Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Catalina

Member
RNZN DRIVES OFF INDONESIAN SUBMARINES

Q1 - Depends if you mean on the surface by "seen" :) For the rest of your question such matters are typically subject to operational security (OPSEC) and are not discussed as a matter of practice, and often not even disclosed to the rest of the ships company on frigates. There are two publicly disclosed events where the RNZN has either detected or being part of task force that has detected a submarine since the end of Cold War - in both cases they occurred in East Timor.
Thank you Luxasnz for pointing me in the right direction. May I ask if the two events were:

(1) HMNZS Canterbury detecting an Indonesian submarine off Oecussi; and
(2) HMNZS Canterbury detecting an Indonesian submarine off Suai



A description of the Oecussi detection is reported on the Torpedo Bay Navy Museum

The Commander of HMNZS Canterbury reported that in 1999 during the East Timor INTERFET Operation Intelligence had not directly stated the submarine threat but "we were all aware of the Indonesian force capability in this area with 209 and 206 type subs and were not going to take chances. . . Canterbury stumbled on a submarine contact while working with HMAS SYDNEY off the Oecussi enclave. We have no way of evaluating what the contact may have been"

A description of the RNZN Suai detection is reported by the Sydney Morning Herald

"Indonesian submarines and combat aircraft shadowed so closely ships carrying Australian and New Zealand troops into East Timor in 1999 that escorting warships went onto full battle stations alert"

"tensions caused by Indonesian deployments of submarines, missile-boats and fighters"

The Indonesian Navy's two German-built Type 209 submarines appeared around East Timor and the air force deployed aircraft, including a small number of fighters, to West Timor, from where they adopted "aggressive probing tactics".

"The submarines shadowed the Interfet fleet, with one of them detected by the frigate HMNZS Canterbury close to the landing of New Zealand soldiers at Suai."

"The submarine contacts were passed on to defence headquarters in Canberra, which took them up with Jakarta. "In response, and once the Australian higher level commanders had provided information on the location of the submarines that was convincing, the appropriate TNI commander admitted his submarines had been deployed and agreed to retire them from the area"

 
Last edited:

Catalina

Member
NEW ZEALAND UNDER NAVAL ATTACK
ENEMY COMBATANTS WHICH VIOLATED NEW ZEALAND WATERS & AIRSPACE

Thank you Ngatimozart for the information on I-25 and SteveR for the U-862 information. Desiring to learn more I went to a bookshop and purchased an excellent book called The Enemy on the New Zealand Coast by Gerry Wright along with a collection of other naval books. From that book and further research I have complied this following list which may be of interest to New Zealand Navy and Defence aficionados.



5 WARSHIPS

SMS Wolf (1913) German 11,200 ton auxiliary cruiser.
Violated New Zealand waters in May and June 1917.

Orion (1930) German 15,700 ton auxiliary cruiser.
Violated New Zealand waters in June, August, September and November 1940 and March 1941.

Komet (1937) German 7,500 ton auxiliary cruiser.
Violated New Zealand waters in November 1940 and June 1941.

Kulmerland (1928) 7,363 ton German supply ship.
Violated New Zealand waters in November 1940.

KMS Adjutant (1937) a 354 ton Norweigian whale catcher, formerly known as the Pol IX, captured on 14 January 1941 by KMS Pinguin (1936) a 7,766 ton German raider.
Violated New Zealand waters in June 1941.

3 SUBMARINES

I-25 (1940) Japanese B-1 Type submarine (3,654 tons).
Violated New Zealand waters in March 1942.

I-21 (1940) Japanese B-1 Type submarine (3,713 tons).
Violated New Zealand waters in May 1942.

U-862 (1943) German Type IXD2 U-boat (1,799 tons).
Violated New Zealand waters in January 1945.

4 AIRCRAFT

1xFriedrichshafen FF.33 'Little Wolf' floatplane (1,635kg, 150hp).
Violated New Zealand airspace in May and June 1917.

1xArdo Ar196 floatplane (2,990kg, 947hp).
Violated New Zealand airspace in June 1940.

