Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

Aimed at no-one in particular. Please bear in mind, when posting about the SEA 5000 - NuFrigates, that we are unaware of the RFT criteria, or what the three respondents have replied with. We can only base our arguments upon what is publicly available, and that is not enough good quality data to make a reasonable assumption from. We just don't have the information.

 

[oldsig127]

Quoting myself you can read i have nothing against the F-5000 on the contrary as i wrote it is the most solid option.

It is just my perception that buying a ship from a company that looses 300-400 mln per year is highly risky and the same goes for an unproven design.


P.S. Aspi report is out on the race.

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/ad-aspi/2018-05/SI 131 Choosing Australia's next frigate.pdf?1vB8T7DDSTHcqxcbs.uvz4t9IoYtCEzE

Mmmm. Nothing new in there aside from the result of a computer game they themselves consider at best indicative. I doubt if ASPI actually know more than the best informed members of this board, and I'm not sure they have their facts correct anyway on some of the contenders - for example that the Navantia bid has a single hangar that could be changed, while Navantia themselves have released a video showing a double hangar.

Good thing that the announcement is getting nigh. Arguing the numbers of fairies that can dance on the head of a pin is daft enough, especially when we don't know the fairies/square pinhead ratio the Government requires except that according to the shills only their product allows it

oldsg

 

[alexsa]

Mmmm. Nothing new in there aside from the result of a computer game they themselves consider at best indicative. I doubt if ASPI actually know more than the best informed members of this board, and I'm not sure they have their facts correct anyway on some of the contenders - for example that the Navantia bid has a single hangar that could be changed, while Navantia themselves have released a video showing a double hangar.

Good thing that the announcement is getting nigh. Arguing the numbers of fairies that can dance on the head of a pin is daft enough, especially when we don't know the fairies/square pinhead ratio the Government requires except that according to the shills only their product allows it

oldsg

Yes, I love the fact they continue to report a single hanger despite the fact the models and renderings from as far back as 2015 have all shown a twin hanger configuration and Navantia have been stressing that it is a twin hanger design.

I guess the lack of observation is why ASPI consider the F310 to be an F100 vessel (page 4). There is certainly some DNA there but the vessel is shorter, lighter, narrow and shallower with a different propulsion arrangement and a lot less cells ...... apart from that completely the same!!

I suspect BAE would be less then impressed with the T26 being described as having just 34 cells in the Mk41 when the models have shown 32.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Turnbull's frigate call about more than capability

Some interesting commentary regarding the frigate selection. Covering the contenders, not much new information here. More about what is known and what is not.

SEA 5000 Aegis integration an 'orthodox activity': Lockheed Martin Australia - Defence Connect

Lock mart defending Aegis from a risk point of view. Again not much new information. I don't think Aegis and 9LV is a risky option at all, and all seem confident the CEA stuff can be integrated. I wonder if people are just afraid of combat management systems after the Collins subs issues.

I actually think it was one of the better decisions, rolling it back on to the DDG's in term of 9lv afterwards.

 

[RDB]

Turnbull's frigate call about more than capability

Some interesting commentary regarding the frigate selection. Covering the contenders, not much new information here. More about what is known and what is not.

SEA 5000 Aegis integration an 'orthodox activity': Lockheed Martin Australia - Defence Connect

Lock mart defending Aegis from a risk point of view. Again not much new information. I don't think Aegis and 9LV is a risky option at all, and all seem confident the CEA stuff can be integrated. I wonder if people are just afraid of combat management systems after the Collins subs issues.

I actually think it was one of the better decisions, rolling it back on to the DDG's in term of 9lv afterwards.

My understanding of the "Australian tactical interface" is different; that it's a software interface between Aegis and weapon/sensors hence avoiding the need to directly integrate via modifying the Aegis code. While there may be reuse of some code used on the CEA - 9LV combination, it would need to be modified to interface with Aegis.

 

[Stampede]

If Navantia viability was a problem it would have been identified earlier. Navantia has competed and won on a number of programs so it doesn't appear to be an issue for the AusGov either on a local build or overseas build.

They seem focused on the gadget itself.

But what does my head in, is then the OPV don't have a hangar (even a telescopic type), even though having that type of ship capable of embarking a proper helicopter to assist in a ASW screen would seem a very obvious and very cheap insurance and boost in capability. A future frigate with two, and a OPV with one would provide 3 helicopters which then gives a significant boost in capability over one or two. The sheer number of OPV's would mean they would likely be available for some sort of tasking if required. Having a hangar would also assist in many roles outside of ASW, useful as a OPV.

While the OPV are limited themselves, being able to operate a MH-60R in-conjunction with a future frigate or DDG would be a huge enabler. Even just from a training perspective. I would imagine future drones large enough to mount MH-60R type systems and weapons would also be useful.

I also love how our ASW ships will also feature aegis and we openly talk about mounting SM-6 and SM-3 on them. Like that isn't significant capability in its own right. There aren't many air focused destroyers and cruisers that mount SM-6 or SM-3 or that level of capability. Combining with Land/sea strike. SM-3 I think is some way off, throwing it in is a bit disingenuous.

As for the ASPI article:
The F-5000 is the cheapest? May have electric drive?
Given the lack of public information, it is pretty hard to make these statements and back up this analysis. On reflection, I think ASPI have opened a can of worms on some of their statements without providing actual evidence or sources. IMO they probably should have waited until after the announcement to clear themselves.

We won't have to wait long.. This Wed/Thurs is supposed to be the time of the announcement.

Edit: clarifying my comments re: ASPI.

