Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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StingrayOZ

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APDR interviewed Pyne who advised the first new frigate, while a fully functional fleet unit, will be a prototype for training and experiment. The reasoning being the prototype will overcome the very tight timetable for production.
I would hope that the Frigates see some development over their life times. I see it as a very positive thing that they are willing to include some adaptability in it. Certainly the time table isn't becoming any longer, if anything there is more pressure to get the build up and running.

The APDR is an interesting issue. Lots of stuff in there.

The Damen ad for the sea1180 shows a photoshopped ship, no hanger.. :(
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The Damen ad for the sea1180 shows a photoshopped ship, no hanger..
That is actually the OPV 1400.

That means that Damen and Lurssen are offering ships in the 1400 ton class without hangers. This is despite navy plans to operate unmanned drones from these ships.
 

StingrayOZ

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That is actually the OPV 1400.

That means that Damen and Lurssen are offering ships in the 1400 ton class without hangers. This is despite navy plans to operate unmanned drones from these ships.
Seems like such a waste, given the minimal cost of a hanger and the flexibility can capability that it would allow.

I would rather they build half the number of ships, but with a hanger and UAVx2.I guess all that talk about long range patrols and capabilities was just talk.

So disappointing. :( So sad.

Particularly because the Damen OPV 1400 supports a telescopic hanger which would be ideal for a UAV or a smaller helicopter like the Bell 429 or ES-135 (both in service with the RAN). Something like a Bell 429 fitted for medical would be hugely valuable capability to HDAR or SAR. But even with the state UAV need.. ?

I guess that is a role for the Sea5000 frigates with aegis and 48 cell vls. We can tie them up with yacht rescues and people smugglers, while the OPV's sit and twiddle thumbs.

Maybe the Fassmer proposal has a hanger?
 
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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Seems like such a waste, given the minimal cost of a hanger and the flexibility can capability that it would allow.

I would rather they build half the number of ships, but with a hanger and UAVx2.I guess all that talk about long range patrols and capabilities was just talk.

So disappointing. :( So sad.

Particularly because the Damen OPV 1400 supports a telescopic hanger which would be ideal for a UAV or a smaller helicopter like the Bell 429 or ES-135 (both in service with the RAN). Something like a Bell 429 fitted for medical would be hugely valuable capability to HDAR or SAR. But even with the state UAV need.. ?

I guess that is a role for the Sea5000 frigates with aegis and 48 cell vls. We can tie them up with yacht rescues and people smugglers, while the OPV's sit and twiddle thumbs.

Maybe the Fassmer proposal has a hanger?
Christopher Pyne might have given one clue when he spoke about export opportunities. The RNZN may well be offered an OPV from the Australian builder but they are unlikely to be interested in a 1400 tonne vessel without a hanger/aviation capability. They have been operating their own OPVs of 1900 tonnes mit hanger now for a number of years and would not be interested in anything less capable.
If Pyne is serious then my guess is he would be leaning toward Fassmer a decision also boosted by a 50:50 partnership with Austal. Reason - he keeps the the gates open for NZ, he has a very low risk product (first cut required by beginning 2018 and simple construction) and because of the well known corporate performance of Austal.
Finally, the capability requirement still states that operation further away from the coast in the Indo Pacific is needed so endurance is extremely important which suggests a larger 2000 tonne hull,is needed whoever builds it.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Christopher Pyne might have given one clue when he spoke about export opportunities. The RNZN may well be offered an OPV from the Australian builder but they are unlikely to be interested in a 1400 tonne vessel without a hanger/aviation capability. They have been operating their own OPVs of 1900 tonnes mit hanger now for a number of years and would not be interested in anything less capable.
If Pyne is serious then my guess is he would be leaning toward Fassmer a decision also boosted by a 50:50 partnership with Austal. Reason - he keeps the the gates open for NZ, he has a very low risk product (first cut required by beginning 2018 and simple construction) and because of the well known corporate performance of Austal.
Finally, the capability requirement still states that operation further away from the coast in the Indo Pacific is needed so endurance is extremely important which suggests a larger 2000 tonne hull,is needed whoever builds it.
Actually, it must be coming damn close to the announcement of the winner.

Perhaps the shortness of the time required to start building these ships will play right into the hands of Austal/Fassmer. They have a mature design that seems to tick a lot of the boxes and is ready to go.

On the other hand the tightness of the schedule might be one of the biggest drivers in Lurssen and Damen offering the OPV 80 and OPV 1400 designs instead of the larger OPV85 and OPV 1800.

Lurssen has had some success with its OPV80 design but to date I think the biggest Sea Axe OPV built is the OPV 950.
 
I nearly choked when reading "The British Royal Navy Road To Salvation? Part 2" in Navy magazine.

This article is written by Jonathan Foreman and I note that the Editor of the RN's Naval Review has requested Part 1 about the state of the RN be included on their website. Note the Editor strongly agrees with Part 1 of which I don't have a copy..

