 2km's south the Air Force has been close by for 80 years. If you don't want to live near a military base you should not have moved there. Fine sound proof the local school and some houses. We are talking about in effect just 8 aircraft on a normal flying day for a few minutes mostly around mid morning or afternoon - entering finals just north of the village for a few minutes if they followed the same TOAL pattern of the A-4's. $24m to sort the problem out including at OH itself.

Fuel trucks will need to bring in more fuel? A couple more tankers trucks a day going down SH1. Oh Please - and that is a drawback.

As for the lack air bases - what about WB - an airbase with a under utilised runway and available space that could quite happily have the T-6C's based there. OH is not a busy base even if flight movements doubled. Back in the 1970-1990's it coped with 55 aircraft and frequent overseas visitors on a regular basis. There are joint mil-civ bases world wide with a far greater range of aircraft types and daily movements that cope fine. I have visited JASDF, USMC and USAF bases they cope fine with a variety of aircraft with a far greater operational tempo.

As sharing airspace - just go back to the stricter NOTAM regime pre 2001. There are also still gazetted low flying zones in NZ. Notifying them again. It worked before when there were over 40 fast jets in the air and more aerial top dressing aircraft operating then now.

This was only ever about the fact that this was going to cost NZ a bit of money - money that the last government had set aside $1.7B to utilised within updated Defence infrastructure and was very keen to follow through with according to very senior people I have spoken too.

If we had a proper mature and normal approach to Defence we would be seizing on the opportunity to move back into multi-role fast air ourselves by partnering with Singapore as much as we could. At least on the establishment of infrastructure.

The canning of the project wont negatively set back the relationship but if it had gone ahead it would have certainly deepened it far more than the limited imaginations of the people who wrote, approved and released this report.

I bow to your superior knowledge @MrConservative, consider my mind changed back the other way.

Woodbourne does seem under-utilised at present, but the trend over the last few decades seems to be towards consolidation at Ohakea and I would be surprised to see that change. Do you think there is anything to the statements towards considering alternative arrangements, or is the proposal effectively dead now?

 

[MrConservative]

I very much read it in a similar light to @OPSSG and @MrConservative. To me it's a Claytons - the drink that you have when you don't want a drink.

ADDON. If push came to shove and there was to many conflicts with aircraft, they could've moved flying training, both fixed and rotary wing, to Woodbourne making WB the main and sole training base of the RNZAF and returning Ohakea to its previous role of an operational base. WB was used as a flying training base during WW2 and no real reason why it can't now.

They did mention Waiouru.

Go to Google Maps and one can clearly see potential and plenty to extend and widen the current runway with taxi way through to around 3000m from 39°26'20.1"S 175°39'07.3"E to 39°27'52.7"S 175°40'17.8"E, The only two issues and which are not in the least insurmountable is the necessity to build a runway bridge over the small gully at 39°26'56.0"S 175°40'15.0"E and an underpass for SH1 at 39°26'56.0"S 175°40'15.0"E
that would be for the 300m taxiway linking the runway to the admin, hangars and hardstand areas in the village itself centred on the area around 39°466710, 175.681334.

Blue Sky Thinking Caps on here (which is always a dangerous thing) but the above could potentially be a new joint base facility for RNZAF and RSAF with plenty of room to the South of the camp for expansion to NZ Army and Singaporean Army requirements - noting that Singapore is rotating through there frequently. Such a facility could even attract a 3rd country such as South Korea on a part-time of even full time basis as they are like Singapore very restricted in both air and land space for training - NZ could be the perfect partner and again would deepen the relationship with them as well. The common goal from the common facility would provide for better fiscal leverage from cost sharing and economies of scale. Such a win - win would lighten the infrastructure load for the RNZAF in re-entering the fast-air space thus making it more cost effective.

Just on the tactical fighter space such a facility could attract short term training and exercise deployments from all over the Pacific rim from other forces such as the USMC, USAF and USN, JASDF, RAAF, RMAF and RTAF. Waiouru military area is smack bang in the middle of nowhere miles from anywhere or anyone where one can make as much noise as they like on a huge tract of Defence land with just a pine forest and a couple of sheep stations for company. There is the barebones infrastructure of a town that once housed 3000 people with footpaths, playing fields, school, local community centre, shops, and the ski resort nearby town of Ohakune is just 20 minutes away, great trout fishing close by, deer stalking, hiking, a golf course and even a local tavern. We need to be a bit more ambitious and seek solutions in my view rather than being scared of them which seems like the mentality at present.

 

[milliGal]

Ah I wasn't aware a runway even existed at Waiouru. It is a bit tucked away, and it does not look like there is a single other bit of infrastructure around it so I'm guessing it doesn't get a huge amount of use. It also looks like you could comfortably accommodate a new 3 km runway by building out NNE as well. This would avoid the issue of the gully and highway encroachment. There appears to be a slight topographic gradient in that direction though so significant earthworks would still be required.