Agree re the hangar on the OPV however I feel the horse has bolted on that one.
On a positive, the winning Lurssen PV80 design looks the most capable of the three contenders re its helicopter deck size and helicopter weight carrying capacity.
Maybe this in itself is some future proofing for the ship to do more than just the constabulary stuff. A future armed Lily-pad to accompany a destroyer in certain scenarios. Not saying it's ideal or a corvette but at 80m with a decent sized beam of 13m ,I would speculate this ship has some weight carrying capacity that may not be fully utilised when it enters service.
Just a thought and fingers crossed.

Regards S

 

[Stampede]

What I think want change the decision of SEA 5000, but we may as well have a bit of fun with it before the announcement and put our cards on the table.
Without giving any reasons, I will go with Navantias F 5000.

Who will you go with?





Regards S

 

[old faithful]

F5000 for mine.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Agree re the hangar on the OPV however I feel the horse has bolted on that one.
On a positive, the winning Lurssen PV80 design looks the most capable of the three contenders re its helicopter deck size and helicopter weight carrying capacity.
Maybe this in itself is some future proofing for the ship to do more than just the constabulary stuff. A future armed Lily-pad to accompany a destroyer in certain scenarios. Not saying it's ideal or a corvette but at 80m with a decent sized beam of 13m ,I would speculate this ship has some weight carrying capacity that may not be fully utilised when it enters service.
Just a thought and fingers crossed.

Regards S

I do believe that the Lurssen is a serviceable ship, it is quite possible a hangar or type facilities could be modified later. After all we have a LPD with a tent system. It has a very large aviation area. We are currently short on MH-60R's as it is, and any future ASW capability is likely not to be MH-60R's anyway (something drone based would be ideal) or just air based.

ASW capability will be more than just electric drive and a hull mounted sonar. The future frigates are likely to have a broader focus than just ASW performance.

The Japanese 30DX and FF development has been interesting to watch, as they are basically clean sheet explorations of the ASW problem.

 

[Richo99]

What I think want change the decision of SEA 5000, but we may as well have a bit of fun with it before the announcement and put our cards on the table.
Without giving any reasons, I will go with Navantias F 5000.

Who will you go with?

Regards S

Has to be F5000...

 

[76mmGuns]

Type 26 to win.

 

[hauritz]

My picks so far

Soryu for SEA1000
Fassmer OPV80 for SEA1180

and for the trifecta
F-5000 for SEA5000

 

[thatsamguy]

1 for 2 so far:
SEA1000 - Naval Group Shortfin
SEA1180 - Damen
....
SEA5000 - F-5000

 

[76mmGuns]

This is very amusing. Made me think this was sounding like the Melbourne Cup. Lol

 

[wowu5]

Why are we making last minute bet here right now?
I am not aware of any immediate update to the SEA5000 selection, is there any news I haven't heard of about the announcement from RAN in the next few days/weeks?

 

[Meriv90]

Today was the dividend day for most stocks in Italy, Fincantieri included, on Friday it lost 5% (thanks to political situation, we are without government) .

Today it went up of 5% regardless of the 1% dividend, people say it is bouncing but it is strange for the same amount and while the whole market is loosing 1,5%.

Crossing fingers for some nice insider trading

Now out of dreaming, i would put the chances as F-5000 50% FREMM 30% Type 20%, If you press for ASW 35% for both Type and FREMM.

 

[Todjaeger]

Why are we making last minute bet here right now?
I am not aware of any immediate update to the SEA5000 selection, is there any news I haven't heard of about the announcement from RAN in the next few days/weeks?

Per gov't, the SEA 5000 decision is to be made during the 2nd Q, 2018, which means by the end of June, so in the next six weeks. Apparently from what some have read, the decision could be announced as soon as this Wednesday or Thursday.

One thing which struck me as curious is that after SEA 1000 announcement that the DCNS's (now Naval Group) Short-fin Barracuda was the preferred option for the Collins-class replacement and contracts signed in September for Design Phase 2, nothing more has been heard about the status of that programme.

 

[ASSAIL]

Per gov't, the SEA 5000 decision is to be made during the 2nd Q, 2018, which means by the end of June, so in the next six weeks. Apparently from what some have read, the decision could be announced as soon as this Wednesday or Thursday.

One thing which struck me as curious is that after SEA 1000 announcement that the DCNS's (now Naval Group) Short-fin Barracuda was the preferred option for the Collins-class replacement and contracts signed in September for Design Phase 2, nothing more has been heard about the status of that programme.

Re SEA1000 There is an update of sorts in the May issue of the magazine "Asia Pacific Defence Reporter"

 

[matt00773]

Here's a link to the full publication of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute document which was referenced by several recent articles on the SEA 5000 programme - "The next big grey thing – choosing Australia’s future frigate":

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws... frigate.pdf?rGthjZr5Yeq6O2RHnoxL5YQjx1FHPGZF

From my perspective its rather disappointing, with many basic factual errors and omissions (e.g. Aus Type 26 has 32 VLS, not 24). It's stated within the document that they never had access to any tender documentation or responses, so its difficult to rate its credibility.

 

[Milne Bay]

Today was the dividend day for most stocks in Italy, Fincantieri included, on Friday it lost 5% (thanks to political situation, we are without government) .

Today it went up of 5% regardless of the 1% dividend, people say it is bouncing but it is strange for the same amount and while the whole market is loosing 1,5%.

Crossing fingers for some nice insider trading

Now out of dreaming, i would put the chances as F-5000 50% FREMM 30% Type 20%, If you press for ASW 35% for both Type and FREMM.

Interesting.
Stocks that go ex-dividend, traditionally go down.
Someone knows something .
Whether it is Australia's SEA 5000 decision or something else is moot for the moment.
Certainly I think Fincantieri might be firming in the betting though
MB