War Against ISIS

gazzzwp

Member
The Russians by now are well aware that that that the U.S. is fully capable of conducting such a strike. In fact the U.S. has conducted similar strikes before.

Irrespective of whether it was Israel or somewhere else; they would have gone out of their way to ensure there were no Russians around. There real question is whether the strike was a PR exercise or did it really cause significant military damage? How would the country that conducted the strike react next if there was another chemical attack?
Trump vows to make a firm response very soon. The Truman CGS is about to head for the area. I wonder if this is a routine exercise or is it an indication that the USN does not have enough assets already in the region?

Harry S. Truman Carrier Strike Group to Deploy from Norfolk
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Haven’t been keeping up with latest news but based on Trump’s tweets, he has had enough of this BS. The recent chemical attack will likely require a big wack on Assad (well deserved IMO) but after that, I can’t fault Trump for leaving this loser sinkhole. NATO or ME allies aren’t exactly running up to help, not that I would want ME allies watching my six.
 
Haven’t been keeping up with latest news but based on Trump’s tweets, he has had enough of this BS. The recent chemical attack will likely require a big wack on Assad (well deserved IMO) but after that, I can’t fault Trump for leaving this loser sinkhole. NATO or ME allies aren’t exactly running up to help, not that I would want ME allies watching my six.
I would really love to have a full investigation into this. This IMO is fabricated from the rebels.

Seriously, Assad and Russia are winning right now more than ever. The Syrian conflict is looking like it's almost over. ISIS is almost driven out of Syria. Why on earth would they carry out a small chemical weapons attack? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose from that. As a matter of fact, anti Assad forces gain the most from this...
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Your argument makes sense but some of the players here are not playing with a full deck. Assad may be too stupid to appreciate when he is ahead. That being said, I still think it is a stretch that rebels faked a chemical attack
 

2007yellow430

Active Member
I’d like to see an investigation before any action is taken. The risk of war between the parties is too high. Let’s see if this was done by Aaaad or not.

Art
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Haven’t been keeping up with latest news but based on Trump’s tweets, he has had enough of this BS. The recent chemical attack will likely require a big wack on Assad (well deserved IMO)
If Trump really 'has had enough of this BS' he should come up with a long term, realistic strategy on how to deal with Syria and ask himself what exactly does the U.S. hope to achieve in Syria. If Trump was really fed up with the region he should pull out not just from Syria but from all the other places in the region the U.S. has a military presence.

With regards to a military strike; a few air and missile strikes will not keep Assad up at night. Not when he knows the Russians are standing by him and the U.S. has no appetite for regime change in another Arab country.

NATO or ME allies aren’t exactly running up to help, not that I would want ME allies watching my six.
Why should NATO jump in and do as the U.S. is doing? As for Middle East allies; the U.S. shares a large part of the blame. Saudi and others are more concerned with Yemen rather than with Syria and who encouraged or condone them going into Yemen in the first place? Rather than try to impose some kind of long term peace/confidence building settlement between the Gulf Arabs and Iran; that would benefit everyone; who took sides in the Suuni/Shia Cold War currently being waged?
 
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the concerned

Active Member
I would really love to have a full investigation into this. This IMO is fabricated from the rebels.

Seriously, Assad and Russia are winning right now more than ever. The Syrian conflict is looking like it's almost over. ISIS is almost driven out of Syria. Why on earth would they carry out a small chemical weapons attack? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose from that. As a matter of fact, anti Assad forces gain the most from this...
That point is all the more reason to find out what happened. If Assad did use chemical weapons then as you have said it was completely unnecessary as they where winning and I hope the international community make his regime pay.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
If Assad did use chemical weapons then as you have said it was completely unnecessary as they where winning
A possibility is that chemicals were used to strike fear. To persuade the remaining rebels to surrender.

I hope the international community make his regime pay.
Indeed. Whoever used the chemicals should be held accountable. However, the U.S. should not be selective when applying justice. The countries responsible for civilian deaths in Yemen should also be held accountable; never mind that they're U.S. allies. And who's accountable for unarmed Palestinians being shot and killed whilst protesting on their land?
 

gazzzwp

Member

STURM

Well-Known Member
It's like the Cold War all over again. Both countries taking steps to protect their client states/allies. If I recall correctly the Soviet Union placed VDV units on alert and would have deployed them to Egypt if Israel destroyed the trapped Egyptian 3rd Army in 1973. U.S. and Soviet ships in the Mediterranean were also placed on full alert. I would imagine that there's quire a bit of back channel communications going on now between the U.S. and Russia.

