NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

Hit and Run authors concede they got the location for a raid wrong in their book | Stuff.co.nz

These authors call for an enquiry, but when they make statements like this: In a statement sent to media on Sunday night, the authors say it's "actually impossible that the story is wrong". No matter what NZDF and the NZG reply with, said authors are going to reply lies, damned lies and any enquiry will be a waste of taxpayers money, because Hagar and Stephenson will not accept the findings if it does not agree with their version of events. They are so myopic that any illusions of impartiality on their part have long departed to the realms of the Underworld.

 

[steve33]

These authors call for an enquiry, but when they make statements like this: In a statement sent to media on Sunday night, the authors say it's "actually impossible that the story is wrong". No matter what NZDF and the NZG reply with, said authors are going to reply lies, damned lies and any enquiry will be a waste of taxpayers money, because Hagar and Stephenson will not accept the findings if it does not agree with their version of events. They are so myopic that any illusions of impartiality on their part have long departed to the realms of the Underworld.

I totally agree i have no time for them their real agenda is to trash the NZSAS that is why when they went public they started talking about honor trying to imply that somehow the NZSAS didn't act honorably and there is something wrong with the unit..

 

[ngatimozart]

I totally agree i have no time for them their real agenda is to trash the NZSAS that is why when they went public they started talking about honor trying to imply that somehow the NZSAS didn't act honorably and there is something wrong with the unit..

They have a anti US / anti defence mantra and agenda. The visit last November of the USN destroyer would have wound things up no end. They can't stomach NZ having anything to do with the US. I sometimes wonder if they are on Beijing's and / or Moscow's payroll.

 

[gf0012-aust]

well, in case I haven't made it clear enough by being too subtle - this is a stitch up

Hager has also criticised Keating for not addressing the "deaths and injuries suffered by children, mothers and elderly people who were obviously not insurgents - which are the most important allegations in the book".

Hit and Run alleges six civilians, including a three-year-old girl, were killed during the raid.

when there are raids where villagers have been killed the village chief immediately contacts local force commanders seeking reparations - its a well known and well worn practice.

so post contact, where was the village chief? he waited 6 years and went through an NZ journo?

thats just not credible as when there has been accidental death to non combatants the reparation process kicks in immediately. in the past local force commanders engage with the tribal chief to work out what the reparations are

those journos are on really thin ledges

 

[recce.k1]

well, in case I haven't made it clear enough by being too subtle - this is a stitch up



when there are raids where villagers have been killed the village chief immediately contacts local force commanders seeking reparations - its a well known and well worn practice.

so post contact, where was the village chief? he waited 6 years and went through an NZ journo?

thats just not credible as when there has been accidental death to non combatants the reparation process kicks in immediately. in the past local force commanders engage with the tribal chief to work out what the reparations are

those journos are on really thin ledges

In terms of reparations (eg village chief and local force commander engagements), what happens when such villages are in "Taliban" friendly territory?

Would village chiefs still engage with ISAF to discuss reparation (with the secret blessing of Taliban commanders)?

Asking as this incident occurred in Baghlan province which I understand was somewhat Taliban controlled (near the villages in question anyway).

 

[gf0012-aust]

In terms of reparations (eg village chief and local force commander engagements), what happens when such villages are in "Taliban" friendly territory?

Would village chiefs still engage with ISAF to discuss reparation (with the secret blessing of Taliban commanders)?

Asking as this incident occurred in Baghlan province which I understand was somewhat Taliban controlled (near the villages in question anyway).

couple of things

there are villages where the village/tribal chief has pushed back against the taliban

in tamed villages the taliban would be more than happy for reparations to be sought - as they'd take it all from the village as extra revenue

to my mind the behaviour of the villagers re the journos also is missing vital bits of behaviour which are known across ISAF. There is no demonstrable evidence of this, but there are a few times when I've wondered whether the villagers involved have taken advantage of them with only bits of the story in place and enough to convince them because they (journos) wanted it to be so

 

[Gibbo]

Military Police

On TV I noticed a MP vehicle at a road block helping civvy Police with keeping people out of storm damaged Edgecumbe township.

Got me wondering - what powers / jurisdiction do MP's have over civilian NZers?

...and who decides if they are armed?

 

[t68]

Double post

 

[t68]

On TV I noticed a MP vehicle at a road block helping civvy Police with keeping people out of storm damaged Edgecumbe township.

Got me wondering - what powers / jurisdiction do MP's have over civilian NZers?

...and who decides if they are armed?

Don't know about NZ, but here in AU there was a push for greater powers for MilPol under Project Fulcrum. Not sure if it was ever enacted it was mainly still to do with defence pers or civilians working in defence establishments, they were to be given the same powers as the AFP.

http://www.defence.gov.au/foi/docs/disclosures/313_1112-DocumentA.pdf

 

[Cadredave]

On TV I noticed a MP vehicle at a road block helping civvy Police with keeping people out of storm damaged Edgecumbe township.

