The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Vulcan]

As I recall there had been RAN people attached to the Type 26 and Ceafar had been flagged from the beginning.

Because of Australia's interest in the Type 26 this has been included as a possibility for a long time.
BAE Systems signs Future Frigate design contract with Australian Government | BAE Systems | International
BAE Systems told to refine Type 26 design for new Australian frigates | Naval Today

Conversations and specifications had been part of the type 26 project from sometime in 2013.
Defence Cooperation with Australia and the Type 26 Global Combat Ship - Think Defence

CEA's radars come in different sizes and costs depending on what you want. For the Type 31, something like what the Anzacs current have would be idea.

Indeed, this has been an effort for the Aus T-26 bid, but from a UK perspective and being so famously out-of-money, where would the funding be coming from (relatively quickly) to integrate it with a pretty stable design?

T31e seems the better bet, presumably to make it more attractive in the export arena.

 

[ngatimozart]

An interesting discussion by ex service senior personnel about the upcoming SDSR.

Ex-military chiefs are seething about potential cuts to Plymouth's Royal Navy - Plymouth Herald

 

[t68]

It seems that Turkey have put an EOI in to the UKG for HMS Ocean if Brazil don't want her. I find it a bit strange when they are building a variant of the Spanish JC1, I was under the impression that they were building two has one been cancelled or one only ever ordered hence the interest in Ocean?


https://navaltoday.com/2017/11/15/t...ial-buyer-of-uk-helicopter-carrier-hms-ocean/

 

[swerve]

AFAIK the Turks only ordered one. I don't remember hearing that they planned two.

 

[kato]

HMS Ocean might possibly be considered as a replacement for TCG Iskenderun, an 8000-ton roro ferry used as a troop transport. She's been used in HADR missions and served in multiple evacuations e.g. in Albania, Lebanon and Libya, and other than that mostly seems to serve for training maritime transport procedures with army units.

While she's notionally only 26 years old she did spend ten years of that in extensive civilian commercial service. She has two civilian sisters (all based on a Polish design built in Turkey), one of which was sold to a Turkish maritime college a few years ago and has since - after an indepth overhaul - been used as a cadet ship; the other one is moored somewhere near Istanbul and usually considered out of service.

HMS Ocean could be interesting to relatively cheaply replace her functionally in combination with serving as a training system for larger-scale helo operations in preparation for TCG Anadolu which won't commission until 2021...

 

[ngatimozart]

The tanker RFA Tidespring is due to be commissioned at Portsmouth on 27/11/2017. The CV HMS Elizabeth is due to commissioned at Portsmouth on 7/12/2017 by HM Queen Elizabeth II. The GI's will have both ships companies out for square bashing practice. That is one thing about service life I don't miss - being volunteered for parades. Don't mind watching them though.

 

[pussertas]

HMS Diamond Aborts Gulf Mission After Breaking Down

(Source: The Times; published Nov 23, 2017)

The Royal Navy Type 45 destroyer HMS Diamond, seen here leaving Portsmouth, has had to abort a nine-month deployment and sail home after suffering a severe engine breakdown which cannot be fixed at sea.

One of Britain’s most advanced warships has aborted a mission to the Gulf and is heading home after breaking down.

HMS Diamond, a £1 billion Type 45 destroyer, had problems with a propeller that could not be fixed at sea despite the efforts of sailors on board.

It is the latest debacle to beset the Royal Navy’s fleet of six destroyers, built by BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce, which started entering service eight years ago.

The other five warships are in Portsmouth because of routine maintenance, a shortage of sailors and problems with the engine, which struggles in warm water.

There is not thought to be any other ship, including among a fleet of 13 Type 23 frigates, that is ready to sail to replace HMS Diamond, which had been two months into a nine-month deployment. This means that Britain will be unable to perform a long-running commitment to provide reassurance to allies in the Gulf region.