A NATO force on the ground will never happen. Neither NATO nor the EU have the political will to get involved. A couple of strikes will not achieve much. What will be needed to seriously downgrade Assad's military would be a sustained campaign lasting a couple of weeks or more but of course that will never happen. The Russians have made it clear they will up the ante if they have to.
 

gazzzwp

Member
It's like the Cold War all over again. Both countries taking steps to protect their client states/allies. If I recall correctly the Soviet Union placed VDV units on alert and would have deployed them to Egypt if Israel destroyed the trapped Egyptian 3rd Army in 1973. U.S. and Soviet ships in the Mediterranean were also placed on full alert. I would imagine that there's quire a bit of back channel communications going on now between the U.S. and Russia.

A NATO force on the ground will never happen. Neither NATO nor the EU have the political will to get involved. A couple of strikes will not achieve much. What will be needed to seriously downgrade Assad's military would be a sustained campaign lasting a couple of weeks or more but of course that will never happen. The Russians have made it clear they will up the ante if they have to.
Yes I would just add that this comes at a time when Russia sees itself (at least from it's PR pretence, not necessarily genuinely so) to be a victim of Russophobia after the 29 nations expelled diplomats, and the recent US sanctions that have damaged stocks in Russian companies.

It's probably not the best time to be testing Russian resolve, but on the other hand Trump and his allies have the moral ground. I think the truth of the situation is that the Syrian army is just doing what it wants and Assad is ignorant in terms of decision being made. That's the only logical answer to the recent gas attack.
 

the concerned

Active Member
I do agree with strikes but ground forces are not needed. The use of coalition ground forces was for anti Isis missions that is just about completed. The Syrian government will win this war then we can deal with that afterwards by isolating them but we do not have the right to change the course of the conflict.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
and his allies have the moral ground.
Do these allies really have the moral ground here? Especially his Gulf Arab allies who've been waging war on Yemen and who have been supporting various actors in the Syrian conflict for their own interests. I'm totally against the death of civilians [whether Assad supporters or otherwise] but some of the countries crying foul now also have the blood of civilians on their hands and why are there only protests when civilians in rebel held areas are killed? Do we see the same protests when civilians in areas held by Assad are killed? If chemicals were used on civilians in Assad held areas would these same countries be calling for military action or would they first call for an independent investigation? Perhaps some would even claim that Assad and Russia used chemicals on 'friendly' civilians to gain sympathy.

I think the truth of the situation is that the Syrian army is just doing what it wants and Assad is ignorant in terms of decision being made. That's the only logical answer to the recent gas attack.
After so many years of war it would be safe to assume that Assad has a firm grip on his army. I'm not into conspiracy theories but there's also the possibility that a 3rd party [I don't mean an outside country] could have been involved. Do we even know if the chemicals were released from the air or by shells?

The Syrian government will win this war then we can deal with that afterwards by isolating them but we do not have the right to change the course of the conflict.
Isolating them for what purpose and gain? Who benefits? The fact remains that outsiders have long been trying to 'change the course of the conflict' - not for humanitarian concerns but for other reasons.

I fail to see what a few strikes are intended to achieve and if another chemical attack is reported after these strikes; what then? More strikes? The truth - unfortunately - is that there's no easy answer or solution as to how to prevent further chemical attacks.

Trump has promised Assad will 'pay a price' – but it may make little difference

''It remains mysterious why Assad should provoke the US and Europeans just at his moment of victory in Damascus and when the rebels are on the point of surrender or have already done so. Remarkably, the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, says that Russian experts were able to enter the hospital in Douma where the chemical attack occurred – something which suggests the city has fallen – and interview eyewitnesses. He said: “Our military specialists have visited this place ... and they did not find any trace of chlorine or any other chemical substance used against civilians.” But the US state Department has said that Syrian forces are denying entry to international inspectors. Just because a poison gas attack at this stage would be an extremely stupid thing for the Syrian government to do, however, does not mean that they did not do it. As with many other atrocities in the Syrian war, there is always a residue of doubt about what really happened because of the lack of independent non-partisan reporting and investigation.''

''Trump is finding that there are limits to US power in Syria, which primarily depends on launching air strikes while the Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) act as a mopping up force on the ground. But after the fall of their enclave at Afrin, the Kurds are mobilising to hold back the Turkish army and its Arab auxiliaries, many of them jihadis. In the long term, the Kurds are looking for a deal with Assad and have no intention of fighting him. In general, Trump’s instinct to get out of Syria is a sound one, and the interventionist ambitions of the Washington foreign policy establishment depend heavily on wishful thinking.''

Only Assad’s victory will end Syria’s civil war. The west can do nothing | Simon Jenkins

''The only option now open to the west in Syria is whether or not to make it worse. No amount of grandstanding, feelgood rhetoric or intermittent bombing is going to impede the Assad regime’s path to victory in its civil war. It must now be obvious that every ounce of aid given by the west to the Syrian opposition since 2011 has just prolonged that country’s agony. Seven years ago, western intelligence and the western media declared that Bashar al-Assad was about to fall. That was wrong. Since then, half-hearted intervention has been worse than no intervention at all. Outside meddling in the Middle East’s civil wars has never been productive, except of death and destruction.''

