The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[StobieWan]

The "we're not assaulting a beach any time soon" is a straw man argument in my opinion - but you can use those ships to insert troops or supplies into areas without working harbour facilities, which is a very useful capability.

Just because we're not restaging Overlord any time soon doesn't mean amphib ops are done. Keeping them around opens the window for raids, HADR, stabilisation missions, the list is long.

We've been down this route before in the 1980's, but thankfully nothing went wrong..uh..oh, well, apart from that thing the South Atlantic but other than that, it was totally fine.

There's plenty of places in the world where being able to rock up, establish local air superiority and then evacuate nationals or otherwise execute policy via a small, trained and well equipped force can be invaluable.

 

[Todjaeger]

The "we're not assaulting a beach any time soon" is a straw man argument in my opinion - but you can use those ships to insert troops or supplies into areas without working harbour facilities, which is a very useful capability.

Just because we're not restaging Overlord any time soon doesn't mean amphib ops are done. Keeping them around opens the window for raids, HADR, stabilisation missions, the list is long.

We've been down this route before in the 1980's, but thankfully nothing went wrong..uh..oh, well, apart from that thing the South Atlantic but other than that, it was totally fine.

There's plenty of places in the world where being able to rock up, establish local air superiority and then evacuate nationals or otherwise execute policy via a small, trained and well equipped force can be invaluable.

One of the impressions I have formed, is that a number of the features which make for a good amphib, also tend to make such vessels good command ships. Having an amphib going around in circles in the Indian Ocean off the Horn of Africa while it helps keep track of the coalition of naval vessels conducting anti-piracy patrols can be very useful. The support functions which can be available (like an onboard surgical suite/hospital) as well as plenty of potential space to detain suspected pirates or hold seized contraband, which might be rather difficult for combatants...

 

[swerve]

The Danes sent Absalon to the anti-pirate patrol off Somalia.Not an amphibious ship, but some of the same characteristics.

Auxiliaries have also been sent. Again, they tend to have space & facilities which fit the role, as well as being able to support smaller pirate chasers.

 

[ASSAIL]

One of the impressions I have formed, is that a number of the features which make for a good amphib, also tend to make such vessels good command ships. Having an amphib going around in circles in the Indian Ocean off the Horn of Africa while it helps keep track of the coalition of naval vessels conducting anti-piracy patrols can be very useful. The support functions which can be available (like an onboard surgical suite/hospital) as well as plenty of potential space to detain suspected pirates or hold seized contraband, which might be rather difficult for combatants...

The old RAN converted Fairfax County Amphibs Manoora and Kanimbla were used as command platforms in the IO. They also impressed during deployments to Hawaii during RIMPAC
They had extensive C2 capabilities and were extremely successful, a fact which led to the comprehensive command infrastructure being built into the 2 new Canberra Class.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Australia is using its amphibious capability to build relationships with other nations. Take a look at Indo-Pacific endeavor.

Amphibious ships provide a platform for two nations to train together to reach a common goal. Joint mission or just joint training to learn from each other.

It looks to be highly successful with East Timor, Indonesia, Philippines all responding warming to visits (and another dozen nations to be visited). Australia willing to help other nations develop their own amphibious capability and also offer joint training capability.

IMO its a huge part of Australia lifting its standing as a major regional power. We are seen as someone that can tangibly project boots on the ground across the region, a region we are permanently in. For many countries dealing with the US has been difficult for a variety of reasons, and Australia seems to be filling the void given recent events. Recent decline of UK amphibious capability also raises question of UK capability to project power into the region in a tangible way. Australia provides real alliance power, with less baggage and an easier and real security partner.

Its more than just HDAR. But it is also more than just full scale amphibious landings in a peer war environment. Its about being able to project a full range of capabilities as a major power.

A country like the Philippines has a broad range of needs that it can't do by itself. It looks to major powers as allies that can help it. Humanitarian, policing, counter insurgency, diplomacy, political support etc.

Australia is looking more and more like the real tangible regional power as the other great powers are somewhat confused currently. In the UK the decline of amphibious power and political will to use and engage with it is not sending strong signals about the future.

 

[hauritz]

wrong section

 

[spoz]

The new OPV will apparently have no requirement for a hanger and will only be required to operate light UAVs.

Only the Fassmer design will offer a hanger. Fassmer and Lussen will be able to operate larger helicopters while the Damen proposal looks limited to operating UAVs.

Very little thought given to fo the future here.

These OPVs will presumably remain in service for 20 years or more and it seems like a massive opportunity lost if the navy just ends up with ship capable of constabulary work.

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/maritime-antisub/1490-sea-1180-a-case-of-missed-opportunity-aspi

As has been noted on the RAN thread, there is no evidence that ASPI, a private think tank, has any particular special access to data about Sea 1180 and may well be extrapolating from a Damen model shown at the recent Pacific 2017 which itself may or may not have been related to the OPV offer. The Project has remained remarkably, and commendably, free of leaks and we will just have to wait until the decision is released.

