Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[StingrayOZ]

Just a bit of Trivia, Poland currently operates 2 Ex USN Perry class Frigates, the General Kazimierz Pulaski (ex USS Clark) and the General Taduesz Kosciuszko* (Ex USS Wadsworth). Im sure all the Aussies on here will recognize the 2nd name* as it shares its name with Australias highest peak, both named after the same person.
It's easy to see why Poland is so interested in the 2 FFGs, they are familar with Perry class Frigates and the Aussie ships are a good decade younger and with the FFGUP are better equiped than the 2 nearly 40yo ships currently in service.

The FFG's to Poland are just a stop gap until they can build two replacement ships. The two Australian FFG's are going to be easy for Poland. Which is why they are chasing them. The ships will just rot with no crew and money to look after them. They will become the pride of the Polish fleet.

Gee, I wonder if they would be interested in a fancy new radar, that interfaces with Aegis and aegis ashore, and someone who can localise their consoles. Maybe some decoys and some other tech. For their new ships.

There are now multiple sites that could build or assemble AWD's/future frigates in Australia.

Now we just need to find homes for the Anzacs...

 

[John Fedup]

Could we have been neutral?


Regards S

No, Australia would been have treasure trove of natural resources too large for Japan to ignore.

 

[oldsig127]

No, Australia would been have treasure trove of natural resources too large for Japan to ignore.

Aside from gold, most of our mineral resources remained undiscovered or unexploited until after WW2. If the Japanese were after natural resources, I expect you mean vast tracts of desert with a fringe of arable land growing (mostly) agricultural products which we lived on but Japan didn't at that time actually use that much. Maybe they just fancied a lamb chop on the barbie.

oldsig

 

[rockitten]

How about some Tigers ... they even have pretty low flying hours.

Sorry mate, we are stuck with that cat until mid 2020s....
Nocookies | The Australian

"However this month, in a signal that Defence is to upgrade the Tiger, big aviation companies were informed by letter that Defence is to “stick with” the Tigers and not to bother pitching alternatives until the 2020s"

And TBH, even if we want to, it will be a real piece of work to find a buyer to "off-load" these cats for a reasonable price...........

 

[Volkodav]

Sorry mate, we are stuck with that cat until mid 2020s....
Nocookies | The Australian

"However this month, in a signal that Defence is to upgrade the Tiger, big aviation companies were informed by letter that Defence is to “stick with” the Tigers and not to bother pitching alternatives until the 2020s"

And TBH, even if we want to, it will be a real piece of work to find a buyer to "off-load" these cats for a reasonable price...........

Interestingly the issues with the Tigers are nothing compared to some other platforms, the primary problem relating to the failure to adequately contract the supply chain side of things. This is why the CoA has so much love for FMS, it looks after the support system side of things for us, the very capabilities that were run down during the 90s. Things are changing but it take time and money to rebuild the required institutional knowledge and capabilities, at least CASG seems to be heading in the right direction as without these skills the ADF will never be able to effectively procure and operate the equipment they need.

 

[spoz]

This is why the CoA has so much love for FMS, it looks after the support system side of things for us, the very capabilities that were run down during the 90s. Things are changing but it take time and money to rebuild the required institutional knowledge and capabilities, at least CASG seems to be heading in the right direction as without these skills the ADF will never be able to effectively procure and operate the equipment they need.

Here, Here. With the benefit of hindsight (and indeed as was suggested by some at the time) the Wrigley review and the DER, and to some extent the initial focus of the DMO when if was first formed, resulted in the loss of significant abilities in the area of support system design and execution. As Volk says first the importance of the skills that were going to be lost had to be recognised, and then the process of reacquiring then begun, in the mean time leaning on the diminishing resource that is/was the older generation who still possess those skills.

 

[rockitten]

Pump-jet is for high speed transit so it won't suprice me that's not a suitable choice for our new sub. Yet, from the "promised" work share to pump jet tech, the sale tactic of the frogs (and the Aussie politicians who bite their bait) really irritated me...

Questions surround Australia's new submarine fleet's ultra-stealth propulsion technology
Questions surround Australia's new submarine fleet's ultra-stealth propulsion technology - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[oldsig127]

Pump-jet is for high speed transit so it won't suprice me that's not a suitable choice for our new sub. Yet, from the "promised" work share to pump jet tech, the sale tactic of the frogs (and the Aussie politicians who bite their bait) really irritated me...