Got me wondering - what powers / jurisdiction do MP's have over civilian NZers?

...and who decides if they are armed?

They have no powers at all over civilians, they are only there to assist the civilian authorities if a civi breaks thru the check point it is the NZPOL that have the authority to arrest. As for arming MP on civi street not going to happen unless the proverbial has hit the fan.

 

[gf0012-aust]

They have no powers at all over civilians, they are only there to assist the civilian authorities if a civi breaks thru the check point it is the NZPOL that have the authority to arrest. As for arming MP on civi street not going to happen unless the proverbial has hit the fan.

In aust its possible for the state govt to authorise "others" to have restrictive police powers (but working under the direction of the local police). So in a declared emergency, military and interstate police can have arrest powers etc....

do such conditions exist under NZ law?

 

[ngatimozart]

In aust its possible for the state govt to authorise "others" to have restrictive police powers (but working under the direction of the local police). So in a declared emergency, military and interstate police can have arrest powers etc....

do such conditions exist under NZ law?

When the Aussie cops were here in Christchurch after the Feb 2011 quake, they had the same powers as NZ Police. Think that came under the Quake legislation. They were really appreciated to by us and we were very happy to see them.

 

[Cadredave]

In aust its possible for the state govt to authorise "others" to have restrictive police powers (but working under the direction of the local police). So in a declared emergency, military and interstate police can have arrest powers etc....

do such conditions exist under NZ law?

We only have central Govt there is a very clear separation of authority NZDF play only a support role subservient to local civilian control. Every declared emergency or major event APEC/POTUS visit etc I have been apart of we always had a NZ Pol constable with each checkpoint or roaming vehicle patrol who had the authority to enforce the law.

Our legal briefs were always very clear we are only there to assist with the evacuation etc but had no power to detain and the bloody locals knew it as well.

CD

 

[MrConservative]

We only have central Govt there is a very clear separation of authority NZDF play only a support role subservient to local civilian control. Every declared emergency or major event APEC/POTUS visit etc I have been apart of we always had a NZ Pol constable with each checkpoint or roaming vehicle patrol who had the authority to enforce the law.

Our legal briefs were always very clear we are only there to assist with the evacuation etc but had no power to detain and the bloody locals knew it as well.

CD

Yep

Section 9 of the Defence Act 1990 and Section 10 of the Policing Act 2008.

 

[ADMk2]

In aust its possible for the state govt to authorise "others" to have restrictive police powers (but working under the direction of the local police). So in a declared emergency, military and interstate police can have arrest powers etc....

do such conditions exist under NZ law?

Yup. People in Qld can be sworn in as Special Constables. It is part of how the NCTC arrangements work, but exists for other arrangements as well (Joint Agency investigations, state border policing, surveillance and covert operations, overlapping SARMAC duties) and so on.

 

[Volkodav]

A big laugh is the number of Army Reserve MPs (and reservists in general) who or police members in civilian life. God help a transgressor who does something bad, or stupid enough to justify a cop to recall themselves to duty while on reserve service, the amount of paperwork would be phenomenal and ensure the officer concerned was already more than annoyed at the situation.

 

[t68]

A big laugh is the number of Army Reserve MPs (and reservists in general) who or police members in civilian life. God help a transgressor who does something bad, or stupid enough to justify a cop to recall themselves to duty while on reserve service, the amount of paperwork would be phenomenal and ensure the officer concerned was already more than annoyed at the situation.

Interesting thought, can they legally do that considering they are technically employed by another goverment department.

 

[ADMk2]

Interesting thought, can they legally do that considering they are technically employed by another goverment department.

Police powers don't terminate at the end of your shift...

However the more likely scenario is would be a handover to an operational crew....

 

[t68]

Police powers don't terminate at the end of your shift...

However the more likely scenario is would be a handover to an operational crew....

Yep that's right for when they are off duty or an event when the event organizer is paying the wages of extra shifts for the police. Would imagine that their would be legal implications for civillan police whilst in defence uniform to interven as they are covered by not only state law but defence act aswell, being under the jurisdiction of the defence act at the time may open a can of worms if they use powers avalible to them under state legislation. I suppose they can avail themselves to a citizen arrest procedures that may be the defining aurgument in the case.

 

[Raven22]

In aust its possible for the state govt to authorise "others" to have restrictive police powers (but working under the direction of the local police). So in a declared emergency, military and interstate police can have arrest powers etc....

Actually, State governments have no ability to give emergency police powers to defence personnel. Defence personnel providing aid to the civil power is a constitutional issue, and as per the Defence Act it requires a formal 'Call Out' with both the PM and GG signing off. Such is the difficulty it wouldn't be done outside of a significant national emergency. The normal work around is for small numbers of civilian police being attached to defence units - the defence personnel do all the busy work and then when required grab the police to do the actual arrest/detention etc.