I am interested In your thoughts on what is written below (which is not the entire article). I apologise for typos but am very interested on comments on the Type 26 as it relates to the future frigate programme.

"The RN's leadership does bear responsibility for the fact that British warships tend to be conceived like the Type 45 destroyer without proper consideration of financial realities (in the likelihood of severely underfunded defence budgets.

One result of this attitude is warships that are progressively stripped of their planned capabilities in order to save money during the long process of planning and construction, until their final fitness for purpose is dubious at best.

This tendency to plan new classes of ships as if money were no object, as if the fleet were still the size it was during the Falklands War is linked to a parallel failure to take into account the obvious reality that major surface combatants commissioned for a small or very small navy need to be especially versatile.

Common sense dictates that the few destroyers and frigates fielded by a mini navy should be genuine general purpose warships with a speciality, not specialist ships whose designs make minimal concessions to the reality that you don't always get to fight the enemy you want in the way you plan to.

The Type 45 air warfare destroyer is often proclaimed to be the best in the world by the RN and its cheerleaders in the British media are a case in point. They may well field the best anti aircraft and anti missile systems available to any navy. But in almost every other respect the Type 45s are inferior to contemporary competitors around the world and pathetically unforgivably vulnerable to submarine and surface threats unless escorted by other vessels.

Indeed, even if one discounts the teething problems of the Type 45's engines and the design flaw that means the Daring class ships do not produce enough electric power to run their advanced systems while on the move, the Type 45 looks troubling like a TARPUS boat, technically advanced but practically useless, or as rather as Iain Ballentine has pointed out, an analogue of the 1930s battlecruisers which proved impotent against big gunned battleships like the Bismarck.

To justify the frequently made claim that the Type 45 is superior to the latest America Arleigh Burkes and their derivatives, the RN and its media boosters necessarily imagine conflict situations in which the Type 45 will invariably always be accompanied by other vessels with appropriate capabilities., and therefore will be able to survive and win despite its inability to defend itself against other warships, submarines and shore batteries (It goes almost without saying that no other major navy and certainly no serious naval thinkers anywhere in the world outside the UK that single purpose/otherwise defenceless warships like the Type 45 are a sensible idea). In other words, the current philosophy behind the Type 45 depends on a cosy fantasy of future naval warfare.

Claims made and export expectations for the long delayed Type 26 frigate may be similarly deluded. Although its boosters claim it will be superior to France's FREMM frigates, thus negating the fact the French Navy has more ships than the RN, the FREMMS are already in service whilst the Type 26 won't be delivered until 2023 at the earliest. Moreover, its manufacturers have already found a bigger export market (Greece, Egypt, Morocco and possibly Canada and Australia) than any British warship in the last three decades, suggesting that such confidence may be misplaced.

Just the fact that British naval shipbuilding has not had a major export success since the Leander class frigates of the 1970s ought theoretically to have prompted both the RN and successive governments to consider the wisdom of reflexively buying British which in practice has meant buying from BAE systems.".
 

ngatimozart

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I nearly choked when reading "The British Royal Navy Road To Salvation? Part 2" in Navy magazine.

This article is written by Jonathan Foreman and I note that the Editor of the RN's Naval Review has requested Part 1 about the state of the RN be included on their website. Note the Editor strongly agrees with Part 1 of which I don't have a copy..
Link for Part 1:
The British Royal Navy – Road to Salvation? Part I
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Wow, Part 1 really gives a brutal accessment of the RN. There are more than a few paragraphs where one can substitute RCN for RN and Canada for the UK and the result would be an accurate accessment of our situation.
 

spoz

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And makes one wonder what Mr Foreman's qualifications for writing such an article are. To take an example of what might cause one to question a number of his somewhat unsupported statements, hIs discussion of the T45 is simplistic and derivative, to put it mildly - and his apparent belief in SLTs as a primary ASW weapon is interesting.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
As far as I can tell Foreman is a journalist. Much of the spin and political crap he comments on with regards to the UK's current defence status, as I previously mentioned, applies to Canada as well. I especially like is comment on "Global Combat Ship" nomenclature, I can't help but see the same mindset here with our "Canadian Surface Combatant" ship.

It will be interesting to hear from UK members on these articles.
 

Richo99

Active Member
That is actually the OPV 1400.

That means that Damen and Lurssen are offering ships in the 1400 ton class without hangers. This is despite navy plans to operate unmanned drones from these ships.
Unfortunately the pictured vessels is not even that large...I believe it's actually only an OPV 1000 (plus Sea Axe bow), which doesn't even have a telescopic hanger, and a heli deck MTOW limit of only 3t.
 
