Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[hauritz]

Yes, one thing that has surprised me about Australia, despite the many changes of leadership over the last ten years, no major cuts to defence! Something I envy about them,apart from the weather, the better wages, etc.

I think part of the problem is that NZ hasn't really got a big shipbuilding industry. If it built its own ships and communities were reliant on that industry to provide work then you might see a lot more public support for spending money on new ships. As it is most of that money is disappearing overseas.

Perhaps if there were some agreement with Australia in which NZ could build blocks for both NZ and Australian ships. Once NZ is locked into that supply chain then the general public ... or at least the voters reliant on the shipbuilding industry ... will be less resistant to defence spending.

 

[MrConservative]

Just imagine what a green party coalition would do for Australia's defence policy, worked wonders for ours...

I saw a poll this morning in Turnbulls electorate of Wentworth that had the Greens on 15% and that their national primary vote was up to 13%. With the ALP on 36% on poll of polls data a Labour-Greens government would trounce home on 2 party preferred if the Greens can hold at mid teens.

If the Greens in OZ get more MP's (and likely they will be of the urban millennial SJW species) like we have seen to appear in NZ, they would be in a strong position with a sizable share of the ALP-GRN vote and have a strong argument for both Cabinet seats and policy concessions.

They will plunder Defence to spend on "Green Energy" and cultural marxism initiatives.

 

[Xthenaki]

I think part of the problem is that NZ hasn't really got a big shipbuilding industry. If it built its own ships and communities were reliant on that industry to provide work then you might see a lot more public support for spending money on new ships. As it is most of that money is disappearing overseas.

Perhaps if there were some agreement with Australia in which NZ could build blocks for both NZ and Australian ships. Once NZ is locked into that supply chain then the general public ... or at least the voters reliant on the shipbuilding industry ... will be less resistant to defence spending.

NZ needs to provide a basic shipbuilding industry first in the commercial sector capable of constructing tugs and ocean going fishing vessels. A dock be it floating or graving is another necessity to promote repair work. Could NZ be competitive is the big question and why hasnt private enterprise come forward.

 

[ASSAIL]

Yes, one thing that has surprised me about Australia, despite the many changes of leadership over the last ten years, no major cuts to defence! Something I envy about them,apart from the weather, the better wages, etc.

It’s only over the last 5 years.
The previous government talked big then proceeded to raid the defence piggy bank, delayed projects and led us to the lowest defence spend (%GDP) since 1938.

 

[Todjaeger]

Perhaps if there were some agreement with Australia in which NZ could build blocks for both NZ and Australian ships. Once NZ is locked into that supply chain then the general public ... or at least the voters reliant on the shipbuilding industry ... will be less resistant to defence spending.

If one looks back to the ANZAC-class frigates, one would find that NZ still did not go with increased defence spending. NZ purchased two out of a total of 10 ships, letting the options on an additional two frigates expire in 1997 IIRC. As part of the Kiwi participation, a Whangarei facility that was at one pointed owned by Tenix, then BAE Australia prior to being closed or sold off, built the superstructure modules for all the ANZAC-class frigates except for the first of class, HMAS Anzac. Given that as early as 1992 NZ was already thinking about not exercise the options on the two frigates and instead transitioning to a two frigate navy, while being on track to building 45% of the ANZAC-class ship modules while only purchasing 20% of the ships being built...

I would consider it unlikely that Australia would be willing to let NZ take block work away from Australian yards for any future RAN vessels. Particularly since the Hunter-class frigates are part of a national shipbuilding programme in Australia.

 

[Gibbo]

NZ needs to provide a basic shipbuilding industry first in the commercial sector capable of constructing tugs and ocean going fishing vessels. A dock be it floating or graving is another necessity to promote repair work. Could NZ be competitive is the big question and why hasnt private enterprise come forward.

I'd love to see both building & maintenance work flourish in NZ & I think a floating or graving dock would be an excellent idea but it'll only happen with significant Govt support - although I'm not against the latter!. The reason private enterprise haven't moved is the sheer cost of setup without any Govt $$$ makes the commercial risk far too high.

Have to remember that just because it is available doesn't mean local vessels will use it. It would be hard to compete for foreign vessels due to our 'out of the way' location & we'd struggle to get any real economies of scale so local operators, particularly those of larger vessels, could potentially still find overseas docking cheaper.

Same goes for ship-building - we would always struggle to be competitive.

 

[Gibbo]

Yes, one thing that has surprised me about Australia, despite the many changes of leadership over the last ten years, no major cuts to defence! Something I envy about them,apart from the weather, the better wages, etc.

