Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[seaspear]

The surface to surface missiles like the N.S.M and L.R.A.S.M can be launched via the VLS system as well as aircraft , there is also the SM-6 which has an ability for both aaw and ssw , these wont be cheap and its possible that when New Zealand commences the build of the replacement for the ANZAC class there will be further options

 

[ngatimozart]

NSM is likely to become the Harpoon replacement for western navies looking for more range and more punch. As you noted its availability in multiple numbers of launchers means it can be incorporated on almost any sized vessel.

Hopefully the RNZN gets such a system even if only a handful to allow it to gain experience before the replacement for the ANZACs arrives in 15 years. Even two twin packs would fit the forecastle area which appears to be void of any systems.

And if others spend the money to integrate JSM onto the P8 a joint buy for the RNZAF and the RNZN makes perfect sense .

The two who would most likely look at such an integration of the JSM would be Norway and Australia with the UK a possible third. If the RAAF and the RAF were to undertake such an integration then the RNZAF would undoubtedly follow suit.

Thank you Redlands18 and Novascotiaboy for your replies.

Yes Redlands18 there is lots of valubale information in this thread which I am gratefully reading through. Lots of interesting replacement options for our ANZAC class frigates are discussed. I hope that their replacement will include SSM capability and wonder if the Defence Force has been pushing for that capability to be so included?

With deck mounted NSM having a total installation weight, including electronics and cabling of less than one ton per launcher, and the ability to be purchased in 1,2,4,8 or 12 launcher packs, and the 400kg missiles themselves having a 100nm range they sound like an interesting solution thank you Novascotiaboy. I wonder if this option has been considered for our current frigates?

Until the RNZN has an ability to project power over the horizon by carrying SSM it seems debatable if the current composition of the Navy could fulfil its maritime combat mission in a contested environment.

Welcome aboard @Catalina Your first post was very well thought out, as is your second.

I think that the RNZN / NZDF would have suggested more than once to the pollies that our frigates require a SSM capability, but the pollies answer would have been that why you have helicopters. My thinking is that the pollies have two reasons; the main one being cost - as always, and the second, political pandering to those within our population who don't like the thought of NZ having SSMs of any form. So the combination of both have made SSM persona non grata in the pollies eyes for NZDF. The previous govt would have refused a SSM capability purely on cost grounds and the current one will, purely on ideological grounds, especially the Labour and Green component of it.

As to the NZ Future Frigate, it would be hoped that the GOTD that does eventually approve the final design and build, authorises at least three ships with a goodly number if VLS and SSM etc. We can but live in hope, but I ain't holding my breathe.

 

[ngatimozart]

The surface to surface missiles like the N.S.M and L.R.A.S.M can be launched via the VLS system as well as aircraft , there is also the SM-6 which has an ability for both aaw and ssw , these wont be cheap and its possible that when New Zealand commences the build of the replacement for the ANZAC class there will be further options

Using SM-6 as ASuW missile isn't a cheap option when other cheaper and more suitable missiles are available. In my view if it was used in this case, it would be as a last ditch weapon.

 

[seaspear]

The reason I suggested the SM-6 is with a limited amount of VLS and loadout on smaller ships it could give options ,the payload is smaller of course than the other missiles mentioned and unlikely to have the other capabilities of attacking a target

 

[KiwiRob]

I live very close to where Viking Sky is currently in trouble, I was at my brother in laws yesterday, he also lives very close, the first vessel out was a coast guard vessel, followed by 4 offshore vessels, also two offshore salvage tugs from Bergen and Trondheim were en route, this got me thinking what would we do in NZ if a similar incident happened off our coast? We don’t have a coast guard, we don’t have offshore salvage tugs based in NZ, we don’t have SAR helicopters. In short we would be pretty well screwed.

As a maritime nation we are not well prepared for any kind of maritime emergency.

 

[MrConservative]

I live very close to where Viking Sky is currently in trouble, I was at my brother in laws yesterday, he also lives very close, the first vessel out was a coast guard vessel, followed by 4 offshore vessels, also two offshore salvage tugs from Bergen and Trondheim were en route, this got me thinking what would we do in NZ if a similar incident happened off our coast? We don’t have a coast guard, we don’t have offshore salvage tugs based in NZ, we don’t have SAR helicopters. In short we would be pretty well screwed.

As a maritime nation we are not well prepared for any kind of maritime emergency.

Hey Rob. You have been out of the country too long. That is not the Kiwi way. You are thinking like a sensible person.

The first rule is that nothing bad will happen to us because we are so fantastic and if we tell everyone and everything that, nothing bad will ever happen. Second rule is to never plan for emergencies and disasters or contemplate what if's because that would be tempting fate and go against our beliefs about rule one. Rule three is never spend anymore on anything actually important unless it is the absolute minimum that you can get away with.

 

[John Fedup]

Similar rules apply to Canada’s west coast. The situation is only marginally better but we have the same fallback position as national defence; the US will have our six for this as well.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

NZ has already had a cruise ship sink as well as a ferry both very close to shore, but these were both a half century ago.

