War Against ISIS

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
from Cenciotti

"the TLAMs flew across the MEZ (Missile Engagement Zone) of the S-400 missile battery the Russians deployed to Latakia to protect the Russian air contingent deployed there in 2015."
Aren't the S400s deployed in Latakia? In which case the TLAMs may have been below the radar horizon while en route to al-Shayrat. Unless the Ruskies had SAM batteries much closer to the airfield than that it would seem pretty straightforward to fly the TLAMs through and/or under gaps in Russian (fire control) radar coverage.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Aren't the S400s deployed in Latakia? In which case the TLAMs may have been below the radar horizon while en route to al-Shayrat. Unless the Ruskies had SAM batteries much closer to the airfield than that it would seem pretty straightforward to fly the TLAMs through and/or under gaps in Russian (fire control) radar coverage.

The Tomahawks were fired from ships in the Med, off Cyprus... They had to fly a LONG way over the ocean before they even got to Syria...

Russia is now claiming they jammed 'most' of the missiles... :rolleyes:

Open source satellite BDA shows otherwise... I honestly don't get Russia sometimes. They act as if no-one else in the world has a clue and will honestly believe their rubbish.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The thing that I can't understand is why Assad would order a sarin attack. It makes no sense. He was winning.

The only people to benefit from this would be the terrorists.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The thing that I can't understand is why Assad would order a sarin attack. It makes no sense. He was winning.

The only people to benefit from this would be the terrorists.
I don't think Assad directly ordered the use of Sarin gas.Not that it matters, it was forces that are supposed to be under Assads control.

But there aren't meant to be any chemical weapons in Syria.

It's reasons like this you don't just hand over nuclear weapon activation responsibility to a grumpy warrant officer in the field.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The thing that I can't understand is why Assad would order a sarin attack. It makes no sense. He was winning.

The only people to benefit from this would be the terrorists.
We tend to look at it through western eyes used to democracy, its inherent freedoms, culture and logic that goes with that. Assad is not western, he is Syrian Arab, a dictator raised by his father who was the previous dictator. He was not the heir apparent until his older brother was killed. He has ultimate power in Syria and as far as he is concerned his word is law. This attack was not about military logic or gain. It was about the terrorising and subjugation of his population. He was sending a message: "Betray me - you die." He doesn't care about international law or politics; he sees that as beneath him in the scheme of things.
 

Rimasta

Member
The thing that I can't understand is why Assad would order a sarin attack. It makes no sense. He was winning.

The only people to benefit from this would be the terrorists.
Well it doesn't say anywhere that the world has to make sense or that the people in charge are rational and magnanimous.

However, I would say gas attacks of this nature are effective at fostering an atmosphere of fear amoung the opposition or by locals in opposition held areas. Also, it would be a good way for Assad to find out where the "red-line" is with the new American administration.

Still, it's looking more and more like the attack was carried out by Assads forces, and I doubt the NSC would recommend a strike to the President unless they felt they had some fairly solid if not classified intel that indicated the origin of the attack as being from the Syrian military.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
The Tomahawks were fired from ships in the Med, off Cyprus... They had to fly a LONG way over the ocean before they even got to Syria...

Russia is now claiming they jammed 'most' of the missiles... :rolleyes:

Open source satellite BDA shows otherwise... I honestly don't get Russia sometimes. They act as if no-one else in the world has a clue and will honestly believe their rubbish.
Yup. I just wonder what the actual effective coverage of their IADS is in that theatre against TLAMs flying nap of the earth. In the absence of a NIFC-CA type ability with an airborne asset plugging the ISR gaps at low altitude, it wouldn't surprise me if the TLAMs simply flew in unmolested by staying far enough to the south of Latakia.
 

colay1

Member
A hypothesis regarding why Assad may have used chemical weapons, since everyone is baffled at the stupidity of the strikes:

"The purpose of this past attack, apparently, was to shock and awe and demoralize the civilian population and the regime to the point where they give up. It does not have great military value, but it is literally a mass-terror weapon, designed to basically overwhelm and demoralize the opposition."
Why Did Syria Still Have Chemical Weapons?

"...such extreme tactics aimed to demonstrate the government’s impunity and to demoralize its foes."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/...bashar-al-assad-russia-sarin-attack.html?_r=0

The above seems reasonable. It may be the case that Assad grew impatient and simply made a bad judgement call.
Assad had no reason to hold back. Everything Trump had said prior to, during and after the campaign did nothing to indicate he would have reacted the way he did.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I doubt the NSC would recommend a strike to the President unless they felt they had some fairly solid if not classified intel that indicated the origin of the attack as being from the Syrian military.
I have no idea who was really responsible for the attack but I do know that ''solid classified intel'' can in the long run sometimes turn out to be not as ''solid'' as previously believed.

I don't think Assad directly ordered the use of Sarin gas.
For me; the questions that should be asked is who benefits if Assad is hit as a result of the U.S. being convinced that he ordered the chemical attack and why would Assad use chemicals in the first place knowing that there would be strong backlash?

