Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
What would you make of the current opposition to a Kermadec marine reserve by NZ First, as quoted on the news recently? Greens and Labour want Nationals plan to go through, I wonder even with an extra OPV, how are we going to cope patrolling such a vast area?

This is surely only going to become far worse, once the IPV's are retired. They aren't being replaced one for one, so the new OPV when it finally arrives will obviously have to cover some of those roles?
Winston First's corporate donations mainly came through the commercial fishing industry - and that is what they wanted so he delivered on that. Only the Greens and National wanted the reserve as firm policy, Labour has sat on the fence about it as its Maori MP's are not keen - but it was one of Winston's bottom lines.

However, National will put up a Private Members Bill into the Ballot and if drawn (and there is some chance of that happening during this term) then the Greens will be called out politically as 'anti the environment' if they are not seen supporting it.

If the last two IPV's are replaced by a further 4th OPV then it is an improvement. The IPV's unfortunately the lack range and technology to be relevant in our emerging maritime context as OPV's are double the range and three times the endurance with only 30% larger core crew and are far more versatile.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Winston First's corporate donations mainly came through the commercial fishing industry - and that is what they wanted so he delivered on that. Only the Greens and National wanted the reserve as firm policy, Labour has sat on the fence about it as its Maori MP's are not keen - but it was one of Winston's bottom lines.

However, National will put up a Private Members Bill into the Ballot and if drawn (and there is some chance of that happening during this term) then the Greens will be called out politically as 'anti the environment' if they are not seen supporting it.

If the last two IPV's are replaced by a further 4th OPV then it is an improvement. The IPV's unfortunately the lack range and technology to be relevant in our emerging maritime context as OPV's are double the range and three times the endurance with only 30% larger core crew and are far more versatile.
Will the littoral operations support vessel be ice strengthened I wonder, could it assist in this role?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Will the littoral operations support vessel be ice strengthened I wonder, could it assist in this role?
With a dedicated SOPV and two 1C Ice Class OPV's as a contingency - probably not a goer. But a supplementary role of the future LOSV's like its forebears Tui, Monowai, Resolution and Manawanui is to offer an additional presence and patrol capability.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
The latest Navy Today is out and whilst I have received my print copy, the online copy is not available yet. On page 6 it states that the cost of the 3rd OPV is $320 million and "is 'realistically' expected to be operating by 2023." The LOSC project went to tender last year but the scope of works is being revisited. They've also started work on a FSC (Future Surface Combatant) process (P.8). This is in the very beginning stages and they and the next formal step is too seek Approval to Initiate the Project. Since the current FFG's are due to retire until around 2030, they are wise to start looking at it now. They don't know yet what the FSC will be or any other details, but are starting the process to look at what the strategic maritime situation is and what technologies are available and what may or may not be pertinent to the NZG and RNZN.
New Zealand set to start search for ANZAC frigate replacement | Jane's 360

Someone in Janes clearly has a hard-copy subscription, as the PDF still isn't up on the website. It makes me wonder if they think some content may not be appropriate given there is a new government in place, which may have different priorities.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
https://vardmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/VARD-7-100-AOPS.pdf

The VARD 7 100 ICE being a larger ice capable variant of the Protector OPV's and basis of the Canadian Arctic Offshore Patrol Ship makes sense in my view. It should be able to come in around the $320m mark.

As for the LOSC there is the VARD 9 design which is a development of the HMS Echo Class an Suvery/Oceanographic vessel which is able to deploy Dive and MCM capabilities. https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/echo

It would be interesting to see what overall synergies can be alligned between the current Protector OPV's, an VARD 7 ICE design and a VARD 9 variant in the LOSC solution with a view to alleviating the training and support headaches of having too many orphan designs in the small RNZN fleet. The HMS Echo and Enterprise have done patrols in the Med which shows their versatility for the RN.

Anyway a good article on the ice implications of OPV's in the Journal of Marine Engineering & Technology

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/20464177.2014.11658118
An alternative strategy to maximise commonality in the NZ fleet would be ignore the existing OPVs and strive to use the same systems in the three planned new ships. For example, use Rolls Royce propellers/rudders/winches, Bergen diesels and MTU generators/electricals.

Ideally, choose RR designs for all three and have Hyundai construct them. The RR portfolio of offshore support vessels is large enough that existing designs should be readily adapted to meet the LOSC and Southern OPV requirements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RRS_Sir_David_Attenborough

For the latter case, perhaps a scaled-down version of the original 'Boaty McBoatface'?
 