''
Inhumanity lies in the killing of any civilians in war. There is something peculiarly abhorrent in the targeting of civilian areas of suburban Damascus. But for all its denials the west does it too. Last summer, the monitor Airwars estimated that more than 8,000 civilians died in the fall of Mosul, mostly from inevitably indiscriminate Iraqi, American and British missiles. Even the Pentagon accepts that it has killed hundreds of civilians in Iraq and Syria. As the British commander Maj Gen Rupert Jones says, civilian deaths are “the price you pay” for fighting in cities. Assad would agree.The laws of war are enveloped in hypocrisy, largely because they are written by the winners. The US has still not signed the convention against delayed-action cluster bombs, one of the most immoral weapons ever devised. They went out of production only last year. Such weapons are still being used by the west’s Saudi allies in Yemen. This whole argument is not over morality, merely degrees of obscenity.''
 
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gazzzwp

Member
Do these allies really have the moral ground here? Especially his Gulf Arab allies who've been waging war on Yemen and who have been supporting various actors in the Syrian conflict for their own interests. I'm totally against the death of civilians [whether Assad supporters or otherwise] but some of the countries crying foul now also have the blood of civilians on their hands and why are there only protests when civilians in rebel held areas are killed? Do we see the same protests when civilians in areas held by Assad are killed? If chemicals were used on civilians in Assad held areas would these same countries be calling for military action or would they first call for an independent investigation? Perhaps some would even claim that Assad and Russia used chemicals on 'friendly' civilians to gain sympathy.''
The big question is about chemical attacks is will they happen again? Taking back the Damascus suburbs does not mean that the war is over. Those rebels have moved further north to fight another day. The war is not over and by reason, neither are chemical attacks. These are crimes against humanity and I for one do not want to be part of a western nation that lets this happen.

The Russian military has been quick to move in to Duoma. They will most likely sanitise the area and arrange the scene in their favour.

This is what the west is up against.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Taking back the Damascus suburbs does not mean that the war is over.
No but it will be a further blow for the rebels and another victory for Assad.

These are crimes against humanity and I for one do not want to be part of a western nation that lets this happen.
Well I'm not part of any Western nation but I certainly wouldn't want anyone to be hit by another chemical attack. The problem here is that missile or air strikes will not necessarily mean that such attacks will not reoccur. An attack will make the U.S. look good but not only will it not prevent another attack; it will not punish those who are responsible for the attack. Ironically, IS and groups like it, will welcome a strike on Assad. If things get worst and the U.S. and Russia engage in hostilities over Syria; IS and groups like it will be overjoyed.

Sure chemical attacks are a crime but I wish the U.S. and other countries would not be so selective and will also look at other crimes conducted by other countries; irrespective of whether these countries are allies or are friendly countries. And as I mentioned previously; what would the reaction be if a chemical attack was made on civilians in an Assad held area?

This is what the west is up against.
This is what many, including the people of Syria [irrespective of who they back] are up against; not just the West.

Like Russia; the U.S. will do what it has to do for its own national interests; regardless of whether the ordinary people of Syria benefit or not. It would be great if U.S. military action would prevent another chemical attack. Unfortunately it won't and those responsible won't be held accountable.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is what the west is up against.
I think that the US has lost the right to speak for the West as a whole, because of it's now insular approach. It's new trade policies will hurt more in the west than anything Russia, Iran or Assad can do. How to win friends an alienate allies.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I think that the US has lost the right to speak for the West as a whole, because of it's now insular approach. It's new trade policies will hurt more in the west than anything Russia, Iran or Assad can do. How to win friends an alienate allies.
I do not wish to get into politics, but the US leadership will change and with it, the direction of US policies. Such a change might happen before the next presidential election, depending on how things go.
 
Soo Germany, Italy and Canada have all came forward and said they will not join the coalition in striking Syria

Germany won't join any military strike against Syrian regime: Merkel

Italy won't take part in Syria military action - PM - English

Justin Trudeau says Canada won’t be part of military action in Syria

Also there's tons of talk here inside the US of how pointless it is to try and get more involved in Syria. The chemical attack however puts everyone in a weird spot....one hand you can't just let dictators do that, on the other, if you respond there is a chance you get dragged right back into the conflict when the US objective is to leave Syria.

Personally I think there's bigger powers in the works. For some reason, as much as the democrats and republicans hate each other here, they agree and have no issue on potentially get heavily involved in Syria. Anyone know why? Does it spell doom for the west to let Putin and his gang influence the middle east starting in Syria?
 
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