Questions surround Australia's new submarine fleet's ultra-stealth propulsion technology
Questions surround Australia's new submarine fleet's ultra-stealth propulsion technology - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Somewhat predictable given the source. A brief (or it'll explode your head) read of the inane and utterly uninformed comments at the end will tell you the market that the author - a political journalist, not a "defence journalist" - is playing to.

oldsig

Definition: "defence journalist" someone in Australia with a job reporting on defence subjects, unencumbered by any actual knowledge of the subject

 

[Joe Black]

Somewhat predictable given the source. A brief (or it'll explode your head) read of the inane and utterly uninformed comments at the end will tell you the market that the author - a political journalist, not a "defence journalist" - is playing to.

oldsig

Definition: "defence journalist" someone in Australia with a job reporting on defence subjects, unencumbered by any actual knowledge of the subject

But to be honest and truthful, there was always doubt the suitability of using pumpjet on diesel boats. I think Volk or GF pointed out that currently only nuke driven boats are equipped with pumpjets. We might be asking a little beyond what the diesel boats are capable of producing.

Wondering right now for the French to go back on their words on pumpjet solution as the propulsion, does that meant that they have "breached" their offering in the tender thus any contracts that we have signed with them?

 

[StingrayOZ]

Wondering right now for the French to go back on their words on pumpjet solution as the propulsion, does that meant that they have "breached" their offering in the tender thus any contracts that we have signed with them?

The french model was very much an inspiration job. They will build a submarine inspired by Barracuda.

Given they haven't IOC the pumpjets, I would be sceptical anyway (particularly after some of the issues with French propellers).

That said, pumpjets may have a place on diesel boats when battery technology goes all lithium ion. They are far more supportive of high speed sprints able to supply higher current and give greater capacity while giving higher current.

Nuke boats will always have higher transit speeds, but a sustained sprint speed of possibly several hundred kms might be possible. Where you would be able to put a significant amount of distance between to and your enemy, and still have enough juice to stay silent for many days.

But that kind of development is likely to be decades away (if it is suitable). I think we should again talk to the Americans about some sort of propeller.

 

[aussienscale]

The french model was very much an inspiration job. They will build a submarine inspired by Barracuda.

Given they haven't IOC the pumpjets, I would be sceptical anyway (particularly after some of the issues with French propellers).

That said, pumpjets may have a place on diesel boats when battery technology goes all lithium ion. They are far more supportive of high speed sprints able to supply higher current and give greater capacity while giving higher current.

Nuke boats will always have higher transit speeds, but a sustained sprint speed of possibly several hundred kms might be possible. Where you would be able to put a significant amount of distance between to and your enemy, and still have enough juice to stay silent for many days.

But that kind of development is likely to be decades away (if it is suitable). I think we should again talk to the Americans about some sort of propeller.

And what we have to remember here, and correct me if I am wrong ? and totally missed, from what I understand of the process, is that DCNS have not been awarded a contract to actually construct the submarines as yet.

The winning of the CEP process only singled them down to have exclusive negotiating rights for the build, they now have to design and prove what they have claimed in the CEP process. If they can't then the Germans and Japanese are back in the game !

Volk or GF may be able to clarify that a little more

Cheers

 

[t68]

And what we have to remember here, and correct me if I am wrong ? and totally missed, from what I understand of the process, is that DCNS have not been awarded a contract to actually construct the submarines as yet.

The winning of the CEP process only singled them down to have exclusive negotiating rights for the build, they now have to design and prove what they have claimed in the CEP process. If they can't then the Germans and Japanese are back in the game !

Volk or GF may be able to clarify that a little more

Cheers

If that's true I imagine the Germans would like another bite of the cherry. Not so sure of the Japanese tho, they seemed a bit miffed when the French won the tender.

 

[ASSAIL]

If that's true I imagine the Germans would like another bite of the cherry. Not so sure of the Japanese tho, they seemed a bit miffed when the French won the tender.

Can we all wait, take a deep breath and see what evolves from the design process. French propellor classes have been successful acoustically and if the pump jet doesn't evolve to be a success I'm sure there are ready options.
Let's remember that the pump was not the defining reason why DCNS was selected, the many other design features met the criteria.
I'm also reasonably sure that the acquisition Group were well aware of the attempts to drive a Kilo with a pump jet and its subsequent failure, they went into this process with an educated and open mind.