Yes very different outlook over the ditch. But there's recent evidence of a possible trend here in NZ that surprises me too... pleasantly! NZ has sent Frigates away for hugely expense refits without too much hoo-ha! And recently NZ committed to what is probably the single biggest ever defence purchase (P8A) and here we are few months later and there is bugger all fuss or debate in the MSM... that's quite amazing! Yes there's plenty of anti-chatter online etc but it's not a daily topic of discussion like it would have been a couple of decades ago. Mind you it often depends on how politicised the issue is, the opposition could go to town if it wanted & for now the greens are largely sidelined in the defence debate thank goodness.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Yes very different outlook over the ditch. But there's recent evidence of a possible trend here in NZ that surprises me too... pleasantly! NZ has sent Frigates away for hugely expense refits without too much hoo-ha! And recently NZ committed to what is probably the single biggest ever defence purchase (P8A) and here we are few months later and there is bugger all fuss or debate in the MSM... that's quite amazing! Yes there's plenty of anti-chatter online etc but it's not a daily topic of discussion like it would have been a couple of decades ago. Mind you it often depends on how politicised the issue is, the opposition could go to town if it wanted & for now the greens are largely sidelined in the defence debate thank goodness.

Yes, the P8 though i thought was no realistic alternative capability wise, that works in as well with our allies. But numbers wise im disappointed, like for like means 6 P3 for 6 P8 in my book. We have what, 18 odd Billion left dont we in the capability spend up?

Edda fonn, sure she meets most of our requirements and im sure our engineers here will do a fine job fitting her out back here, but we shouldnt have to keep thinking outside the box,when we have the money to do otherwise.

Whats next, a customised airlifter again for the strategic role? And nothing on Southern Ocean patrol vessel either.

To me so far it seems like meeting the minimum requirements of capability, at best. Not upgrading the frigates and opting out of the P8 would have been lunacy.

 

[Gibbo]

Yes, the P8 though i thought was no realistic alternative capability wise, that works in as well with our allies. But numbers wise im disappointed, like for like means 6 P3 for 6 P8 in my book. We have what, 18 odd Billion left dont we in the capability spend up?

Edda fonn, sure she meets most of our requirements and im sure our engineers here will do a fine job fitting her out back here, but we shouldnt have to keep thinking outside the box,when we have the money to do otherwise.

Whats next, a customised airlifter again for the strategic role? And nothing on Southern Ocean patrol vessel either.

To me so far it seems like meeting the minimum requirements of capability, at best. Not upgrading the frigates and opting out of the P8 would have been lunacy.

Yes totally with you on all the above, we could spend more $$$ and shouldn't cut corners nor platform numbers. Media simply see no further than the $$$ cost and so Joe public would give no thought to, nor comprehend, what the best platform for the task... so it is at least encouraging to see less lop-sided & drawn-out debate.

 

[MrConservative]

The reason private enterprise haven't moved is the sheer cost of setup without any Govt $$$ makes the commercial risk far too high.

It would be hard to compete for foreign vessels due to our 'out of the way' location & we'd struggle to get any real economies of scale so local operators, particularly those of larger vessels, could potentially still find overseas docking cheaper.

It is the RMA related costs and the years in the EC that concerns the investors and disinterest from the Port Authorities who don't care as it is not their business which is why it needs a Shane Jones type to bulldoze it through.

The big Ferry operators have to send their vessels abroad for surveys and refits due to current limited facilities and the timing issues that result from that cost them money. With the fishing companies like Sealords, Sanfords and Aotearoa getting bigger vessels is why there has been a push for the Shakespeare Bay facility.

 

[alexsa]

If one looks back to the ANZAC-class frigates, one would find that NZ still did not go with increased defence spending. NZ purchased two out of a total of 10 ships, letting the options on an additional two frigates expire in 1997 IIRC. As part of the Kiwi participation, a Whangarei facility that was at one pointed owned by Tenix, then BAE Australia prior to being closed or sold off, built the superstructure modules for all the ANZAC-class frigates except for the first of class, HMAS Anzac. Given that as early as 1992 NZ was already thinking about not exercise the options on the two frigates and instead transitioning to a two frigate navy, while being on track to building 45% of the ANZAC-class ship modules while only purchasing 20% of the ships being built...

I would consider it unlikely that Australia would be willing to let NZ take block work away from Australian yards for any future RAN vessels. Particularly since the Hunter-class frigates are part of a national shipbuilding programme in Australia.

Agree .... and given the nature of the new ship yard in Osborne (in which all hull modules would be built) then the input from NZ would be subsystems not the modules themselves. Still useful industry but less volumous than the ANZAC module build.

 

[40 deg south]

http://www.ctcmarine.com/customers/deepocean/files/5016b19e30cd8.pdf

Some more detailed info on the Navy's new acquisition.