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Norm

Member
New Zealand set to start search for ANZAC frigate replacement | Jane's 360

Someone in Janes clearly has a hard-copy subscription, as the PDF still isn't up on the website. It makes me wonder if they think some content may not be appropriate given there is a new government in place, which may have different priorities.
I heard it from several sources that pre election the $183M spend to upgrade Te Mana was on hold by the Nats as it was material enough not to commit pre Election.They were in favour of it happening.
Original it would have been happening 2017.
Links to project background.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/295797/navy-frigates'-upgrade-to-cost-$440m
https://www.defence.govt.nz/what-we...ac-ships-upgrade-frigate-systems-upgrade-fsu/
http://tangentlink.com/wp-content/u...and-Naval-Fleet-Captain-Jon-Finderup-RNZN.pdf

Ron Marks first test to get this over the line!!
 

CJR

Active Member
I see there's a certain rust-bucket flying the Kiwi flag tied up here in Hobart today. Anyone have any idea what HMNZS Endeavour is doing on this side of the Tasman Sea?

And do we need to reactivate the old 8in Armstrong Rifled Muzzle Loaders at Kangaroo Bluff to make sure she doesn't come back 'ere again?
:laugh
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I see there's a certain rust-bucket flying the Kiwi flag tied up here in Hobart today. Anyone have any idea what HMNZS Endeavour is doing on this side of the Tasman Sea?

And do we need to reactivate the old 8in Armstrong Rifled Muzzle Loaders at Kangaroo Bluff to make sure she doesn't come back 'ere again?
:laugh
She's on her paying off trip so unsure why she is terrorising Tassie, unless she is doing something in conjunction with the RAN.

I wouldn't worry about reactivating the muzzle loaders; you'd just need to breathe on her :laugh
 

Lgjonesxjs

New Member
She's on her paying off trip so unsure why she is terrorising Tassie, unless she is doing something in conjunction with the RAN.

I wouldn't worry about reactivating the muzzle loaders; you'd just need to breathe on her :laugh
I read somewhere but can't find it now that she was going to support the RAN one last time. I think while HMAS Sirius was on deployment with HMAS Adelaide in the Northern pacific.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
She's on her paying off trip so unsure why she is terrorising Tassie, unless she is doing something in conjunction with the RAN.

I wouldn't worry about reactivating the muzzle loaders; you'd just need to breathe on her :laugh
So be warned if go near her don't breathe too strongly, it may be advisable to hold your breath so there is no diplomatic repercussions.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So be warned if go near her don't breathe too strongly, it may be advisable to hold your breath so there is no diplomatic repercussions.

She's been a damned good resource for the RNZN over nearly 30 years, acquired and run at relatively low cost. We on this board could actually be a little gentle with her at the end of her life, couldn't we?

I was present in about 1990 when the Kiwi rep at an RAN conference did a short presentation on her acquisition - he and by inference the program got a standing ovation.....
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
She's been a damned good resource for the RNZN over nearly 30 years, acquired and run at relatively low cost. We on this board could actually be a little gentle with her at the end of her life, couldn't we?

I was present in about 1990 when the Kiwi rep at an RAN conference did a short presentation on her acquisition - he and by inference the program got a standing ovation.....
I was not being serious and she has been a very successful acquisition by RNZN and in some quarters was rated as an asset right up there with the frigates due to the limited number of resupply tankers in the southern hemisphere. My main gripe about her was that her replacement was as normal for the RNZN held up miles to long by the pollies, But we need to remember that Endeavour is just a ship , a piece of machinery and her soul is her crew who will move on to other things and are not being laid up. If I have offended anyone with this "Sorry" but having been involved in machinery for most of my life from aircraft maintenance, factory and agg machinery work I don't get emotional about machinery , only the people involved in the machinery. for example my car is not named and gets washed when it rains. but the mechanical parts are fully service on time, it is just a hunk of machinery.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I was not being serious and she has been a very successful acquisition by RNZN and in some quarters was rated as an asset right up there with the frigates due to the limited number of resupply tankers in the southern hemisphere. My main gripe about her was that her replacement was as normal for the RNZN held up miles to long by the pollies, But we need to remember that Endeavour is just a ship , a piece of machinery and her soul is her crew who will move on to other things and are not being laid up. If I have offended anyone with this "Sorry" but having been involved in machinery for most of my life from aircraft maintenance, factory and agg machinery work I don't get emotional about machinery , only the people involved in the machinery. for example my car is not named and gets washed when it rains. but the mechanical parts are fully service on time, it is just a hunk of machinery.