2xYokosuka E14Y "Glen" floatplane (1,450 kg, 340hp).
Violated New Zealand Airspace in March and May 1942.



Would love to write a book entitled New Zealand Under Naval Attack - past, present and future, so if anyone has anything to contribute I would love to hear from you thank you.
 
Last edited:

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
(1) The HMNZS Canterbury detecting an Indonesian submarine off Oecussi; and
(2) The HMNZS Canterbury detecting an Indonesian submarine off Suai
Please don’t put the word “the” before a ship’s name if you include the prefix “HMNZS” (or HMAS, USS etc) - it grates terribly on Naval ears. If you spell out the acronym you will see why. If you just use the name without the prefix (so, the Canterbury), “the” is OK, although still not good usage; people in the Service would just say “Canterbury”.
 
Last edited:

Catalina

Member
Good morning Spoz.

Thank you for your valuable advice and patient instruction.
My apologies. Rectified as instructed. Taken to heart.

Yours aye
Catalina
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
No problem, if you haven't been in Pussers, the Mob or the Andrew (all nicknames for the Navy - respectively the Commonwealth generally, the RAN and the RN; the RNZN almost certainly also has a nickname for itself) you wouldn't know; and the ignorance of our current generation of media on such matters which is legendary, at least to us in uniform, doesn't help those not "in". There is a whole arcane language and usage that most people will never come across, and which indeed evolves over time. So in my generation, we always said "in" a ship, never "on" it ( because you didn't spend all your time on the upper deck); and the word "goffa" for example has a least three, quite distinct meanings - a soft drink, a salute or a smack in the face!
 

Kiwigov

Member
1xArdo Ar196 floatplane (2,990kg, 947hp).
Violated New Zealand airspace in June 1942.
Just a question - given this type of aircraft was only launched from German warships (not from any U-boat design, afaik), then what could have been the German ship still operating around NZ in June 1942? I couldn't see any indicated at that time period in your list, and all the German surface raiders had been hunted down by then
 
No problem, if you haven't been in Pussers, the Mob or the Andrew (all nicknames for the Navy - respectively the Commonwealth generally, the RAN and the RN; the RNZN almost certainly also has a nickname for itself) you wouldn't know; and the ignorance of our current generation of media on such matters which is legendary, at least to us in uniform, doesn't help those not "in". There is a whole arcane language and usage that most people will never come across, and which indeed evolves over time. So in my generation, we always said "in" a ship, never "on" it ( because you didn't spend all your time on the upper deck); and the word "goffa" for example has a least three, quite distinct meanings - a soft drink, a salute or a smack in the face!
Thanks for that spoz, I love learning about the certain nuances of particular things, like this, which you can only generally find out from those who have been at the coal face.

Cheers mate.
 

Catalina

Member
Just a question - given this type of aircraft was only launched from German warships (not from any U-boat design, afaik), then what could have been the German ship still operating around NZ in June 1942? I couldn't see any indicated at that time period in your list, and all the German surface raiders had been hunted down by then
Good evening Kiwgov. Well spotted thank you. the Arado Ar196 was used by the German raider Orion in June 1940. She was damaged while being lowered by hoist and then capsized when alighting on the 16th of June with engine and radio damage. The industrious Orion crew repaired her though and she took part in operations off Noumea.
 
Last edited:

Catalina

Member
ARCANE NAVAL SPEAK

spoz said:
No problem, if you haven't been in Pussers, the Mob or the Andrew (all nicknames for the Navy - respectively the Commonwealth generally, the RAN and the RN; the RNZN almost certainly also has a nickname for itself) you wouldn't know; and the ignorance of our current generation of media on such matters which is legendary, at least to us in uniform, doesn't help those not "in". There is a whole arcane language and usage that most people will never come across, and which indeed evolves over time. So in my generation, we always said "in" a ship, never "on" it ( because you didn't spend all your time on the upper deck); and the word "goffa" for example has a least three, quite distinct meanings - a soft drink, a salute or a smack in the face!