With the cost of the F-35 coming down as production ramps up, NZ has a real window of opportunity to re-establish its air combat force. I'm sure this thought must have also occurred to some within the MoD and NZDF. If we can share some of the infrastructure cost with Singapore that only makes it more attractive.

 

[Rob c]

I was brought up near Waiouru and Mum and Dad had a business there. I would not like to live there due to the weather, about 30% of the time we lived there we had snow in December and at times frosts in January ( our summer time ) not only that during winter it seemed it was bleak wet and cold a lot of the time . The feeling of damp and cold is a memory I have never forgotten. Would not recommend an Airforce base there.

 

[Redlands18]

If you don’t mind, let me share a frank perspective.
Just on the tactical fighter space such a facility could attract short term training and exercise deployments from all over the Pacific rim from other forces such as the USMC, USAF and USN, JASDF, RAAF, RMAF and RTAF. Waiouru military area is smack bang in the middle of nowhere miles from anywhere or anyone where one can make as much noise as they like on a huge tract of Defence land with just a pine forest and a couple of sheep stations for company. There is the barebones infrastructure of a town that once housed 3000 people with footpaths, playing fields, school, local community centre, shops, and the ski resort nearby town of Ohakune is just 20 minutes away, great trout fishing close by, deer stalking, hiking, a golf course and even a local tavern. We need to be a bit more ambitious and seek solutions in my view rather than being scared of them which seems like the mentality at present.

Williamstown and Amberley are only 2200 and 2400 Ks away too in a Air Space that has only relatively light Traffic especially compared to Singapore. It would certainly be beneficial to Australia as well.

 

[SteveR]

They did mention Waiouru.

t.

The one problem with Waiouru is that the flanks of 8000 Ft Mt Ruapehu are on the extended centreline of the north west runway direction - a pilot taking off in that direction distracted by other cockpit issues could become part of skip slope. Also that volcano has been know to erupt and with prevailing westerlies that could be an environmental danger.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Singaporeans would find Waiouru somewhat challenging during the winter, because of the weather conditions. Yes, it's near an active volcano but, that is part and parcel of living in NZ - volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunami, cyclones, floods etc. The last super volcano to erupt (Taupo) is not that far from Waiouru, so you pays your money you takes your chances. Things like Ruapehu erupting can be mitigated for and GNS have a monitoring system so if it starts to get antsy, then they issue advisories and warnings as the case maybe.

They did mention Waiouru.

Blue Sky Thinking Caps on here (which is always a dangerous thing) but the above could potentially be a new joint base facility for RNZAF and RSAF with plenty of room to the South of the camp for expansion to NZ Army and Singaporean Army requirements - noting that Singapore is rotating through there frequently. Such a facility could even attract a 3rd country such as South Korea on a part-time of even full time basis as they are like Singapore very restricted in both air and land space for training - NZ could be the perfect partner and again would deepen the relationship with them as well. The common goal from the common facility would provide for better fiscal leverage from cost sharing and economies of scale. Such a win - win would lighten the infrastructure load for the RNZAF in re-entering the fast-air space thus making it more cost effective.

Just on the tactical fighter space such a facility could attract short term training and exercise deployments from all over the Pacific rim from other forces such as the USMC, USAF and USN, JASDF, RAAF, RMAF and RTAF. Waiouru military area is smack bang in the middle of nowhere miles from anywhere or anyone where one can make as much noise as they like on a huge tract of Defence land with just a pine forest and a couple of sheep stations for company. There is the barebones infrastructure of a town that once housed 3000 people with footpaths, playing fields, school, local community centre, shops, and the ski resort nearby town of Ohakune is just 20 minutes away, great trout fishing close by, deer stalking, hiking, a golf course and even a local tavern. We need to be a bit more ambitious and seek solutions in my view rather than being scared of them which seems like the mentality at present.

From a RNZAF personnel perspective, it would work if it was a bare bones base and people weren't posted there. There are no five star hotels there . RNZAF bods don't mind going there for exercises, but being posted there permanently for a two to three year stretch would be an absolutely different story. Even when I was in we called it Wiberia and saw it as a place to avoid at all costs, much like Ardmore, the then Services Corrective Establishment (now at Burnham). Sheep are still called Waiouru blondes by many of us ex RNZAF types.

The bigger problem would be partners of both RNZAF and Army personnel who have careers, wanting to continue working and being unable to do so at Waiouru because it's out in the middle of the wop wops, miles from any main centre. Combined with that most, if not all service families require two incomes to survive and they won't have that at Waiouru. If any of the married quarters are left they are cold and draughty, with little insulation and no double glazing. They were of the same design and materials as state houses, like the rest of the Defence houses.