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oldsig127

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Unfortunately the pictured vessels is not even that large...I believe it's actually only an OPV 1000 (plus Sea Axe bow), which doesn't even have a telescopic hanger, and a heli deck MTOW limit of only 3t.
I think we're all in serious danger of overthinking this thing. I'm not inclined to place much weight on an artist's impression in a paid advertisement as an indication to what is contained in a commercial in confidence response to a - so far as public visibility is concerned - rather skeletal requirement.

That said - *I* would personally reject any proposal that didn't have a hangar, preferably permanent and medium helicopter capacity, but I didn't write the spec!

oldsig
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I think we're all in serious danger of overthinking this thing. I'm not inclined to place much weight on an artist's impression in a paid advertisement as an indication to what is contained in a commercial in confidence response to a - so far as public visibility is concerned - rather skeletal requirement.

That said - *I* would personally reject any proposal that didn't have a hangar, preferably permanent and medium helicopter capacity, but I didn't write the spec!

oldsig
Been thinking much the same thing, what is shown in an advertisement can be misleading, especially when the details of the RFT is not in the public domain.

The Austal/Fassmer images I've seen appear to be slightly Photoshoped versions of one of the South American OPV's, don't think I've seen a graphic of any sort from Lurssen.

And the same applies to SEA 5000, haven't seen a graphic for a modified FREMM, the Type 26 image looks to be the UK version, but with CEAFAR added.

On the other hand Navantia appears to be the only one that has not only produced what appears a fairly close representation of the F5000 in a graphic, but has also produced a model too.

As far as a hangar for the OPV, it would be a shame if the winning design doesn't have one, not that you expect a helo to be embarked very often, but I can certainly see the utility value in one for a UAV, especially larger UAV's that may enter service in the years ahead and also useful for HADR purposes.

Anyway, we all just have to be a bit more patient and wait and see what Santa might bring us for Christmas!!!
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Interesting the link is to a model of the RCN BAE offering with only 32 VLS, harpoon and Sea Ram.. We seem to be a bit spoiled with 48VLs on the Hobarts.


https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/war...-between-canadian-and-uk-type-26s-t35975.html
It is a clever design. You can see clearly from this how you can access the mission bay from the ship's hanger.

I don't know if the 32 VLS is a particular requirement for the Canadian navy ... but I believe the RN version will have 48 VLS.
 
It is a clever design, but I am unable to find definitive advice about the number of VLS offered in the RAN design. The RN is 24, the RCN is 32 (according to the model) and the RAN?

I understand the flex space is an and/or in terms of a second helo or UAV.

Strange that we haven't seen a model of the RAN offering?
 

ASSAIL

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Strange that we haven't seen a model of the RAN offering?
None too strange IMHO. I guarantee that none of the three contestants are revealing full details while the contest is hot. Generalities yes, specifics nyet.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I found it strange a model hadn't been displayed earlier in the process. Navantia had a model on display at Pacific 2015'

PACIFIC 2015: Pictures of the Contenders for the Australian Navy SEA5000 ASW Frigate Program
Have to agree with Assail, none of the contenders are showing their hands in public.

But I think Navantia is a bit of an exception to the rule, whilst we don't know the finite details of their proposal, we do know that they are clearly basing the F5000 on the AWD, which is already a 'known' entity in the Australian environment, unlike the other two contenders.

They are the only one of the three contenders to actually give some reasonable amount of detail, their offering will have a 48 Mk41 Strike Length VLS system, it will have two hangars, basically they have said, in public, that the F5000 will have around 70% commonality with the AWD, all of that was pretty obvious, so why wouldn't they actually say that in public?

But again, because the RFT is not in the public domain, I would assume that there are still things that have not been announced, maybe more to do with propulsion, or other 'internal' system changes from the AWD.

Anyway, the guessing game continues, and will no doubt continue until we have an announcement.
 
Frigate Combat System

It seems that AusGov has given pre-event notes on the announcement of the combat system for the SEA5000 frigates and possible the OPVs.

I think this means the OPVs:
Adelaide Now "Adelaide-based Saab Australia will develop missile defence systems for Australia’s future ship projects"
Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull will announce today that Adelaide-based Saab Australia will develop the “brains” of all of Australia’s future non-combat ship projects — about 25 vessels.
Added focus on missile defence for the frigates:
The combat management system for the nine frigates will be provided by Lockheed Martin’s Aegis Combat Management System, together with a Saab Australia’s tactical interface.
And the Hobarts likely to get the same CMS/ATI:
A tactical interface developed by SAAB Australia would be used on the Future Frigates and the Hobart class Air Warfare Destroyers when their Aegis system was upgraded.
No references to SM-6 or similar though, but at least the announcements are beginning. Also this from SMH "New fleet of Australian frigates to be built for missile defence in face of rogue threat " seems to suggest that the Aus Tactical Interface will be new? replaced? with one from SAAB using maybe 9LV parts?

Aegis, made by US giant Lockheed Martin, will be meshed with a system made by SAAB Australia that can work closely with the ships' Australian-made radar and specialises in tackling shorter-range threats.
 
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