If indeed the U.S. has hard evidence to indicate that Assad or Syria government troops were indeed responsible; evidence should be provided. What will the U.S. do if over the coming weeks evidence is presented that Assad or Syria government troops were not responsible? For that matter, what will the U.S. do if another chemical attack occurs? Trump will say that the ''red line'' [an overused cliche] has been crossed again but what will further attacks on Syria really achieve and how far is the U.S. really willing to go with regards to strained ties with Russia?


[The US Air Strikes Say More About The Vladimir Putin-Donald Trump Relationship Than The Middle East]
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...a-balance-power-bashar-al-assad-a7673166.html

[Donald Trump Feels He Had No Choice But To Launch Air Strikes On Syria - But The Balance Of Power On The Ground Has Not Changed]
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-no-choice-balance-power-bashar-a7673051.html
 

ChrisLee1971

New Member
Airstrike

how far is the U.S. really willing to go with regards to strained ties with Russia?
By this airstrike Trump killed two birds with one stone. First of all he embarrassed Russia and now Moscow has to do someting to get away from this sutuation. Secondly Trump responded to the internal criticism over his 'pro-Russian' stance.
I don't think another airstrikes will take place in a short time, because it's not Trump's turn now.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
On paper Russia still has the advantage here : it's backing the winning side. With Russian and Iranian help; Assad has made tremendous gains over the past few months. The U.S. is caught in a situation where it wants to defeat IS but at the same time doesn't want Assad to gain too many victories as by doing so the ''moderate'' rebels also lose out. If anything, I feel that the statement made last week about Assad leaving not being a priority anymore is an indicator that the U.S. has no clear, realistic policy towards Syria; as has been the case since the conflict started.

The Russians on the other hand know what they want and how to achieve it. What will really embarrass the Russians is if the U.S. starts striking targets that really damages Assad's capability to continue mounting operations; targets other than a single airfield in which an hour's warning was provided to the Russians. Despite all the rhetoric Trump has no desire for a confrontation with Russia; the same goes for Putin in that he wants to maintain the status quo.

[US Strikes In Syria: Game Changer Or Deterrent?]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HMkbGIs-gw

[The Pentagon’s Play-By-Play Of The Syria Strikes]
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/syria-chemical-attack-us-response
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
"The US has no clear realistic policy towards Syria". I agree and the reason is there really isn't one. At this point aiding rebel groups will just prolong the horror. Even if the rebels win, internal strife will follow and Assad's replacement will be no better. Look for Libya 2. Nothing short of a total military occupation of Syria has a chance of working and even this would a long and difficult process which has no support in the West. That is why an Assad win is the least offensive outcome. With a win he can go back to murdering hundreds of his own citizens instead of thousands. It's just a lose-lose situation.
 

colay1

Member
The favorable afterglow from the missile strike will soon fade and Trump will realize a political solution is needed.

Trump should make a deal with Russia and Iran. Withdraw support from Assad and force him into exile. A new Syrian leader would be an Alawite to reassure Iran that Iraq would not ally itself with Sunni Saudi Arabia. With Russian and Iranian support and Western aid, the new government would be required to stop killing civilians and institute basic reforms. This would help stem the refugee flood and even begin the repatriation of Syrians to their homeland. In return, Russia gets to keep it's naval base. The West lifts substantial Russian sanctions. Iran maintains it's influence in Syria and may be offered incentives as well.

The new government,US, Russia, Europe and Iran then cooperate to finish off ISIS. Kumbayah!:cool:
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I agree and the reason is there really isn't one.
The initial hope was that the ''moderates'' [many of whom weren't as ''moderate'' as portrayed] would eventually defeat both Assad and the non moderates groups. The victorious ''moderates'' [being selfless and reasonable democrats] would then put whatever differences they had aside in the interests of the Syrian people and Syria would become a democratic state which would be Western and Israel friendly [the only problem here is that Syria's new democratic rulers will demand the return of the Golan]. Iran and Hezbollah become isolated; Saudi and its Gulf allies score a major victory in the Sunni/Shia Cold War, Russia has less influence in a region already dominated by the West and everyone is happy - all's well that ends well.

A new Syrian leader would be an Alawite to reassure Iran that Iraq would not ally itself with Sunni Saudi Arabia.
Very slim chance of Iraq allying or aligning itself with Saudi as Iraq is led by a Shia dominated government [courtesy of Bush's invasion] and Saudi has done next to nothing to assist Iraq in defeating IS.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
only 1 malfunction, not a shabby outcome
Not to get too off topic but mention of a Tomahawk malfunctioning reminded me of something. I've just read ''Armed Action'' [James Newton]. The author was a Lynx pilot and according to him TOWs malfunctioning were not a rare occurrence; both during training and in Iraq. The reasons behind the malfunctioning or misfires was not explained. There was also one incident when a TOW misfired and a Lynx flew at low level for some distance without realising that the missile was still attached to the helicopter via its wire.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

A small portion of the New Syrian Army was surrounded and attacked by ISIS near the Jordan border. US forces had to help, allegedly crossing the border into Syria.

Ðа ÑирийÑко-иорданÑкой границе - Colonel Cassad

A list of Syrian casualties from the al-Shayrat strike.

