Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ASSAIL]

Wonder where that leaves CEA Tech, out in the cold?

Aegis is not a radar nor does it need SPY-1 to operate. The info released specifically states that CEA radars are to be used and the tactical interface will be supplied by SAAB Australia.
In lay terms Aegis compiles the tactical picture and, with CEC, the strategic picture as well. All the regional Aegis ships from the US, ROK and Japan will be totally compatible.

 

[t68]

Aegis is not a radar nor does it need SPY-1 to operate. The info released specifically states that CEA radars are to be used and the tactical interface will be supplied by SAAB Australia.
In lay terms Aegis compiles the tactical picture and, with CEC, the strategic picture as well. All the regional Aegis ships from the US, ROK and Japan will be totally compatible.

Yep my bad I jumped the gun when I saw the original release in the paper thought they were going down the full Aegis spec combat system again.

 

[ADMk2]

Aegis is not a radar nor does it need SPY-1 to operate. The info released specifically states that CEA radars are to be used and the tactical interface will be supplied by SAAB Australia.
In lay terms Aegis compiles the tactical picture and, with CEC, the strategic picture as well. All the regional Aegis ships from the US, ROK and Japan will be totally compatible.

So the ‘Australian tactical interface’ referred to, is simply the consoles and screens we have chosen, on which the AEGIS compiled tactical picture is to be displayed to the crew?

 

[ASSAIL]

So the ‘Australian tactical interface’ referred to, is simply the consoles and screens we have chosen, on which the AEGIS compiled tactical picture is to be displayed to the crew?

In very basic terms but the complicated work is the integration of the Aegis system into the SAAB network which controls the sensors and weapons.
I'm way too old to fully understand the complexities and would leave that one to Aegis fc

 

[aussienscale]

that's a lot more airspace that could potentially be locked down. Interesting times.

And then some, although not CEC, the SAAB CMS, as stipulated for the OPV etc, and as in use on the LHD's, Supply Ships, Choules etc, can all feed into the tactical picture with information that can be utilised by the CEC capable ships via Link 11/22 etc, so the picture just got a whole lot bigger

Cheers

 

[Boagrius]

And then some, although not CEC, the SAAB CMS, as stipulated for the OPV etc, and as in use on the LHD's, Supply Ships, Choules etc, can all feed into the tactical picture with information that can be utilised by the CEC capable ships via Link 11/22 etc, so the picture just got a whole lot bigger

Cheers

Indeed. That's without getting into the potential contribution of airborne assets like Wedgetail, UAS etc. Further acknowledgement of our changing strategic outlook imo.

 

[Joe Black]

New Approach to Naval Combat Systems

How I read this is that Aegis being chosen as the CMS of choice is mainly in part due to the CEC capability and compatibility with US Navy and the Hobart class. This will ensure that the AWD and the Frigates 5000 (and the US Navy) can share the same picture. With 9LV CMS, this could only pseudo achieved using Link 11/16/22, and possible with reduced capability.

The Saab built Australian tactical interface are consoles that was built as part of the 9LV CMS on the existing ANZAC frigates, LHDs and the new AORs.

As Andrew Davis had put it:
Our 9LV Mk3E system is currently the only CMS in the world that has been integrated with this radar, resulting in the highly effective anti-ship missile defence capability on the Anzac class frigates. We have a close relationship with CEA and have also already completed integration work between 9LV and the CEAFAR 2 radar.”

I also believe part of the 9LV integration with the CEAFAR and other similar sensors will be integrated with AEGIS to form the complete tactical situation picture and share with other CEC nodes.

Anyhoo, here's an interesting article to share.

SEA 5000 combat system in the spotlight at PACIFIC 2017
SEA 5000 combat system in the spotlight at PACIFIC 2017

 

[Joe Black]

Warren King and Navantia

In other news, Warren King has just jointed Navatia Australia as the chair.

Warren King appointed Navantia Australia chair

I wonder if this will give them unfair advantage in the Future Frigate 5000 competition.

 

[Raven22]

Excuse my ignorance, but how will the new AEGIS/CEAFAR ship compare to an AWD in terms of air defence capability? Will it be as capable or less capable? If less, why?

Essentially, does this mean the future frigates will be able to be used for area air defence, or will an AWD still need to come along for the ride?

 

[StingrayOZ]

Interesting hybrid. I would imagine this would enable to incorporate things like CEC and ABM into the "frigates".

I see this as a positive thing for the Frigates and for SAAB as it is likely to give them a lot of additional capability. I would imagine that also allows the RAN to customize the consoles for what ever they want more easily and to integrate other tech without having to go the full aegis route(?).

Combined with the new radar these are going to be very capable ships. They certainly don't seem to be cutting functionality out of them. Which given the recent environment is a very good thing.

The F-5000 I would imagine would be ideal for this role, because we really are ordering aegis capable frigates with very significant air capability. These aren't just ASW frigates(FREMM) or a GP frigate (Type 26). We are certainly leaving the door open on operating and acquiring SM-6 and SM-3.