Oh, I certainly wasn't offended; just thought it worth putting on record the fact that she has done what she was acquired to do, and more, over her life.
 

CJR

Active Member
Well, she's still here in Hobart, despite the stiff breeze she's yet to crumble to dust either.
Doesn't make sense to stay here more than a day or so if she's supporting the RAN (beeline to Sydney or Perth). Hasn't been any talk of an open ship in the Hobart Mockery, (also doesn't seem to be any random Kiwi sailors wandering town) so I'd assume it's not intended as a goodwill visit.

Possible she's put in here due to a busted engine or similar? Would assume there'd be more fuss made if that was the case...
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Well, she's still here in Hobart, despite the stiff breeze she's yet to crumble to dust either.
Doesn't make sense to stay here more than a day or so if she's supporting the RAN (beeline to Sydney or Perth). Hasn't been any talk of an open ship in the Hobart Mockery, (also doesn't seem to be any random Kiwi sailors wandering town) so I'd assume it's not intended as a goodwill visit.

Possible she's put in here due to a busted engine or similar? Would assume there'd be more fuss made if that was the case...
RNZN FB post shows she has been working with HMAS Stuart on her final deployment with the RAN and next week (14-20 Nov) she will be conducting her final Homeport visit to New Plymouth before decommissioning. I guess she's still in port for a few days of crew R&R before departing back to NZ?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
She's been a damned good resource for the RNZN over nearly 30 years, acquired and run at relatively low cost. We on this board could actually be a little gentle with her at the end of her life, couldn't we?

I was present in about 1990 when the Kiwi rep at an RAN conference did a short presentation on her acquisition - he and by inference the program got a standing ovation.....
The Old E is an unsung hero and you are absolutely right about her usefulness for both the RNZN and the RAN over the years. And what a leap in capability will her replacement be.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
RNZN FB post shows she has been working with HMAS Stuart on her final deployment with the RAN and next week (14-20 Nov) she will be conducting her final Homeport visit to New Plymouth before decommissioning. I guess she's still in port for a few days of crew R&R before departing back to NZ?
Is she paying off this December? James has her listed to bow out in 2019, if so she certantly going to be missed.

The Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN) has given further details, including winterisation features, of the new 24,000-tonne fleet tanker that will replace HMNZS Endeavour, which is due to retire in 2019.
New Zealand discloses further details of navy's new fleet tanker | Jane's 360
 

ngatimozart

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Staff member
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The RN's River class meets all those requirements except the last one. Given that new ones are being built as a BAE make-work project and the RN has no idea what to do with them, perhaps they would part with one of the Batch 1's at a bearable cost?

More realistically, the rumour that has floated around for the past year or so about leasing an offshore support vessel as a stop-gap replacement for the hydrographic and diving teams was presumably designed to address this hull shortage. Nothing has been heard for a while, so no idea if anything will come of it.
Our Royal Navy friends are at present selling or preparing to sell a number of vessels - including three batch 1 River Class (Severn de-comm'd last month and Clyde and Mersey going in 2019) and the research / hydrographic vessel the HMS Scott which has recently benefited from a MLR and will be gone by 2022. Also two MCM vessels Quorn and Atherstone are also going as is HMS Ocean, Bulwark and Albion, which the Brazilians are interested in and some Type 23's which the Chileans are looking at. Evidently the Ocean is offered for £80.3 million.

If you are an idealist, perfectionist and/or ship snob who thinks we can instant up a better quick fix for such modest money or throw money at it then - don't read the following.

Back in 2009 the UK MinDef bought the 5-6 year old leased Batch 1 Rivers for £39 million as a joblot. Each vessel costed around £5 million per annum to operate in RN service. All have had fairly recent refits - said to have 10-15 years of reliable life ahead of them. By all accounts they are not in a rubbish thrashed condition compared to the 20 year old early Leander Frigates - at least that kept us as a four frigate Navy for another 15 years - when we may have well been a 2 Frigate Navy by 1984 and a zero Frigate Navy by 2004!

Even with a further pre RNZN service refit/refresh these could well be a good opportunity at what would be fire-sale prices - we have a patrol capability gap as noted by the CN earlier this year - and three Batch 1 Rivers would effectively replace the limited and slightly younger IPV's and get us through to the 2030's when the current two Protectors are likely to be replaced - thus allowing a sequenced build of replacement OPV hulls.