СпиÑок потерь личного ÑоÑтава ÑирийÑкой авиабазы Шайрат в результате ракетного удара СШÐ: diana_mihailova

The French are awaiting delivery of samples from the chemical attack in Idlib.

Во Францию еще не поÑтупили образцы химичеÑкого Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¶Ð¸Ñ Ð¸Ð· Сирии Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾Ð²ÐµÐ´ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð°Ð½Ð°Ð»Ð¸Ð·Ð° - bmpd

Syrian tanks are mounting cameras on the front glacis for improved visibility.

Gur Khan attacks!: Ð’ Сирии военные Ñделали Т-72 немного похожим на "Ðрмату"

Footage from Tabka in Kurdish hands.

СирийÑÐºÐ°Ñ Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ð°Ð±Ð°Ð·Ð° Ðль-Табка занÑта курдÑкими демократичеÑкими Ñилами SDF при поддержке СШР(ВИДЕО): diana_mihailova

Another bellingcat analysis of the recent chemical attack.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/10/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-bombed/

Another Russian service member was killed in Syria, possibly two, by a mortar strike.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Â Ñèðèè ïîãèá åùå îäèí ðîññèéñêèé êîíòðàêòíèê

Some potentially offensive material claiming the White Helmets are involved in creating staged photos and videos of attacks on civilians. Reader discretion is advised.

Лучшие актеры второго плана - Colonel Cassad

A Croatian MLRS in Syria, in rebel hands. Balkan weapons continue to feature prominently in this conflict.

128-мм РСЗО RAK-12 производÑтва Хорватии у боевиков халифата в Латакии: diana_mihailova

The US is planning another round of sanctions against Syria even as the Pentagon investigates the possibility that Russia knew about the chemical attack in advance, or even participated. In the meantime Tillerson has accused Russia of failing to uphold the 2013 agreement on the destruction of Syrian chemical weapons.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÑØÀ â áëèæàéøåå âðåìÿ îáúÿâÿò î íîâûõ ñàíêöèÿõ ïðîòèâ Ñèðèè
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ïåíòàãîí ïðîâåðÿåò ïðè÷àñòíîñòü Ðîññèè ê õèìè÷åñêîé àòàêå â Ñèðèè
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Íà çàñåäàíèè ÑÁ ÎÎÍ íà ÐÔ âîçëîæèëè ÷àñòü îòâåòñòâåííîñòè çà õèìè÷åñêóþ àòàêó â Ñèðèè
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Òèëëåðñîí îáâèíèë Ðîññèþ â ñðûâå ñîãëàøåíèÿ 2013 ãîäà ïî õèìè÷åñêîìó îðóæèþ â Ñèðèè

In this photo we can see a brand new BTR-80 in Syrian service, likely one of the batch they received back in 2013 to "transport chemical weapons to the port". Along with the BTR-80s, they got a number of trucks and several field kitchens.

Gur Khan attacks!: Ð’ Сирии воины ÐÑада иÑпользуют в боÑÑ… новейшую модификацию БТР-80

Meanwhile the T-90 tank captured by the Syrian rebels continues to see action in Hama.

Ð’ Сирии трофейный танк Т-90Рпомог боевикам захватить ÐœÐ°Ð°Ñ€Ð´ÐµÑ - bmpd

An ISIS UAV with a bottle of poison gas was downed in Iraq.

Сбит БЛРхалифата Ñ Ñ…Ð¸Ð¼Ð¸Ñ‡ÐµÑким оружием на борту: diana_mihailova

It appears that M-30 howitzers and T-62M tanks of the 5th Army Corps are at work in Hama. Apparently at least 24 T-62M tanks were provided, and have been used in combat rather intensively. Russia is responsible not only for equipping but also for training this unit, and they appear to be one of Assad's more reliable formations.

Also rare footage of a BTR-82A (or AM) in Syrian service has surfaced. Up until now I wasn't sure any were actually in Syrian hands.

Бои на Ñевере ÑирийÑкой провинции Хама - Юрий ЛÑмин

[url=http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2017/04/62.html]Gur Khan attacks!: СирийÑкие танкиÑÑ‚Ñ‹ в воÑторге от Т-62Ðœ Ñ "бровÑми Брежнева"

КонтрнаÑтупление в Северной Хаме - Colonel Cassad

Apparently ISIS is manufacturing their own grenade launchers.

Самодельные гранатометы "халифата" в боÑÑ… за МоÑул - Юрий ЛÑмин

Among all the excitement, Turkey has announced Euphrates Shield is over.

Завершение операции "ЕвфратÑкий щит" - Colonel Cassad

An ISIS workshop for producing false targets for hostile airstrikes.

МаÑтерÑÐºÐ°Ñ Ñ…Ð°Ð»Ð¸Ñ„Ð°Ñ‚Ð° по изготовлению картонных танков-ложных целей найдена в Пальмире: diana_mihailova
Ð¢ÑƒÑ€Ñ†Ð¸Ñ Ð¾Ð±ÑŠÑвила об уÑпешном завершении операции "Щит Евфрата" в Сирии: diana_mihailova
 
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