:gun

 

[SpazSinbad]

Carrier Queen Elizabeth, F-35B meets LSO, Flyco

Carrier Queen Elizabeth, F-35B meets LSO, Flyco

The RN FAA CMDR Pilot talking in the video is Nathan Gray, who will become the 1st F-35B test pilot onboard QE next year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SWmppbyvLc

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Seems HMS Queen Elizabeth has encountered a glitch during her sea trials. She's sprung a leak around one of her propeller shafts.

As you might expect, the Daily Mail is reporting it as a catastrophe: Big Lizzie springs a leak: Royal Navy's £3.1bn aircraft carrier launched just weeks ago develops 'significant' defect that could cost millions to repair
Seems she's taking on around 200 liters of water an hour (~53 gallons for the rest of you standard measurement folks) from a faulty inflatable shaft seal. And will need to be dry-docked to effect repairs.

The BBC's reporting is a tad less panicked: HMS Queen Elizabeth: Leak found on new aircraft carrier
Noting that Royal Navy has stated she's "... scheduled for repair while she is alongside at Portsmouth. ..." and that the problem won't stop the ship from sailing, and that the sea trials program won't be effected

 

[oldsig127]

Seems she's taking on around 200 liters of water an hour (~53 gallons for the rest of you standard measurement folks) from a faulty inflatable shaft seal. And will need to be dry-docked to effect repairs.

...or 44 gallons for the older Royal Navy hand whose standard is unlikely to be US gallons.

You can trust the press to inflate the seriousness of any fault and report it as much of a scandal as they think is "credible" (among the incredulous, anyway). I wonder why they think Navies conduct sea trials if not to uncover teething problems, big and small, and to start to develop procedures around the realities of a real ship rather than a paper one.

oldsig

 

[Milne Bay]

...or 44 gallons for the older Royal Navy hand whose standard is unlikely to be US gallons.

You can trust the press to inflate the seriousness of any fault and report it as much of a scandal as they think is "credible" (among the incredulous, anyway). I wonder why they think Navies conduct sea trials if not to uncover teething problems, big and small, and to start to develop procedures around the realities of a real ship rather than a paper one.

oldsig

My old tinnie would leak about 44 gallons an hour.
Didn't stop us from fishing and generally having fun on the water.
Totally insignificant for us and not worth mentioning in a vessel any larger than a tinnie
MB

 

[StingrayOZ]

My old tinnie would leak about 44 gallons an hour.
Didn't stop us from fishing and generally having fun on the water.
Totally insignificant for us and not worth mentioning in a vessel any larger than a tinnie
MB

Its not uncommon for seals needing attention after a ship is completed and done some trials. 44 gallons isn't a huge amount, if it was 4400 gallons per hour then yeh, thats not so good. 44 gallons sounds like they just need to refit the seals more carefully, perhaps a minor tweaking with tolerances, and monitor them particularly during high speed running (which is what I imagine a lot of what she has been doing).

200l per hour is about 50mL per second. It is literally pissing into a cup leaking. Must be a slow news day.

 

[alexsa]

Its not uncommon for seals needing attention after a ship is completed and done some trials. 44 gallons isn't a huge amount, if it was 4400 gallons per hour then yeh, thats not so good. 44 gallons sounds like they just need to refit the seals more carefully, perhaps a minor tweaking with tolerances, and monitor them particularly during high speed running (which is what I imagine a lot of what she has been doing).

200l per hour is about 50mL per second. It is literally pissing into a cup leaking. Must be a slow news day.

Shaft seals are an issue. I agree it wont stop the sea trials but it needs to be fixed as a matter of priority if the shaft bearing is not to be effected. This depends on the design of the bearing but in every cases having salt water in the bearing is not a good thing.

So a beat up yes ..... this will be a warranty issue. But it is a problem that needs to be fixed.