The RN is retaining the Tyne in the interim as it is being used in the training role for the MCM squadron - which suggests one of the three for sale vessels could cover the Manawanui whilst the LOSC is in the pipeline.

Only the Clyde has a flight deck and no hanger, but one need not get hung up about that (think S100 as a work around) - nor have the IPV's and yes they would not be able to patrol south of Cambell Island - but the SOPV would and the two current 1C Ice Protectors would back that up. The B1 Rivers would be ideal for South Pacific, EEZ and northern sea lane approaches for patrol and presence work - and in comparison to the IPV's far greater utility for other roles such as maritime fire-fighting, disaster relief, anti-pollution work (think Rena), and the Severn and Mersey with their strengthen deck and 25 tonne crane able to embark and disembark light vehicles, palletised cargo, smaller TCU containers.

Three solid unspectacular EEZ workhorse's for probably half the price of one new build VARD 7 80-90m OPV like the Samuel Beckett Class for over a decade of useful work. With the SOPV we would then effectively have six OPV's rather than two OPV and four IPV's - and get a heck of a lot more capability without a dramatic increase in personnel numbers required or annual M22 output funding. When the HMS Tyne eventually comes available snap that up as a parts mule / alongside training / accommodation vessel.

Cheers, MrC
 
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Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Our Royal Navy friends are at present selling or preparing to sell a number of vessels - including three batch 1 River Class (Severn de-comm'd last month and Clyde and Mersey going in 2019) and the research / hydrographic vessel the HMS Scott which has recently benefited from a MLR and will be gone by 2022. Also two MCM vessels Quorn and Atherstone are also going as is HMS Ocean, Bulwark and Albion, which the Brazilians are interested in and some Type 23's which the Chileans are looking at. Evidently the Ocean is offered for £80.3 million.

If you are an idealist, perfectionist and/or ship snob who thinks we can instant up a better quick fix for such modest money or throw money at it then - don't read the following.

Back in 2009 the UK MinDef bought the 5-6 year old leased Batch 1 Rivers for £39 million as a joblot. Each vessel costed around £5 million per annum to operate in RN service. All have had fairly recent refits - said to have 10-15 years of reliable life ahead of them. By all accounts they are not in a rubbish thrashed condition compared to the 20 year old early Leander Frigates - at least that kept us as a four frigate Navy for another 15 years - when we may have well been a 2 Frigate Navy by 1984 and a zero Frigate Navy by 2004!

Even with a further pre RNZN service refit/refresh these could well be a good opportunity at what would be fire-sale prices - we have a patrol capability gap as noted by the CN earlier this year - and three Batch 1 Rivers would effectively replace the limited and slightly younger IPV's and get us through to the 2030's when the current two Protectors are likely to be replaced - thus allowing a sequenced build of replacement OPV hulls.

The RN is retaining the Tyne in the interim as it is being used in the training role for the MCM squadron - which suggests one of the three for sale vessels could cover the Manawanui whilst the LOSC is in the pipeline.

Only the Clyde has a flight deck and no hanger, but one need not get hung up about that (think S100 as a work around) - nor have the IPV's and yes they would not be able to patrol south of Cambell Island - but the SOPV would and the two current 1C Ice Protectors would back that up. The B1 Rivers would be ideal for South Pacific, EEZ and northern sea lane approaches for patrol and presence work - and in comparison to the IPV's far greater utility for other roles such as maritime fire-fighting, disaster relief, anti-pollution work (think Rena), and the Severn and Mersey with their strengthen deck and 25 tonne crane able to embark and disembark light vehicles, palletised cargo, smaller TCU containers.

Three solid unspectacular EEZ workhorse's for probably half the price of one new build VARD 7 80-90m OPV like the Samuel Beckett Class for over a decade of useful work. With the SOPV we would then effectively have six OPV's rather than two OPV and four IPV's - and get a heck of a lot more capability without a dramatic increase in personnel numbers required or annual M22 output funding. When the HMS Tyne eventually comes available snap that up as a parts mule / alongside training / accommodation vessel.

Cheers, MrC
I think that this would be a bloody good idea, I don't see the lack of helicopter ability as much of a downer, as I don't think that this is used over much anyway and we don't really have enough choppers anyway. the only down side is that the crews of the current OPV's may get a little scratchy as the would spend most of their time in the cold while their compatriots in the Rivers got good tropical tans.
 
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