Having at least 11 aegis capable ships will give the RAN one of the most capable fleets in Asia, and globally. The unique radar will no doubt making them a key addition to any task force.

Which is why I worry about the specs of sea1180 and if every tender has deleted its hanger to meet the requirements.

I wonder if the future frigates can CEC with both the Aegis AWD and other 9LV ships acting as a bridge for data?

Update: I also see the AWD's are getting the SAAB 9LV update when they get updated.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...of-the-growing-threat-of-rogue-states-2017-10

The SAAB Australia tactical interface will also be installed in the Hobart class Destroyers when the Aegis combat management system is upgraded next.
I would guess the AWD and say F-5000 would then have amazing levels of commonality. I would also assume the AWD's might get SM-3 capability?

 

[spoz]

As Andrew Davis had put it:
Our 9LV Mk3E system is currently the only CMS in the world that has been integrated with this radar, resulting in the highly effective anti-ship missile defence capability on the Anzac class frigates. We have a close relationship with CEA and have also already completed integration work between 9LV and the CEAFAR 2 radar.”

I also believe part of the 9LV integration with the CEAFAR and other similar sensors will be integrated with AEGIS to form the complete tactical situation picture and share with other CEC nodes.

SEA 5000 combat system in the spotlight at PACIFIC 2017
SEA 5000 combat system in the spotlight at PACIFIC 2017

Well,that's sort of the point isn't it. Aegis interfaces with a whole bunch of USN equipments, sonars, EW systems, guns, radars, all the rest. If you want to use something else you have two choices (1) ask the USN to integrate it into Aegis for you; they might if they see it's in their interests, but it will be on their priority if they do - and of course they might not; or (2) build an interface which sits between Aegis and your bespoke systems, providing the kind of input that Aegis is expecting for the type of effector or sensor you want.

Assuming the USN has no interest in integrating the CEA radar suite, and potentially other parts of the combat system (sonar for example) then the latter is probably the better choice. You'll still need assistance from the USN, but less than if you want your system fully integrated.

 

[John Newman]

Excuse my ignorance, but how will the new AEGIS/CEAFAR ship compare to an AWD in terms of air defence capability? Will it be as capable or less capable? If less, why?

Essentially, does this mean the future frigates will be able to be used for area air defence, or will an AWD still need to come along for the ride?

That is an interesting question, which I certainly don't know the answer to.

But lets assume (and yes, one should never assume!), but assuming the CEAFAR version that is installed in the Future Frigates is larger, has the range, more power and more capable than currently installed in the Anzac's, and is 'comparable' to SPY in performance, and assuming that the 'backend' AEGIS/SAAB is as capable as AEGIS installed on the AWD's, then the answer is probably yes, they may be able to act as an AWD in their own right.

Hopefully there is some more detailed reporting on the capabilities of the CEAFAR/AEGIS/SAAB combination in the not too distant future.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Excuse my ignorance, but how will the new AEGIS/CEAFAR ship compare to an AWD in terms of air defence capability? Will it be as capable or less capable? If less, why?

Essentially, does this mean the future frigates will be able to be used for area air defence, or will an AWD still need to come along for the ride?

Given that this update of Aegis/9LV will be rolled onto the existing AWD's when they are upgraded, I see it as adding capability. They are specifically talking about missile defence.

The future frigates will be able to do just about everything the AWD's currently do. While there will be some differences (radar for eg), they are more complimentary than exclusive to the role.

I would imagine the frigates would have less space to command a task force and certain aspects like that.

I wonder if this makes it easier to integrate (or have some acceptable level of intergration of) things like JSM or CEAFAR and possibly other things like a 35mm CIWS or other potentially non-US equipment and systems.

I see this as Australia getting 12 Aegis destroyers. Some complimentary differences, but at the core, that is what is now happening.

 

[SteveR]

It sounds more and more like SEA5000 will be a flight II AWD. Unless BAE or Fincantieri put together an absolutely outstanding proposal it is hard to imagine them getting up in this competition.

If it was all about ASW I would say that a case for those ships could be made ... but to add an Aegis combat system and still have the design ready by 2020 must be near impossible.

What I am wondering is whether or not the goal posts for this competition haven't been shifted. It seems like it started out as an ASW frigate but in the space of a year it has evolved more into an air-warfare destroyer.

l.

Just a reminder that AEGIS has developed a sophisticated integrated interface to the MH-60R through Hawklink that is probably strict ITAR that SAAB would never be allowed to emulate. The SH60 RAWS have to operate largely as independent units just sending back contacts to the ANZACs. Even the new MH-60Rs will have to operate like this until a properly integrated Hawklink is fitted.

So AEGIS selection is VERY much about integrated Ship/Helo ASW as well as AAW.

 

[Muar River]

With the investment In AEGIS, is 48VLS the minimum on the new future frigate? This is really positive news for the RAN.