Thank you spoz for the insights. Can we grow this list please :)

  • goffa: a saluate, a smack in the face, a soft drink
  • in a ship: (not on a ship)
  • Pussers: Commonwealth Navies
  • the Andrew: Royal Navy
  • the Mob: Royal Australian Navy
  • Yours aye: "Yours always" (used in the Pussers as a sign-off in written communication)
 
Last edited:

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ARCANE NAVAL SPEAK

spoz said:
No problem, if you haven't been in Pussers, the Mob or the Andrew (all nicknames for the Navy - respectively the Commonwealth generally, the RAN and the RN; the RNZN almost certainly also has a nickname for itself) you wouldn't know; and the ignorance of our current generation of media on such matters which is legendary, at least to us in uniform, doesn't help those not "in". There is a whole arcane language and usage that most people will never come across, and which indeed evolves over time. So in my generation, we always said "in" a ship, never "on" it ( because you didn't spend all your time on the upper deck); and the word "goffa" for example has a least three, quite distinct meanings - a soft drink, a salute or a smack in the face!

Thank you spoz for the insights. Can we grow this list please :)

  • goffa: a saluate, a smack in the face, a soft drink
  • in a ship: (not on a ship)
  • Pussers: Commonwealth Navies
  • the Andrew: Royal Navy
  • the Mob: Royal Australian Navy
  • Yours aye: "Yours always" (used in the Pussers as a sign-off in written communication)
The most arcane phrase that sticks with me was used when signing off official correspondence to a superior/senior officer, reports such as the monthly “Report of Proceedings” for a ship or establishment.
“I remain Sir, your obedient servant”
Name
Rank
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ARCANE NAVAL SPEAK

spoz said:
No problem, if you haven't been in Pussers, the Mob or the Andrew (all nicknames for the Navy - respectively the Commonwealth generally, the RAN and the RN; the RNZN almost certainly also has a nickname for itself) you wouldn't know; and the ignorance of our current generation of media on such matters which is legendary, at least to us in uniform, doesn't help those not "in". There is a whole arcane language and usage that most people will never come across, and which indeed evolves over time. So in my generation, we always said "in" a ship, never "on" it ( because you didn't spend all your time on the upper deck); and the word "goffa" for example has a least three, quite distinct meanings - a soft drink, a salute or a smack in the face!

Thank you spoz for the insights. Can we grow this list please :)

  • goffa: a saluate, a smack in the face, a soft drink
  • in a ship: (not on a ship)
  • Pussers: Commonwealth Navies
  • the Andrew: Royal Navy
  • the Mob: Royal Australian Navy
  • Yours aye: "Yours always" (used in the Pussers as a sign-off in written communication)
This is one version of Jack Speak. 'Jack Speak' - A Sailors Dictionary | GUN PLOT Some of those I used, but not many. Quite a few we had that aren't on that list.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That bow is really interesting. They have effectively extended the hull out over a bulbous bow. I like the enclosed bow, it would make for a more comfortable trip up Otago Harbour, when the 1pm wind starts up - though that beast will never get past Port Chalmers.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That bow is really interesting. They have effectively extended the hull out over a bulbous bow. I like the enclosed bow, it would make for a more comfortable trip up Otago Harbour, when the 1pm wind starts up - though that beast will never get past Port Chalmers.
It's the Rolls Royce Environship leadge bow.

The ship’s ‘axe’ bow is a design feature that displaces water more efficiently, creating less drag. “We’ve designed it to be more fuel-efficient,” says CDR Tiller. “[The bow] reduces the amount of pressure waves coming off the hull, which is useful when ships come up alongside.”
...
Aside from the bespoke Environship concept design, the Rolls-Royce scope of supply is extensive and includes a Combined Diesel Electric and Diesel (CODLAD) propulsion plant based on twin Bergen main engines. These will each drive, via reduction gears, a controllable pitch propeller. Rolls-Royce will also supply the propeller shafts.

Electrical power will be supplied by Rolls-Royce in the form of four MTU gensets from Rolls-Royce Power Systems, which will also provide power to the Rolls-Royce supplied switchboards, motors, drives, bow thruster and the electric RAS/FAS system, which allows for simpler and quieter replenishment/fuelling-at-sea operations. Rotary vane steering gear and rudders form part of a stand-alone package.