Let’s fast forward to 2019. Both frigates are out of the country. Only three helicopter capable vessels currently available. No dedicated dive vessel in country or available. The oil and gas industry has been hamstrung from future drilling operations thus likely downsizing its capabilities. As Kiwi Rob said things would be bad.

Plausible solutions. Government buys or leases or contracts a fleet of dedicated SAR / government general duty tasking helicopters and stations them around the country.

A dedicated coast guard be created using offshore supply ships modified for task similar to what is being done with Edda Fonn for the RNZN and the Viking ships for the CCGS. Base these vessels in Tauranga and Dunedin and have them tasked with SAR, MPI and DOC support relieving the OPVs of these tasks.

Up gun the OPVs with a 40 mm mount the same as the new OZ OPVs. Use the OPVs to provide forward support to the islands.

 

[KiwiRob]

Mikhail Lermontov sank in 86, there’s been a few other incidents where a salvage tug could have been used.

I also found out my bro in law has been on Edda Fonn, our new ship, he said she was sold because she’s too small for the job she was built for these days.

One of her former fleet mates was dispatched to help Viking Sky yesterday.

 

[ngatimozart]

NZ has already had a cruise ship sink as well as a ferry both very close to shore, but these were both a half century ago.

Let’s fast forward to 2019. Both frigates are out of the country. Only three helicopter capable vessels currently available. No dedicated dive vessel in country or available. The oil and gas industry has been hamstrung from future drilling operations thus likely downsizing its capabilities. As Kiwi Rob said things would be bad.

Plausible solutions. Government buys or leases or contracts a fleet of dedicated SAR / government general duty tasking helicopters and stations them around the country.

A dedicated coast guard be created using offshore supply ships modified for task similar to what is being done with Edda Fonn for the RNZN and the Viking ships for the CCGS. Base these vessels in Tauranga and Dunedin and have them tasked with SAR, MPI and DOC support relieving the OPVs of these tasks.

Up gun the OPVs with a 40 mm mount the same as the new OZ OPVs. Use the OPVs to provide forward support to the islands.

Nope, would involve govt having to spend money; c.f., Mr C's post above.

The Kiwi Way.
The first rule is that nothing bad will happen to us because we are so fantastic and if we tell everyone and everything that, nothing bad will ever happen.
Second rule is to never plan for emergencies and disasters or contemplate what if's because that would be tempting fate and go against our beliefs about rule one.
Rule three is never spend anymore on anything actually important unless it is the absolute minimum that you can get away with.

So there you have it.

 

[Catalina]

Could someone please enlighten me as to the status of the Defence Capability Plan Review of 2018 please?

I understand that on 7th December 2018 the Terms of Reference for the Defence Capability Plan Review 2018 were released but I have not heard of the details of the actual Defence Capability Plan itself.

Section 4 of the Terms of Reference confirmed that on 2017 Dec 14 the Minister of Defence wrote to the Prime Minister requesting a review of the Defence Capability plan with a $20 billion capital envelope out to 2030.

Given that The Defence Capability Plan of 2018 is predicated on the July 2018 Strategic Defence Policy Statement wherein China is mentioned 31 times as of central strategic importance (p.14), a massive increase up from the 10 times China was referred to in the 2016 Defence White Paper, it will be interesting to see how the Defence Capability Plan Review of 2018 allocates resources to the RNZN to oppose the Communist China threat it correctly identified.

USN Navy Capt. Jim Fanell, the former Pacific Fleet intelligence chief, in his testimony to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence eloquently summed up the threat our Te Taua Moana o Aotearoa are facing and must prepare for thusly:

The Chinese Communist Party is engaged in a total, protracted struggle for regional and global supremacy.

 

[MrConservative]

Could someone please enlighten me as to the status of the Defence Capability Plan Review of 2018 please?

I understand that on 7th December 2018 the Terms of Reference for the Defence Capability Plan Review 2018 were released but I have not heard of the details of the actual Defence Capability Plan itself.

Section 4 of the Terms of Reference confirmed that on 2017 Dec 14 the Minister of Defence wrote to the Prime Minister requesting a review of the Defence Capability plan with a $20 billion capital envelope out to 2030.

Given that The Defence Capability Plan of 2018 is predicated on the July 2018 Strategic Defence Policy Statement wherein China is mentioned 31 times as of central strategic importance (p.14), a massive increase up from the 10 times China was referred to in the 2016 Defence White Paper, it will be interesting to see how the Defence Capability Plan Review of 2018 allocates resources to the RNZN to oppose the Communist China threat it correctly identified.

USN Navy Capt. Jim Fanell, the former Pacific Fleet intelligence chief, in his testimony to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence eloquently summed up the threat our Te Taua Moana o Aotearoa are facing and must prepare for thusly:

The Chinese Communist Party is engaged in a total, protracted struggle for regional and global supremacy.

No details as yet because it has not been released. Can you remember any major NZ Defence document other the Annual Report of June 30 ever being released on time in recent years? I would be surprised to see it before the budget (But hope it is) but expect to see it before the next Annual Report has to be tabled by June 30.