In terms of export opportunities, would AEGIS/CEAFAR2 be of interest to other nations?

 

[John Newman]

In terms of export opportunities, would AEGIS/CEAFAR2 be of interest to other nations?

Putting aside a joint AEGIS/CEAFAR product, the Government has been promoting CEAFAR to the Canadians for their Frigate/Destroyer program.

 

[Joe Black]

Given that this update of Aegis/9LV will be rolled onto the existing AWD's when they are upgraded, I see it as adding capability. They are specifically talking about missile defence.

The future frigates will be able to do just about everything the AWD's currently do. While there will be some differences (radar for eg), they are more complimentary than exclusive to the role.

I would imagine the frigates would have less space to command a task force and certain aspects like that.

I wonder if this makes it easier to integrate (or have some acceptable level of intergration of) things like JSM or CEAFAR and possibly other things like a 35mm CIWS or other potentially non-US equipment and systems.

I see this as Australia getting 12 Aegis destroyers. Some complimentary differences, but at the core, that is what is now happening.

AWD with Spy-1D PESA radar will be able to cover up to 175nm (200+km) (ie. very effective long range air defence). However, the weakness is that it is a Passive array radar, compared to the CEAFAR which is an active array, it lacks the ability to do multiple tracking while scanning. CEAFAR can effectively track more targets while scanning for others using multiple beams, a much better capability for missiles defence when coupled with the CEAMount illuminators which is also based on AESA radar using X-band, thus, allowing it to have multiple channels of fire. Current CEAFAR S-band radar is reported to be have an effective detection range out to about 75km.

AWDs only have two illuminator radars each, and they are based on time-sharing concepts, much less effective than the CEAFAR/CEAMount combo. Plus, SPY-1D radars are not good at tracking supersonic sea skimmers, thus the Hobart class AWDs and Flight II/III of the Burke class are also equipped with Northrop Grumman AN/SPQ-9B X-band pulse Doppler horizon search radar to deal with sea skimmers.

The Future Frigates 5000 are to be equipped with a L-band CEAFAR2 which will have a range much further out than the current S-band CEAFAR1. Theoretically, this will make the Future Frigates even better than the AWDs in some aspect of the air-defence capability. However, with AEGIS Baseline 9 and some minor upgrades to the SPY-1D radars, the AWDs can be transformed into ballistic missiles defence assets, which the Future Frigates with CEAFAR S/L/X possible couldn't in the mean time.

 

[ADMk2]

Given that this update of Aegis/9LV will be rolled onto the existing AWD's when they are upgraded, I see it as adding capability. They are specifically talking about missile defence.

The future frigates will be able to do just about everything the AWD's currently do. While there will be some differences (radar for eg), they are more complimentary than exclusive to the role.

I would imagine the frigates would have less space to command a task force and certain aspects like that.

I wonder if this makes it easier to integrate (or have some acceptable level of intergration of) things like JSM or CEAFAR and possibly other things like a 35mm CIWS or other potentially non-US equipment and systems.

I see this as Australia getting 12 Aegis destroyers. Some complimentary differences, but at the core, that is what is now happening.

I’m not so sure this is an AEGIS/9LV mash-up. Both AEGIS and 9LV are combat systems, as I understand them?

According to this announcement AEGIS is THE combat system and this is being mated to an ‘Australian Tactical Interface’ which is to be developed by SAAB with CEAFAR providing the radar system.

The ‘ATI’ seems to be the link between AEGIS and the CEAFAR radar and provides the tactical information gathered by CEAFAR and AEGIS to the crew.

 

[Muar River]

Putting aside a joint AEGIS/CEAFAR product, the Government has been promoting CEAFAR to the Canadians for their Frigate/Destroyer program.

Thanks, It would be a great outcome for CEA Technologies to attract buyers from other nations.

 

[Joe Black]

I’m not so sure this is an AEGIS/9LV mash-up. Both AEGIS and 9LV are combat systems, as I understand them?

According to this announcement AEGIS is THE combat system and this is being mated to an ‘Australian Tactical Interface’ which is to be developed by SAAB with CEAFAR providing the radar system.

The ‘ATI’ seems to be the link between AEGIS and the CEAFAR radar and provides the tactical information gathered by CEAFAR and AEGIS to the crew.

Yes, AEGIS is the CMS chosen for the future frigates. What I understood is that the Australian Tactical Interface is actually an integration component which was built as part of Australianising the 9LV. In this case, we will be getting Saab to extract that layer that was customised for Australia and integrate that into the AEGIS system. This would mean getting Lockheed Martin to build a bridge/integration layer, possibly data mapping, data conversion, so that the ATI and AEGIS can work together. The ATI has naturally allowed all disparate sensors and systems (such as CEAFAR/CEAMount radars, Sagem Vampir, Kevin Hughes Sharpeyes, Thales sonar etc) to provide and exchange data. So in terms of integrating these disparate non-US systems, it will be much cheaper and quicker to do so than to get LM to do the software code change just for Australia.