 

[rossfrb_1]

One news site put some context in the story noting the ships bilge system could hold 83000 litres of water and even without any draining would take 17 days to fill up that reserve.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...e-problem-may-be-overstated-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

The nature of news reporting these days is extremely poor and defence appears no exception.
rb

 

[StobieWan]

well, she's alongside right now so they're presumably sorting that. I note the BBC repeated the old saw that there are no jets to fly off her, despite the 14th B being purchased today. Tempted to pop into one of my old haunts and revive one of the numerous threads claiming they'd never buy more than four jets because that's all they'd committed to at the time of the discussion.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Shaft seals are an issue. I agree it wont stop the sea trials but it needs to be fixed as a matter of priority if the shaft bearing is not to be effected. This depends on the design of the bearing but in every cases having salt water in the bearing is not a good thing.

So a beat up yes ..... this will be a warranty issue. But it is a problem that needs to be fixed.

Of course we all remember the issues with the last large European carrier to be built. Charles De Gaulle. Radio activity issues, propellers that snapped in operation and required props off Foch, a flight deck 14 ft too small.. 20% budget overrun. Vibration issues etc.

Look at the issues the RAN are dealing with on the LHD.

A small leak hardly seems catastrophic. If that is all there is they have done very well.

 

[t68]

Of course we all remember the issues with the last large European carrier to be built. Charles De Gaulle. Radio activity issues, propellers that snapped in operation and required props off Foch, a flight deck 14 ft too small.. 20% budget overrun. Vibration issues etc.

Look at the issues the RAN are dealing with on the LHD.

A small leak hardly seems catastrophic. If that is all there is they have done very well.

Well said

 

[spoz]

Look at the issues the RAN are dealing with on the LHD.

Were dealing with; they seem to have been sorted. Nevertheless, the point (that all new ships have issues of some sort) is well made.

 

[alexsa]

Of course we all remember the issues with the last large European carrier to be built. Charles De Gaulle. Radio activity issues, propellers that snapped in operation and required props off Foch, a flight deck 14 ft too small.. 20% budget overrun. Vibration issues etc.

Look at the issues the RAN are dealing with on the LHD.

A small leak hardly seems catastrophic. If that is all there is they have done very well.

Right, I did not say it was catastrophic but it is not something to scoff at is trivial by relating it to other unrelated events. Lets face it the pods on the LHD bear absolutely no relation to this situation as this is a shaft line. The fact that the French made a mess of elements of the CdG design is irrelevant noting the propeller issues related to the design and construction of the props themselves. It had nothing to do with the seals.


This is still serious but .... as it is a new ship .... is a builder issue.


The seal is designed to stop water getting into the stern tube. "inflatable seals' are generally a back up device to stop water getting in in the event of the failure of the mechanical seal.


Stern tube sealing arrangements- Marine propeller shaft Guideline


If the report is correct and water is getting past the seal and into the hull through the stern tube then the stern bearing is likely to be effected. I suspect the news reporting has it slightly wrong because if the inflatable seal is not holding that is a problem. However it could be a water lubricated stern tube and the water is leaking past the inner gland. Basically we are assuming the press know what they are talking about. It could be a seal issue and they are relying on the inflatable seal in harbor .... who knows.


The attachment give details of the various shaft seal arrangements, lubrication of the stern tube

 

[StingrayOZ]

Right, I did not say it was catastrophic but it is not something to scoff at is trivial by relating it to other unrelated events.

Sorry Alexa, wasn't having a go at you, more leveling that at the over keen press to make mountains out of mole hills. The problem they are facing is unrelated to the other issues on other new ships, but I was making a general point about new ships. Big projects can carry big risk, and even fairly straight forward large ships can be very problematic. The risk can be managed, big projects are achievable.

Given the size and scope of the project, and the fact nothing like this had been attempted in many years, if this is the biggest problem the builders and designers have to rectify, they have done well. This project, being a big naval build received heavy press and plenty of political interference. I really hope they get a very capable ship out of it, as it wasn't without sacrifice and shifting priorities.

I would wait until some more definitive publications cover the issue after gets fixed. I would be sceptical if the daily mail told me the sky was blue.

given the size and importance of the project, I assume many will use it as a case study, hopefully in how to do things right.