I am sure you have seen the TOR

https://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/TOR-DCP-Review-2018.pdf

I personally do not expect much deviation from DWP 2016, PRC name-checking aside. As usual it will heavily bright-line capability requirements against costs and GOTD fiscal position.

 

[Catalina]

Thank you for your reply MrConservative. Yes I have read the TOR and no I can not remember any major NZ Defence document other than the June 30th Annual report ever being released on time, but as Grandad would say, one lives in hope

 

[40 deg south]

NZDF - Service Publications

March editions of all three service publications out now.

Navy Today probably has the most content of the bunch. One minor point though - in an article about increasing recruit numbers, the various 'new' ships entering service soon are listed - the two upgraded ANZACs, Manawanui and Aotearoa. No mention of the third ice-class OPV...

Death of RNZN Sailor

In what sounds like a tragic accident, a trainee diver died at Devonport a few days ago.

 

[t68]

Death of RNZN Sailor

In what sounds like a tragic accident, a trainee diver died at Devonport a few days ago.

Condolences to the diver's family and friends

 

[Catalina]

Beneath The Waves . . .

The Kriegsmarine began hostilities with 24 ocean going U-boats out of a total of 56 underseaboat.
The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked the West with 63 ocean going sensuikan (潜水艦 ).

Last month the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agencyreportedthat the Peoples Liberation Army Navy's submarine force will probably 'increase to about 70 submarines' from a force already comprising currently comprises 60 qián shuǐ tǐng (潜水艇).

Q1. Was curious if a RNZN vessel has ever detected or seen a PLAN submarine?

Q2. How effective/equipped/experienced is our Royal New Zealand Navy at ASW?

Thank you all for your thoughts.

 

[Lucasnz]

Last month the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agencyreportedthat the Peoples Liberation Army Navy's submarine force will probably 'increase to about 70 submarines' from a force currently comprising 6 nuclear attack submarines, 4 nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, and 50 diesel attack submarines.

Q1. Was curious if a RNZN vessel has ever detected or seen a PLAN submarine?

Q2. How effective/equipped/experienced is our Royal New Zealand Navy at ASW?

Thank you all for your thoughts.

Q1 - Depends if you mean on the surface by "seen" For the rest of your question such matters are typically subject to operational security (OPSEC) and are not discussed as a matter of practice, and often not even disclosed to the rest of the ships company on frigates. There are two publicly disclosed events where the RNZN has either detected or being part of task force that has detected a submarine since the end of Cold War - in both cases they occurred in East Timor.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Naval Today is reporting that Edda Fonn has departed Norway enroute for Devonport. Safe travels.

New Zealand Navy’s new diving support vessel starts journey from Norway

 

[ngatimozart]

Beneath The Waves . . .

The Kriegsmarine began hostilities with 24 ocean going U-boats out of a total of 56 underseaboat.
The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked the West with 63 ocean going sensuikan (潜水艦 ).

Last month the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agencyreportedthat the Peoples Liberation Army Navy's submarine force will probably 'increase to about 70 submarines' from a force already comprising currently comprises 60 qián shuǐ tǐng (潜水艇).

Q1. Was curious if a RNZN vessel has ever detected or seen a PLAN submarine?

Q2. How effective/equipped/experienced is our Royal New Zealand Navy at ASW?

Thank you all for your thoughts.

In WW2 we had a visit from IJN Submarine I-25 during March 1942.

At 0300 hours local on 8th March 1942, Japanese submarine I-25 launched a reconnaissance aircraft, 5 miles off the Wellington Lighthouse to observe Wellington Harbour. The mission was successful with the aircraft successfully recovered. Then at 0230 hours NZST on 13th March 1942 the aircraft was launched to observe and record shipping in Auckland Harbour (Waitemata). Meanwhile the submarine had spotted 20,000 ton merchant ship which was hunted and attacked after successful recovery of the aircraft. The ship was claimed as sunk. The previous day the submarine underwent a depth charge attack in the Hauraki Gulf.

Source: Hackett, B., & Kingsepp, S. (2002 - 2013). SENSUIKAN! IJN I-25: Tabular Record of Movement Retrieved 6 June 2015, from Imperial Submarines.​

There are also unconfirmed reports of a Kreigsmarine U-Boat in NZ waters in 1945. Finally just to reinforce Lucas's post, ASW tactics, strategies, contacts, etc., have a high level of OPSEC on them and as such are never discussed in open forums.

 

[SteveR]

In WW2 we had a visit from IJN Submarine I-25 during March 1942.

.​

There are also unconfirmed reports of a Kreigsmarine U-Boat in NZ waters in 1945. Finally just to reinforce Lucas's post, ASW tactics, strategies, contacts, etc., have a high level of OPSEC on them and as such are never discussed in open forums.

.

U-862 is recorded as the U Boat that sailed from Batavia (now Jakarta) down around Western Australia across the Bite to NZ then back again:

German submarine U-862 - Wikipedia

Note that even a play was produced about the event and staged in Wellington!!