 

[ASSAIL]

http://www.ctcmarine.com/customers/deepocean/files/5016b19e30cd8.pdf

Some more detailed info on the Navy's new acquisition.

Nice to see the bridge set further aft than the average supply vessel. This will make the watchkeepers a little happier in the higher latitudes

 

[kiwipatriot69]

I saw a poll this morning in Turnbulls electorate of Wentworth that had the Greens on 15% and that their national primary vote was up to 13%. With the ALP on 36% on poll of polls data a Labour-Greens government would trounce home on 2 party preferred if the Greens can hold at mid teens.

If the Greens in OZ get more MP's (and likely they will be of the urban millennial SJW species) like we have seen to appear in NZ, they would be in a strong position with a sizable share of the ALP-GRN vote and have a strong argument for both Cabinet seats and policy concessions.

They will plunder Defence to spend on "Green Energy" and cultural marxism initiatives.

Yes, at 15% greens could do a lot of damage to defence, in a coalition, even more so to the fossil fuel industry there than our labour party did in taranaki months ago. Fortunatly Jacinda Adern seems to be letting defence and Ron Mark have some leeway with the recent purchases.

I hope she doesn't turn out to be like her predeccesor Helen Clark was when the other big ticket defence items are finally decided on. The worry I have is just that, the longer in office she is all those other projects like free tertiary education housing ect will quickly drain the coffers, and the defence money will be earmarked to cover them!

 

[Rob c]

Yes, the P8 though i thought was no realistic alternative capability wise, that works in as well with our allies. But numbers wise im disappointed, like for like means 6 P3 for 6 P8 in my book. We have what, 18 odd Billion left dont we in the capability spend up?

I think you need to take into account the modern flight simulators and training aids that have been purchased. In the past at least one P 3 would have been tied up with both air and ground training ( remember P 3s just sitting on the ground with external power while crews trained ) which now will be done in a simulator. my personal view is that we should need to go with 5 P 8s to replace the 6 P 3s as was the case with Norway. However from a defence point of view the more the better.

 

[KiwiRob]

Nice to see the bridge set further aft than the average supply vessel. This will make the watchkeepers a little happier in the higher latitudes

It’s not a supply vessel and there’s a helideck up front, so the bridge it where the bridge has to be.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

I think you need to take into account the modern flight simulators and training aids that have been purchased. In the past at least one P 3 would have been tied up with both air and ground training ( remember P 3s just sitting on the ground with external power while crews trained ) which now will be done in a simulator. my personal view is that we should need to go with 5 P 8s to replace the 6 P 3s as was the case with Norway. However from a defence point of view the more the better.

Wasn't aware of that, thanks. Point taken.

 

[ASSAIL]

It’s not a supply vessel and there’s a helideck up front, so the bridge it where the bridge has to be.

Thanks for that insight, I know what it is, I have eyes and can read, I also am well versed in offshore oil and gas support.
I was simply stating a fact that the bridge placement in this vessels enables less movement for the watchkeepers in heavy seas.
Anyone with seagoing experience will appreciate that, non seamen may not.

 

[RegR]

I think you need to take into account the modern flight simulators and training aids that have been purchased. In the past at least one P 3 would have been tied up with both air and ground training ( remember P 3s just sitting on the ground with external power while crews trained ) which now will be done in a simulator. my personal view is that we should need to go with 5 P 8s to replace the 6 P 3s as was the case with Norway. However from a defence point of view the more the better.

Another point is the tech involved today in both the systems and the actual platform itself in terms of plug and play/test, modularity and overall reliability in general. We need 6 P3s just to somewhat guarantee we have at least 4 available for tasking due to the amount of faults in equipment, aircraft or equipment and aircraft which has only worsened as father time has done it's thing and if the Hercs are anything to go by could very well be even worse now availability wise as if anything there are alot more faults to find/remedy in the similar vintage orions compared to hercules as far as "tech" goes. Maintenance of systems should be alot simpler, quicker and user friendly today compared to yesteryear as technology has leapfrogged from P3 to P8 and procedures, processes, preventative measures and fault finding have adjusted accordingly.

We originally only had 5 P3s to begin with so along with modern simulators we are much in the same boat so to speak with 4 frames in a like for like capability sense. The issue I see is more in the future when age again becomes an achilles as nothing lasts/performs forever and like our current fleet(s) niggles start creeping in. Hopefully we then do the same and purchase an additional frame from ???? at a later date to bolster the fleet but maybe wishfull thinking due to the logistics involved and the effort and resources will just be put into the complimentary tier to compensate. Not a bad proposition in the scheme of things, dependant on the level of complimentary capability that is finally aqquired of course.

 

[RegR]

http://navy.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/public-docs/rnzn-plan-2017-2025.pdf

Interesting read also, especially future intent.