Finally, the French have not won a tender to construct, they have one a tender to submit a design.

 

[vonnoobie]

If that's true I imagine the Germans would like another bite of the cherry. Not so sure of the Japanese tho, they seemed a bit miffed when the French won the tender.

Or better yet we talk government into Collins Mk2.

It is literally the quickest project we could start to replace the current boats.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I wouldn't be too worried about the prop. There are plenty of options of who we can talk to about that, and its something that can be fixed (as we did with Collins). And they did with CdG and other subs and ships. I wouldn't be spending any major time and effort until there is a Barracuda in the water and the hull and flow is better understood.

As I understand it the idea was to build a new submarine, and the idea is that each piece would use Barracuda as a benchmark. So if the equipment is appropriate, Barracuda gear is first of the shelf, if its not, then looking at Scorpene or other OTS type gear. We know it is highly likely they will also be using gear and equipment off US and UK nuclear subs.

The Barracuda is a modern design and is physically massive. It would be approaching nearly double the volume of Collins. The advantage of that is the ability to lift gear off SSN subs from allies and have the space and the power to operate it.

While I think the French were talking about the pumpjet, I don't think it was a big factor in the decision.

I would say things like the sub being ~50% larger than even the Japanese proposal, vertical launch tubes, space for embarked forces, power generation, photonics mast, the fact that the hull was actually being built etc.

 

[John Fedup]

Too bad a reactor couldn’t be lifted off. Politically incorrect unfortunately.

 

[rockitten]

As I understand it the idea was to build a new submarine, and the idea is that each piece would use Barracuda as a benchmark. So if the equipment is appropriate, Barracuda gear is first of the shelf, if its not, then looking at Scorpene or other OTS type gear. We know it is highly likely they will also be using gear and equipment off US and UK nuclear subs.

For that part, that's the biggest concern for option F: How much our yankee cousins will allow the frogs to touch their stuff.

Like, imagine if we want to install that Large Aperture Bow (LAB) array sonar from Viginia class into Barracuda, the frog will be very happy to do so as that's a bonanza of USN's sonar tech, but will USN handover the necessary specs to DCNS?

 

[Todjaeger]

For that part, that's the biggest concern for option F: How much our yankee cousins will allow the frogs to touch their stuff.

Like, imagine if we want to install that Large Aperture Bow (LAB) array sonar from Viginia class into Barracuda, the frog will be very happy to do so as that's a bonanza of USN's sonar tech, but will USN handover the necessary specs to DCNS?

That is not a tough question. The answer would be, "no," at least if the US is being polite. What might be possible is for the US to permit a 3rd party to handle integrating US kit onto the DCNS design. An issue with that though, is that some info will still get provided to DCNS to provide sufficient space for any necessary arrays, cabinets, etc. And then there is the question of whether the integration will be successful due to all the gates to prevent tech date from either leaking or being stolen.

 

[hauritz]

Or better yet we talk government into Collins Mk2.

It is literally the quickest project we could start to replace the current boats.

That ship/sub has sailed ... but it may well be something we look back on in twenty years as a lost opportunity.

The original plan was to build 8 Collins class subs and really we should have stuck with that plan.

Had we applied the lessons we learned from the first batch of subs we could have built a couple of additional subs using the facilities, tooling and training that was already in place. No need for any massive upgrades or anything ... just a natural evolution of that class.

We could then just continue that evolution through the twenties and 30's.

This is what the Japanese and Germans, and I suspect just about every other sub building country does. You take your original design and you continue to develop it.

 

[Muar River]

Can we all wait, take a deep breath and see what evolves from the design process. French propellor classes have been successful acoustically and if the pump jet doesn't evolve to be a success I'm sure there are ready options.
Let's remember that the pump was not the defining reason why DCNS was selected, the many other design features met the criteria.
I'm also reasonably sure that the acquisition Group were well aware of the attempts to drive a Kilo with a pump jet and its subsequent failure, they went into this process with an educated and open mind.

Finally, the French have not won a tender to construct, they have one a tender to submit a design.

This article may be of interest to the discussion on pump jet.

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/m...e-commits-to-pump-jet-propulsion-for-sea-1000