TBH for the investment required they might as well build a new base from scratch say in the South Island near Burnham and use the Tekapo army area as a range. They have the mountain areas of the South Island for low flying well away from commercial aviation routes and easy access to both east and west off shore areas. It'd be near a major city where partners can continue careers and also two universities are located. They even may be able to get a few dairy farms cheaply.

 

[MrConservative]

TBH for the investment required they might as well build a new base from scratch say in the South Island near Burnham and use the Tekapo army area as a range. They have the mountain areas of the South Island for low flying well away from commercial aviation routes and easy access to both east and west off shore areas. It'd be near a major city where partners can continue careers and also two universities are located. They even may be able to get a few dairy farms cheaply.

Waiouru does have its issues.

A location in the South Island would work as there are likely to be less populated areas compared to the North. Due to RMA and subsequent Resource Consent issues my view that using an existing Airfield is far easier to develop than a greenfield sight.

However such a place ideally would have to be close to a reasonably sized city but be far enough that noise complaints are mitigated.

Looking around the South Island only one place seemed to offer a reasonable opportunity with space to grow, in a rural area, close to the sea, an industrial estate just 4km away (Washdyke) and the centre of Timaru City 9km away.

Richard Pearse Airport - Wikipedia

Google Maps

 

[OPSSG]

Waiouru does have its issues.

A location in the South Island would work as there are likely to be less populated areas compared to the North. Due to RMA and subsequent Resource Consent issues my view that using an existing Airfield is far easier to develop than a greenfield sight.

However such a place ideally would have to be close to a reasonably sized city but be far enough that noise complaints are mitigated.

Looking around the South Island only one place seemed to offer a reasonable opportunity with space to grow, in a rural area, close to the sea, an industrial estate just 4km away (Washdyke) and the centre of Timaru City 9km away.

Richard Pearse Airport - Wikipedia

Google Maps

The opportunity came and passed - it’s a pity. We’ll just look at other defence areas where the NZ Government is keen.

 

[MrConservative]

The opportunity came and passed. We’ll just look at other areas where the NZ Government is keen.

The trick is to pick your government and get in early in the term. I would not waste your time with the current lot which blends senility with snowflakes.

 

[ngatimozart]

Waiouru does have its issues.

A location in the South Island would work as there are likely to be less populated areas compared to the North. Due to RMA and subsequent Resource Consent issues my view that using an existing Airfield is far easier to develop than a greenfield sight.

However such a place ideally would have to be close to a reasonably sized city but be far enough that noise complaints are mitigated.

Looking around the South Island only one place seemed to offer a reasonable opportunity with space to grow, in a rural area, close to the sea, an industrial estate just 4km away (Washdyke) and the centre of Timaru City 9km away.

Richard Pearse Airport - Wikipedia

Google Maps

I don't know about Timaru. A quite a few oldies live there, but it does have advantages. It is quite a pleasant place to live and the climate isn't to bad. Not badly placed, two hours from Christchurch and two and a half hours from Dunedin. Four to five hours from Queenstown and about four hours from Wanaka depending upon the time of year and conditions. The port handles container and bulk shipping traffic and should handle any of the RNZN ships draught wise, although can have a cow of a surge running through it. So shipping Singaporean or other foreign govts equipment by sea through it shouldn't be a problem. Housing prices aren't to bad and its not far to some of the best ski fields in NZ. On good days you can go surfing in the morning and skiing in the arvo, depending on the tide. Also good boating and water skiing close by as well.

A C-17 can get in and out of the airport, having seen it with my own eyes during Southern Katipo 13 (2013). There is room to extend and widen the runway to the north, which would be the better option, because it takes it away from the city. Would also need a SE - NW runway as well,which means sealing, widening, and extending the grass strip they have that runs at right angles to the main runway. It would be very dangerous, if not impossible attempting to undertake crosswind take offs and landings in strong to gale force west to NW föhn wind conditions which are a regular occurrence, especially in the summer time, along the east coast from Invercargill to Blenheim. You could have aviation fuel shipped to the port as well, instead of coming through Lyttelton and being trucked down (180 km). Same with munitions.

If the NZ Army could be convinced to move from Burnham to there, they would be significantly closer to Tekapo Military Camp / Training Area. It's not as large as Waiouru but they still use it quite a bit. At least as cold a Waiouru too and only about a 90 minute to two hour drive from Timaru, basically cutting the distance in half from Burnham. Would also mean that if needs be they can load Canterbury at the port too, probably a lot easier than at Lyttelton and a darn so closer.

Something else to throw into the pot.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

It has been widely reported that the defence estate requires investment. Since most if not all current defence properties originated during the second world war maybe its time to look at the development opportunities for new bases.

I agree with comments about dual income regardless of where you live in todays economy. Work life balance is also important.

