Oh yes. A typo it was about 100 Billion back then. I will fix that.
I ran with the numbers comparison to illustrate the point is there are no excuses anymore for not sorting out the lack of hulls in the short to medium term.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
I ran with the numbers comparison to illustrate the point is there are no excuses anymore for not sorting out the lack of hulls in the short to medium term.
The RNZN have integrated Republic of Fiji Navy personnel into the crew of Hawea each Fijian patrol of Hawea. This provides training and experience for the RJN personnel.
NZDF trains Fijian sailors
NZDF trains Fijian sailors
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40 deg south
Well-Known Member
No disagreement with any of that. One caveat, however. NZ has very low productivity per person, well below Australia let alone the rest of the OECD. Our current economic success has resulted from putting more and more of the population into the workforce (currently above Australia and far far above USA). As we have hit the upper limit there, we have resorted to importing workers from elsewhere. Per-worker productivity remains low, and this makes the prospect of stepping up to the next level of economic performance unlikely.
Defence isn't perceived, by politicians of any party, as a popular thing to spend money on. Hence, they would rather funnel money into welfare or tax cuts. That is the primary reason NZ defence spending as a percentage of GDP is tracking at around half Australian/UK levels.
Until the population sees more benefit in defence spending, this seems unlikely to change. How this goal could be achieved is not an easy question to answer.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Major Projects Performance Reports —
Latest update of the Major Projects Report is out. This is a Treasury-run programme that attempts to keep big government projects from going off the rails, brought in after a string of high-profile failures (think Incis, the failed police computing system). Only potentially risky projects are included. The most at-risk definition is status Red
The PDF is here. Once again, the frigate upgrade is graded Red, one of only two projects to earn that dubious distinction.
Latest update of the Major Projects Report is out. This is a Treasury-run programme that attempts to keep big government projects from going off the rails, brought in after a string of high-profile failures (think Incis, the failed police computing system). Only potentially risky projects are included. The most at-risk definition is status Red
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/statese...cations/majorprojects/pdfs/int-mppr-apr17.pdf
The PDF is here. Once again, the frigate upgrade is graded Red, one of only two projects to earn that dubious distinction.
The recent OECD report blames management approaches being poor in NZ and I would tend to agree. I would also say that the HR side of things is where it is worse. There are a lot of people highly qualified - but in name only!! They have the paperwork, the qualifications but not the ability. Part of that productivity mis-match is the focus on jobs and training - some of the bloody courses on offer for youth in recent years are nonsense - and all with student loan debt. All glamour and BS most of it with very little substance or prospects but for the lucky and connected few....
Interestingly, and I do not want to go all hippie on you but - there is a connection with lifestyle choice and productivity as well and is one of those reasons why defence does not rate high as a bi-product. Kiwi's have very high notions of well being & personal and with our relative 'local' environmental peace and our physical isolation and psychological isolation with the rest of the world - the out of sight out of mind relativism.
Having followed this sentiment for years I have noted a change from about 15 - 20 years ago. I think that now the general public are relatively supportive of Defence spending than many would believe. Problem in recent history is that various GOTD were either more interested in other things like you noted and/or were scared of vocal minority / media more than doing what is right.
When we get down to brass tacks in naval terms - I am not talking about a radical and massive growth with subs, and destroyers - I am talking about one more frigate to make a minimum 3 and one or two more regular OPV's and in the future a medium sized LHD.
But in the mean time we are stuck with incrementalism - some good things are being done in Defence and the navy - but I demand that the gapping holes in the fundamentals - EEZ and Ocean taskings are given priority and finalised. Maybe that reflects back to the poor management conceptualisation in New Zealand. Not meeting benchmarks and not completing the job properly or using procrastination as a planning tool and thinking it is valid.
Won't someone please think of the children! :
NZ Navy criticised for 'crowdsourcing' badge design | Radio New Zealand News
On the other hand, if you have an amazing design and win...
You can enter you're designs here: https://www.aotearoa.mil.nz/
The PDF with all of the badges and ships is quite cool: https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...10b7cec56e4/1498767331402/Badges-Of-Honor.pdf
NZ Navy criticised for 'crowdsourcing' badge design | Radio New Zealand News
On the other hand, if you have an amazing design and win...
- Domestic travel for two people to travel to the Devonport Naval Base and a tour of the facilities including lunch in the Wardroom.
- Presentation of a life-size replica of the badge by the Base Commanding Officer.
- A sea ride for two people around the Waitemata Harbour on a RNZN ship.
- When HMNZS Aotearoa is delivered to the Navy, the entrant will be invited to join the ship for an overnight passage and stay in the VIP cabin.
You can enter you're designs here: https://www.aotearoa.mil.nz/
The PDF with all of the badges and ships is quite cool: https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...10b7cec56e4/1498767331402/Badges-Of-Honor.pdf
t68
Well-Known Member
I think it's good getting the giving the public a bit more ownership of the vessel
Excellent thoughts on this news by Euan Graham, in the Lowy Institute site.
Truly an enormous decision by RNZN brass to advise this. A big BZ to all.
Entire article well worth a look, here https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/silver-fern-lining-fitzgerald-collision
Good to see and a very positive and surprising gesture. I wasn't aware that things were at such a warm level already.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Certainly true about the dubious courses being sold to gullible teenagers and their parents. But this isn't confined to NZ - all Anglosphere countries have the same issue, and presumably many other Western countries as well. I don't doubt that the OECD pointing the finger at poor management is partly right, but still wonder why management should be worse in NZ than other peer countries? I think the small size of NZ's markets and remoteness from other countries are significant factors. This reduces competition, and makes it less likely that new more efficient operators will enter (e.g. Lidl discount supermarkets have expanded into Australia, but looked at NZ and decided it wasn't worthwhile).
