General Aviation Thread

2007yellow430

Active Member
I know the speed from current Airliner are determined much on economics of fuel consumption, then the need to reach destination faster.

However, compared to Convair 880 and 990 in the 50's and 60's..which were conventional designs and non supersonics..current Airliner cruising speed are still 10% slower than those two. Granted those Convair jets were relatively thirsty even compared to their rivals 707 and DC8..still 50 years onward..the current state of the art engine can't produce cruising speed that are comparable.

The longest route by SQ using A-350 from Sing to NY take close to 20 hours..if there's Airliner that can fly economically (on current standard) with those Convair cruising speed, my own rough calculation shown it can get with close to 18 hours..

I know it all back to the economics of fuel consumption..still..50 years on ward and the average speed of present Airliner is getting slower instead faster.

Can a blended body-wing design with current engine provide faster cruising speed ?
Best you are going to get is Mach .925. Once you get closer to the speed of sound, the more resistance you get. Supersonic burns gas big time. You also have to go high. All of which burns fuel. Cost will keep the speed down, unless you have lots of money.

Art
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Best you are going to get is Mach .925. Once you get closer to the speed of sound, the more resistance you get. Supersonic burns gas big time. You also have to go high. All of which burns fuel. Cost will keep the speed down, unless you have lots of money.

Art
Yes it is. But that's my point, those Convair's cruising at Mach 0.9-0.92, while current Airliner cruising at Mach 0.8-0.85..

What I'm getting at, due to pressure for economically flight..the current engine and fuselage designed on cruising on that speed. Just wondering if other design and current engine can be found to Cruising at same cruising speed of Those Convair, but still maintain level of current economics..
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Yes it is. But that's my point, those Convair's cruising at Mach 0.9-0.92, while current Airliner cruising at Mach 0.8-0.85..

What I'm getting at, due to pressure for economically flight..the current engine and fuselage designed on cruising on that speed. Just wondering if other design and current engine can be found to Cruising at same cruising speed of Those Convair, but still maintain level of current economics..
The fact is that Transonic/Supersonic travel is just not Economical enough, even more that there are no Supersonic Airliners, there are no Supersonic Transport Aircraft of any type including Buissness Jets, Military Transports, EW/Specialist Platforms(other than converted Combat Aircraft) despite all the advantages such a Platform would bring.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
There are a couple of companies working on smaller supersonic jets that might have reduced sonic boom performance thus allowing overland operation. Possible market for supersonic business jets but for general aviation the economics don’t work. The new Bombardier 7500 has a claimed specification of 0.925 Mach with a 7700 nm range.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
606 ? Well it also can be that..Airbus used C series as 1 digit down from their own line. Boeing can do the same with E series.

I don't know how this 737 MAX developed further, it can be temporary glitch or it can developed farther than Boeing anticipate.
I know E series is not in same class with 737 Max, but if some customers loosing confidence with MAX, can they look to E series as potential alternative ?

I mean C series/ A220 already take some customers away from A319/A320..Baltic Air told in media their original plan for A319 being switched to A220.
Can similar thing happen to 737 customers ?

It's a bit far fetched..but some customers/countries are begin to question will Boeing plan modifications to those grounded MAX will be enough mitigation..
One thing for sure A320/321 line already fully booked for few years ahead, while MC21 and C919 are not ready yet (however this situation can fasten some Chinese airlines to switch to C919).
I don't think Airbus minds if it loses A319 customers. It's sold hardly any A319neo (double figures), but thousands of A320neo & A321neo. The economics of a shrunken A320neo don't appear to be very good, while the A220 is right for that size range. It dropped the A318 a few years ago.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I don't think Airbus minds if it loses A319 customers. It's sold hardly any A319neo (double figures), but thousands of A320neo & A321neo. The economics of a shrunken A320neo don't appear to be very good, while the A220 is right for that size range. It dropped the A318 a few years ago.
Wouldn’t be surprised if they dropped the A319 as well and concentrated on the A220-300 as they are basically competing against each other.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
A rather troubling article about the FAA and Boeing regarding the certification process for the 737 MAX and in particular its MCAS system. Seems to me the competitive pressures to get a product out the door are partly to blame for this. The larger engines required a different position which changed the flight character so much that the MCAS became necessary. Only one AoA sensor and minimal training info ( one hour on an iPAd!). No wonder a grand jury has been convened. It could very well be that the entire aircraft may need recertification, not just the new MCAS software.

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Wouldn’t be surprised if they dropped the A319 as well and concentrated on the A220-300 as they are basically competing against each other.
Nor me. The only point to it I can see now is fleet commonality for A320/A321 operators, & given the few A319neo orders, that doesn't seem to be attracting customers.

The first A220 I flew in (31st December) was owned by an airline which also has A319, A320 & A321. The handful of A319s are the oldest aircraft it owns, & I think they're due to be replaced by more A220s.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Three Airlines, Three Very Different Approaches To 737 MAX Tragedy - Live and Let's Fly

Three airlines of Max 8 users, with different potential action toward Max 8 problem.
Garuda will probably cancelled the rest of Max 8 order, Dubai which stated they will stay with Max 8, and Norwegian that shown their resentment toward Boeing, and probably will ask compensation.

On Garuda, this article told 20 Max 8 order will be cancelled. However from local Media stated actually total Garuda Max 8 order is 50.
From Garuda source I got info that (as article saying) that they will change order from Max 8 to Wide Bodies Airliner with potential 787 or combo 787 and 777.
Interestingly, there are probability they will also switch their wide body preference from A330 Neo to 787, thus potentially their A330 Neo order will also be change to A320 Neo.