From the air force perspective I believe the Woodbourne is woefully underutilized and comments about returning training aircraft to the base makes sense. Leased rotary trainers should be acquired freeing the A/LUH for military functions from Ohakea. This could then be the primary air training base for thw RNZAF.

With the pressures on Whenupai for its valuable land its time to give it up and move. Transport and long range maritime aircraft should be moved to Ohakea alongside the NH90s and A/LUHs. The Sprites can be housed at facilities in the Auckland area either at Ardmore or at Auckland International.

If, a big if, some form of ACF is re-established Ohakea is the natural location along with any foreign partnership.

ChCh is the other option since its an operational international airport with facilities and noise issues already in place.

 

[CJohn]

It has been widely reported that the defence estate requires investment. Since most if not all current defence properties originated during the second world war maybe its time to look at the development opportunities for new bases.

I agree with comments about dual income regardless of where you live in todays economy. Work life balance is also important.

From the air force perspective I believe the Woodbourne is woefully underutilized and comments about returning training aircraft to the base makes sense. Leased rotary trainers should be acquired freeing the A/LUH for military functions from Ohakea. This could then be the primary air training base for thw RNZAF.

With the pressures on Whenupai for its valuable land its time to give it up and move. Transport and long range maritime aircraft should be moved to Ohakea alongside the NH90s and A/LUHs. The Sprites can be housed at facilities in the Auckland area either at Ardmore or at Auckland International.

If, a big if, some form of ACF is re-established Ohakea is the natural location along with any foreign partnership.

ChCh is the other option since its an operational international airport with facilities and noise issues already in place.

 

[CJohn]

Look, we all need to see what the up coming budget brings,Ron Marks has been a good advocate for the armed forces, hopefully he his made some inroads within the Government, the general public is slowly waking up to our inadequate defence budget I think. We will wait and see.

 

[40 deg south]

Look, we all need to see what the up coming budget brings,Ron Marks has been a good advocate for the armed forces, hopefully he his made some inroads within the Government, the general public is slowly waking up to our inadequate defence budget I think. We will wait and see.

Ron Mark means well, but I don't think he has the clout to bring home the bacon. Getting the P-8s was a significant achievement, but I fear the attitude for the remainder of this Parliament's term will be 'You've had your share'. The repeated delays in publishing the Defence Capability Plan are a bad omen.

The material published on the Singapore training proposal suggests to me (on a quick skim though) that NZ was unwilling to pay the relatively modest costs of ungrading Ohakea to the standard required by Singapore, even though NZ would have also benefited from the improvements. Put simply, we just didn't want the deal strongly enough to pay our share. Which is a depressing thought, given our good relationship with Singapore and the much-stated desire from every government to strengthen NZ's links into SE Asia,

 

[Rob c]

From the air force perspective I believe the Woodbourne is woefully underutilized and comments about returning training aircraft to the base makes sense. Leased rotary trainers should be acquired freeing the A/LUH for military functions from Ohakea. This could then be the primary air training base for thw RNZAF.

Back in the 1990's there were plans to move the pilot training to Woodbourne, these were quite advanced and would have proceeded had the F16's come to NZ. The requirement was dropped with the disbandment of strike wing, but I assume that with some tweeks it would not be hard to reintroduce them. Any attempt to enlarge Woodborne I would thik would be expensive as it is surrounded by high value grape vines, but I think its current footprint is large enough to accommodate a significant expansion.

 

[MrConservative]

Ron Mark means well, but I don't think he has the clout to bring home the bacon. Getting the P-8s was a significant achievement, but I fear the attitude for the remainder of this Parliament's term will be 'You've had your share'. The repeated delays in publishing the Defence Capability Plan are a bad omen.

The material published on the Singapore training proposal suggests to me (on a quick skim though) that NZ was unwilling to pay the relatively modest costs of ungrading Ohakea to the standard required by Singapore, even though NZ would have also benefited from the improvements. Put simply, we just didn't want the deal strongly enough to pay our share. Which is a depressing thought, given our good relationship with Singapore and the much-stated desire from every government to strengthen NZ's links into SE Asia,

You are on the money 40South. That is exactly what a recent minister of the Crown said is the issue here and that his side were very willing to make it happen, though now they have new leadership with the spin of a jellyfish ... so who knows.

 

[htbrst]

You are on the money 40South. That is exactly what a recent minister of the Crown said is the issue here and that his side were very willing to make it happen, though now they have new leadership with the spin of a jellyfish ... so who knows.

Never mind that you would have thought much of the spend could have come from the vaunted regional development fund being in the regions and all, but realistically the spend would not gain them any votes in the Rangitīkei electorate.

I always though Napier could be a good commercial/military hub based with the airport at the northern end of the city with few and far between populations between there and the low flying areas toward Waiouru - coupled with the port to embark things to ships and still quite close to Ohakea/Linton. Maybe New Plymouth could work too but the weather is better on the East coast