 

[kato]

Auxiliaries have also been sent. Again, they tend to have space & facilities which fit the role, as well as being able to support smaller pirate chasers.

Which led to funny situations too.

During 2009, Germany had - among other assets - a tanker stationed with Atalanta; a former civilian ship, retrofitted with RAS gear in the 70s, no weapons, civilian crew. Somali pirates mistook it for a possible target when they encountered her in a convoy and attacked. The ship not only fended them off but then gave chase until arresting them together with a boarding team from a nearby frigate.

As for amphibs, yeah, they're off the Horn of Africa. At least with EU NAVFOR they're not really used that much for pirate chasing though, but instead (apart from their role as flagships) to host training missions - both security-related and more civilian - with the Puntlandian government, more recently branching out to other nearby countries - e.g. HNLMS Rotterdam, down there right now, hosted military exercises with the Seychelles Coast Guard.

 

[AegisFC]

The USN used to publish underway time by class and type and the amphibs spent the most time underway. A big empty box with a large flight deck is just too useful.

Which led to funny situations too.

During 2009, Germany had - among other assets - a tanker stationed with Atalanta; a former civilian ship, retrofitted with RAS gear in the 70s, no weapons, civilian crew. Somali pirates mistook it for a possible target when they encountered her in a convoy and attacked. The ship not only fended them off but then gave chase until arresting them together with a boarding team from a nearby frigate.

I remember that. About the same time they attacked a USN Tico for some reason, not exactly the smartest people.

 

[Blackshoe]

I remember that. About the same time they attacked a USN Tico for some reason, not exactly the smartest people.

Went after an FFG (in the dark, as well). One poor SOB caught a Bushmaster round to the chest, with extremely poor (and immediate) results for his health.

 

[swerve]

And the French supply ship Somme (same class as HMAS Success) in 2009. That didn't work out very well for the pirates.

 

[John Fedup]

The UK will investigate the feasibility of CEAFAR for future UK ships. I guess this a way to enhance the Type 26 for Australia.

UK Looks to CEA Radar for Navy

 

[StobieWan]

The UK will investigate the feasibility of CEAFAR for future UK ships. I guess this a way to enhance the Type 26 for Australia.

UK Looks to CEA Radar for Navy

That's interesting - I suspect it's an export push rather than a declaration to include CEAFAR on RN ships but I'd be happy if it turned out to be the latter.

 

[Vulcan]

Must be a bit late to put it on Type 26 (for UK), surely?

 

[t68]

Must be a bit late to put it on Type 26 (for UK), surely?

I suspect preliminary design work would have been done, but since they havnt won the contract as yet working drawings would have to be made. I wonder how much would actually have to change from the foot print of CEAFAR to Artisan Radar?

 

[hauritz]

Must be a bit late to put it on Type 26 (for UK), surely?

Maybe ... but it is a scalable system that could be ideal for the Type31.

 

[ASSAIL]

Maybe ... but it is a scalable system that could be ideal for the Type31.

The real work is not the mast changes because that's relatively easy at this stage. It's the integration of the radar into the CMS.

 

[ASSAIL]

Maybe ... but it is a scalable system that could be ideal for the Type31.

Artisan and CEAFAR are both E/F band radars used for the same thing, search, target acquisition and in a Sea Dart or ESSM application, target illumination (not needed for Sea Ceptor and ESSM Blk II)
Therefor. It's a like for like exchange, just updated technology.
T31e is larger than ANZAC so nothing scalable required.

 

[StingrayOZ]

As I recall there had been RAN people attached to the Type 26 and Ceafar had been flagged from the beginning.

Because of Australia's interest in the Type 26 this has been included as a possibility for a long time.
BAE Systems signs Future Frigate design contract with Australian Government | BAE Systems | International
BAE Systems told to refine Type 26 design for new Australian frigates | Naval Today

Conversations and specifications had been part of the type 26 project from sometime in 2013.
Defence Cooperation with Australia and the Type 26 Global Combat Ship - Think Defence

CEA's radars come in different sizes and costs depending on what you want. For the Type 31, something like what the Anzacs current have would be idea.

 

[StobieWan]

I suspect preliminary design work would have been done, but since they havnt won the contract as yet working drawings would have to be made. I wonder how much would actually have to change from the foot print of CEAFAR to Artisan Radar?

The mast is entirely modular for 26 or was supposed to be - and CEAFAR would sit lower down- the physical foot print is an easy peasy item as CEAFAR is intended for or can be fitted to much smaller ships. As has been said, integration into CMS, that's something else but I suspect this isn't intended. Someone will do a design study and announce "why, this will work *wonderfully" and that'll keep the export hopes alive a bit longer. Alternatively, they could go with CEAFAR for the 26 and install Artisan in the 31's I'm not sure why they would at this stage.

Artisan is basically a jobs for BAE program right now and the installed base would stretch to about 19 sets, or about a third the size of the install base of Smart S Mk2 so chucking that in the bin and adding a third radar set right now seems awkward.