If this happens, then means another Airliner drops A330 Neo to 787. Interesting change of Fortune where in this class before 767 was loosing to A330, while so far A330 Neo falling behind 787.

While if Garuda do change their narrow body preference from 787 Max to A320 Neo, then it's also make sense logistically since it's low cost subsidiary CityLink already use A320/A320 Neo.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My cousin is a Pilot with Garuda, and he told me the new guidance from Boeing in MAX is to reset to manual mode if there's problem with speed indicators that can cause stall condition (since the computer can self corrected the engine power, to faulty input which can cause stall). After they reset to manual mode, the problem gone.

They are practicing like that in simulator and seems other Airlines that used MAX being practise same thing in their respective simulator.
I'm not a pilot..but I can't wondering seems to me that kind of training eventough important, is a temporary remedies until Boeing can update their software problem.
I heard on the news here that Garuda is cancelling its 70 unit order for the new aircraft, is that report also there?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro

2007yellow430

Active Member
A rather troubling article about the FAA and Boeing regarding the certification process for the 737 MAX and in particular its MCAS system. Seems to me the competitive pressures to get a product out the door are partly to blame for this. The larger engines required a different position which changed the flight character so much that the MCAS became necessary. Only one AoA sensor and minimal training info ( one hour on an iPAd!). No wonder a grand jury has been convened. It could very well be that the entire aircraft may need recertification, not just the new MCAS software.

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system
You’ll note that there hasn’t been a US flagged 737-8 MAX, that has had trouble. There are three ways to shut the system off. In the US and other first tier countries, this is one of the things that they test in the simulator (twice a year for pilots). Third tier countries don’t have that luxury. You have, Ive heard, 40 seconds to shut it off it there is trouble. They will readjust the software, but frankly it just points out why not to ride in third tier operated planes.

Art
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You’ll note that there hasn’t been a US flagged 737-8 MAX, that has had trouble. There are three ways to shut the system off. In the US and other first tier countries, this is one of the things that they test in the simulator (twice a year for pilots). Third tier countries don’t have that luxury. You have, Ive heard, 40 seconds to shut it off it there is trouble. They will readjust the software, but frankly it just points out why not to ride in third tier operated planes.

Art
That's a big call Art. There are a few so called first tier airlines around that I wouldn't touch with a 40 ft barge pole and that includes US as well as European airlines amongst others. Just because it's a US flagged airline doesn't make it any better than the rest.

The revelation that Boeing was granted FAA authorisation to certify parts of the aircraft as regulator is concerning and that FAA managers were pushing FAA staff to cut corners so that Boeing could have the 8MAX certified before Airbus A321NEO also is very concerning. The regulator should be acting as a regulator and ensuring safety, not as a cheer leader and cutting corners which may have contributed towards two fatal crashes. That is why Ethiopian Airways and the Ethiopian govt went to France for the technical side of the investigation, because they can't trust the FAA to be unbiased. This has left the US Govt and the FAA open to allegations of corruption and both them and Boeing to many and very expensive lawsuits.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Some of the US “barge-pole “ airlines fortunately can’t afford new 737 MAXs. There is a tour operator here I wouldn’t touch with a 1,000 foot pole!
 

2007yellow430

Active Member
That's a big call Art. There are a few so called first tier airlines around that I wouldn't touch with a 40 ft barge pole and that includes US as well as European airlines amongst others. Just because it's a US flagged airline doesn't make it any better than the rest.

The revelation that Boeing was granted FAA authorisation to certify parts of the aircraft as regulator is concerning and that FAA managers were pushing FAA staff to cut corners so that Boeing could have the 8MAX certified before Airbus A321NEO also is very concerning. The regulator should be acting as a regulator and ensuring safety, not as a cheer leader and cutting corners which may have contributed towards two fatal crashes. That is why Ethiopian Airways and the Ethiopian govt went to France for the technical side of the investigation, because they can't trust the FAA to be unbiased. This has left the US Govt and the FAA open to allegations of corruption and both them and Boeing to many and very expensive lawsuits.
Most planes have some items that require special attention. That’s why those who fly them get so much training. Airbus planes are generally not liked by pilots, because the computers have the final say as to what they will allow. Boeing has resisted that, but the MAX has substantial computer control. This “anti-stall programming” will fail on occasion, that’s what training is all about. Motors fail too, and pilots get training in how to deal with those failures. It would be interesting to get some commentary from a pilot checked out in the MAX to see their thoughts.

Art
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I vaguely recall reading that one US carrier mandated pilots manually flying their jets up to 10,000 feet before engaging auto controls. I think the reasons were better chance for recovery at high altitudes and that pilots should have more stick time.
 

2007yellow430

Active Member
I vaguely recall reading that one US carrier mandated pilots manually flying their jets up to 10,000 feet before engaging auto controls. I think the reasons were better chance for recovery at high altitudes and that pilots should have more stick time.
I’ve always heard it was the other way around. Mandatory use of the autopilot over 10k. Because it’s gets better mileage. Additionally, so I don’t think that they have to manually fly the plan at under 10k. They have to maintain Cat III currency, so pilots need to do an auto land (with autopilot) once a month. You know when it’s the computer flying because it feels like a carrier landing.

Art
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The manual time mandate was for take off to 10,000 feet I believe. Also, the article was probably MAX related but it was awhile ago so I am not sure. As for autopilot use to improve mileage, yep, airlines certainly would want that.
 
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