Ben Dunscombe, Rolls-Royce Programme Executive, Asia, who is responsible for the delivery of the project, said: “We have pooled our resources across Rolls-Royce to bring together a unique array of our equipment to meet the specification. To meet the high winterisation and Polar Code 6 requirements, propellers and the main and auxiliary engines will be slightly larger.”
Source: HMNZS Aotearoa Logistics Support Vessel

So Rolls Royce have quite a significant involvement in the design of the ship. I think Aotearoa is the first naval vessel with this concept, but there have been civilian vessels built utilising this concept during the last six or so years, Environship News - MarineLink. I am given to understand that it also has significant savings in fuel costs.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
It's the Rolls Royce Environship leadge bow.

The ship’s ‘axe’ bow is a design feature that displaces water more efficiently, creating less drag. “We’ve designed it to be more fuel-efficient,” says CDR Tiller. “[The bow] reduces the amount of pressure waves coming off the hull, which is useful when ships come up alongside.”
...
Aside from the bespoke Environship concept design, the Rolls-Royce scope of supply is extensive and includes a Combined Diesel Electric and Diesel (CODLAD) propulsion plant based on twin Bergen main engines. These will each drive, via reduction gears, a controllable pitch propeller. Rolls-Royce will also supply the propeller shafts.

Electrical power will be supplied by Rolls-Royce in the form of four MTU gensets from Rolls-Royce Power Systems, which will also provide power to the Rolls-Royce supplied switchboards, motors, drives, bow thruster and the electric RAS/FAS system, which allows for simpler and quieter replenishment/fuelling-at-sea operations. Rotary vane steering gear and rudders form part of a stand-alone package.

Ben Dunscombe, Rolls-Royce Programme Executive, Asia, who is responsible for the delivery of the project, said: “We have pooled our resources across Rolls-Royce to bring together a unique array of our equipment to meet the specification. To meet the high winterisation and Polar Code 6 requirements, propellers and the main and auxiliary engines will be slightly larger.”
Source: HMNZS Aotearoa Logistics Support Vessel

So Rolls Royce have quite a significant involvement in the design of the ship. I think Aotearoa is the first naval vessel with this concept, but there have been civilian vessels built utilising this concept during the last six or so years, Environship News - MarineLink. I am given to understand that it also has significant savings in fuel costs.
Isn't often one can boast they drive a Rolls Royce as their day job, even if it is a bit on the large side, lucky buggers :)
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Latest post from RNZN Facebook page with photo of Aotearoa. Looks like they are close to flooding the dry dock with the formal launch in two weeks. 'Keel laying' was nine months ago, so it doesn't seem have taken that long to reach this stage.

Here's hoping Hyundai do a better job putting her together than their countrymen did with the Tide Class, one of them was at Cammell Lairds recently, one of the electrical contractors I know said he hasn't seen worse wiring since he did up his old Triumph Herald's Lucas electrics.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
With RNZN being without a tanker for so long now, how is that affecting operations? Considering our nearest ally Austraila is having theirs too built around the same time, or do they still have one in service we could rely on?
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The RAN presently has two in service, Success and Sirius. Success pays off in about June (she’s 33 years old) however Supply is due to arrive in Australia late this year sometime, and Stalwart in 2020. There is a fuel exchange agreement between Australia and NZ.
 

CJohn

Active Member
The RAN presently has two in service, Success and Sirius. Success pays off in about June (she’s 33 years old) however Supply is due to arrive in Australia late this year sometime, and Stalwart in 2020. There is a fuel exchange agreement between Australia and NZ.
Gord, that makes me feel a bit long in the tooth. I worked at Cockatoo Island Dockyard and did builders sea trails on Success before she joined the RAN back in the day.
 

pea032

New Member
I cant imagine not having a tanker is affecting operations to much - We are effectively a no frigate navy at the moment. Te Kaha was supposed to be handed back end of Feb, but I haven't heard anything of that? But she was not going to be back home until around Christmas anyway
 
Top