We could discuss this at length, but probably out of scope for a defence site.
Certainly true. You can see this in the way many migrants are a lot more hungry for work, and keen to build a better life for their kids. You can also see it in who is coming through school at the top of the class -disproportionately migrants and children of migrants. And mostly not signing up for a degree in Surfing Studies!
I think the era of the 'benign strategic environment' is well and truly past, and even the most uninterested kiwis are starting to take not. The lack of opposition to recent defence purchases illustrates this.
I agree that expansion to this level would be prudent, and politically acceptable should a government have the will to do it. Reinstating fast jets and the fantasy fleets that crop up here from time to time are far less plausible.
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40 deg south
Well-Known Member
https://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-NZ/SCR_74473/5b9da0e3ec9bc9c3861d724672e4c4963bd66da8
Looking around the Parliament website, I came across the most recent (June 2017) report of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Select Committee. It is well worth a read.
Among other things, it has provided updated info on when the frigate upgrade in Canada will begin. The fact that negotiations are still underway this late in the process makes me very nervous.
Looking around the Parliament website, I came across the most recent (June 2017) report of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Select Committee. It is well worth a read.
Among other things, it has provided updated info on when the frigate upgrade in Canada will begin. The fact that negotiations are still underway this late in the process makes me very nervous.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The Halifax modernization program was completed on time and and on budget, one of the few bright spots for the RCN. I think NZ can be confident the same will apply to the ANZAC upgrade.
Totally agree with your sentiments in this regard. I was in lower management (production management) my self and did not like what was the prevailing notion that every thing revolved around the balance sheet with little regard to other factors such as moral and engagement of the work force. I once by default was given control of a soon to be closed production line,(7 months time) and changed it from a $580000 production deficit to a $1.3m positive variance by improving moral, making the staff feel more engaged, simplifying their jobs to make easier for them to do them well and being positive and concentrating on what was going right to give the staff a sense of achievement.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
John
I'm confident LockMart will deliver exactly what NZ pays for. It is the 'paying for' bit that I'm concerned about. Reading between the lines of that Treasury evaluation, I think NZDF are having to make some hard choices about what capability upgrades they can't afford. History would suggest some penny-pinching now will cost a small fortune to fix somewhere in the future...
The issues are at the post design and manufacturing integration level. The capability choices truck has already gone down the road as contracted and wont be reversing. It is the physical fit-out side of the upgrade has a higher cost than expected not the defined capabilities such as CAMM(M), SMART-S et al that are to be fitted.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
New Zealand, Chile sign search and rescue coordination agreement | Naval Today
The link title says it all. The map showing both the NZ and Chilean SAR zones is a bit of an eye-opener.
More generally, since the return to democracy it would be good to see improved ties between NZ and Chile.
The link title says it all. The map showing both the NZ and Chilean SAR zones is a bit of an eye-opener.
More generally, since the return to democracy it would be good to see improved ties between NZ and Chile.
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
A closer tie to Chile could include participation in the Chilean Antarctic vessel as an option as a southern ocean patrol ship. Length is good. Weight is appropriate for good seakeeping in the southern ocean. Cargo capacity would offer whole of government options to support DOC resupply missions and Antarctic research.
ASMAR has a good record of building a variety of craft including the Icelandic coast guard cutter Thor and the FASSMER OPV 80 vessels.
A series build of two vessels would reduce costs to both parties.
There are trade offs to make as it's not an OPV but the design would offer benefits.
Your thoughts all?
ASMAR has a good record of building a variety of craft including the Icelandic coast guard cutter Thor and the FASSMER OPV 80 vessels.
A series build of two vessels would reduce costs to both parties.
There are trade offs to make as it's not an OPV but the design would offer benefits.
Your thoughts all?
Australia, Norway, China, Chile, and Germany all have new Antarctic research icebreakers under construction. I think Russia, India have too, while Japans (2009) S.Korea (2009), France (2017?) are pretty new.
IMO NZ should talk to Australia about leasing its icebreaker. Its massive and could do two runs in a season.It will be able to break thicker ice so should be able to operate earlier in the season and later in the season.
Realistically NZ should think about its own icebreaker. Again money has to come from somewhere. Would most likely be cheaper than trying to build ice everything opv's and lift ships.
Cautionary note. The new AAD vessels is more than just a resupply ship. The additional size is to enable two bases to be resupplied in one voyage to mitigate the risk of issues with one voyage (as was evident when the Aurora had to go off task due to hull damage).
She is also a reserch vessel and is equipped for this. The vessel will be engaged on such operations when not resupplying the bases. The funding for this ship over its life is focused on this.
In short this is a research vessel and not a patrol ship. In fact you do not need a breaker to patrol and a decent ice class vessel will do ..... which NZ have in their new AOR. Both the Ocean Sheild and Ocean Protector are also ice class vessels. If we were to go for a more 'capable' ice class patrol vessel I suggest this will occur when these two ships are replaced as part of the continuous build programme.
News item on the IPV Hawea's deployment in Fiji. Whilst it focuses on a particular Chines boat illegally dumping rubbish overboard, it also mentions the training that is happening. Apparently the Solomon Islands are having problems with Vietnamese blue boats thieving fish from their EEZ. Concerns are that Fiji will face this threat as well.