NZDF General discussion thread

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If they were civilians no they didn't but if you are prepared to let Taliban use your village as part of their operations you are putting yourself in the firing line.

the problem with that is that they don't necessarily get to choose... well documented that the taliban will just use dwellings for whatever they want.

granted there are some who are sympathisers, but there are also a lot who don't have a choice

ditto for the taliban, and unfort in afghanistan, depending on location, also the local warlords.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
the problem with that is that they don't necessarily get to choose... well documented that the taliban will just use dwellings for whatever they want.

granted there are some who are sympathisers, but there are also a lot who don't have a choice

ditto for the taliban, and unfort in afghanistan, depending on location, also the local warlords.
That's exactly the point I have tried to make. appologies if my tone has sounded a bit off at points.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's exactly the point I have tried to make. appologies if my tone has sounded a bit off at points.
can't be posted here, but I've seen no shortage of reports where locals have had their dwellings used for staging posts and defensive structures pre, during and post contact - and that also assumes a knowledge of HM civilians in the area and what the source was to qualify that info for the INT package to be formed up - and then become actionable

the issue is then about whether efforts were made to ensure that contact would minimise civilian casualties

there are always going to be accidents, and no amount of planning and actionable intel will guarantee that non combatants don't get caught up and become casualties - post contact assessment will be on the prev intel, how aged it was, how it was validated etc.....

once it kicks off then people are reacting to events.

personally I think the authours thrust of suggesting that it was an act of retribution is a bit cavalier - it fails to address the fact that unless those blokes went in with clear intent to just clean out the village, then irrespective of that they were running off US INT and had no control over planning for supporting air except for knowing time slots of engagement etc....

they're clearly jumping the gun in making those claims - esp as the corroborating evidence will lie in the INT used pre contact. to infer that its paralleling My Lai (my example) is premature at best - and bordering on manipulative in intent.

in my view the lack of critical material to support the authors claims makes it a tabloid quality piece
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
can't be posted here, but I've seen no shortage of reports where locals have had their dwellings used for staging posts and defensive structures pre, during and post contact - and that also assumes a knowledge of HM civilians in the area and what the source was to qualify that info for the INT package to be formed up - and then become actionable

the issue is then about whether efforts were made to ensure that contact would minimise civilian casualties

there are always going to be accidents, and no amount of planning and actionable intel will guarantee that non combatants don't get caught up and become casualties - post contact assessment will be on the prev intel, how aged it was, how it was validated etc.....

once it kicks off then people are reacting to events.

personally I think the authours thrust of suggesting that it was an act of retribution is a bit cavalier - it fails to address the fact that unless those blokes went in with clear intent to just clean out the village, then irrespective of that they were running off US INT and had no control over planning for supporting air except for knowing time slots of engagement etc....

they're clearly jumping the gun in making those claims - esp as the corroborating evidence will lie in the INT used pre contact. to infer that its paralleling My Lai (my example) is premature at best - and bordering on manipulative in intent.

in my view the lack of critical material to support the authors claims makes it a tabloid quality piece
Totally agree with you. This appears to be a politically motivated attempt to personally enhance the authors profiles. Hind-sight mixed with dubious conclusions and innuendos is poor journalism. In any combat situation the personnel in action will be running on a high level of adrenaline and fear and mistakes can happen in the heat of the moment, if they did happen. There was obviously no deliberate attempt to wipe out the village or the village population. Any person caught up in, either purposely or accidentally in a combat situation will be in a high level of danger. I would suggest that the authors go to Afghanistan and mix it with the Taliban to report on their treatment of the people under their control.
 

Kiwigov

Member
Issue is did NZDF mislead Minsters and the public

Regardless of the motivations of the authors - and fully accepting all points about fog of war and nature of Afghan combat - the crux of the book is that the NZDF may have mislead Ministers when seeking authorisation for the raid, and has subsequently seemed to publicly mislead Parliament (and Ministers?) about the consequences of the raid.

Notable that the current government is being rather cagey about whole-heartedly supporting the NZDF in relation to this - possibly concerned about opening a can of worms, as the media is now reporting the suppression of a internal 'lessons learned' report on the CRIBs. Apparently embarrassing to a series of officers.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Regardless of the motivations of the authors - and fully accepting all points about fog of war and nature of Afghan combat - the crux of the book is that the NZDF may have mislead Ministers when seeking authorisation for the raid, and has subsequently seemed to publicly mislead Parliament (and Ministers?) about the consequences of the raid.
contempt of the parlt is a separate issue to the operation thats being discussed

sure its unseemly and untidy, but NZDF have no control over what NZG Ministers say and do.

same as in australia - "children overboard" is a good example. ADF and RAN kept everyone informed and subsequently sought to correct claims made by DefMin, but the suits feeding the Minister failed to confirm and extrapolated so as to generate political leverage.

2 separate issues (if not more) at work here
 
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Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Regardless of the motivations of the authors - and fully accepting all points about fog of war and nature of Afghan combat - the crux of the book is that the NZDF may have mislead Ministers when seeking authorisation for the raid, and has subsequently seemed to publicly mislead Parliament (and Ministers?) about the consequences of the raid.
AS CDF released yesterday the main points of the book ie location of the raids; NZSAS have never operated in those locations which puts the credibility of information by the author in doubt, again digging for dirt 6 years after the fact to me shows the real motivations of both co-authors.

Notable that the current government is being rather cagey about whole-heartedly supporting the NZDF in relation to this - possibly concerned about opening a can of worms, as the media is now reporting the suppression of a internal 'lessons learned' report on the CRIBs. Apparently embarrassing to a series of officers.
Internal lessons learnt from CRIB have got absolutely nothing to do with the raid in question two very different deployments not embarrassing at all just daily frustrations being aired at a post wash deployment interviews.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Just saw on stuff it was stated that when the NZSAS forces went in on the raid they alerted people to their arrival by loudspeaker for the benefit of any civilians which certainly doesn't fit with Hagers narrative of our guys going out on a a revenge attack.

Recap: Defence Force hits back at Hit and Run claims | Stuff.co.nz
Doesn't fit in with the element of surprise either?

Links to the above mentioned report via NZ herald

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825410

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825018
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
the more I hear about it the less convinced I am about the authors credibility

all of the 5I's SF don't do anything without legals - no shortage of missions where they get called off due to eroded confidence and elevated risk issues

the book has already failed the "beyond reasonable doubt" test a few times, they're going to have to come up with a higher success rate on details to maintain momentum

edit

just read the 10 point report. there's a whole lot of questionable things and statements being made.

NZDF has embeds in Aust and the force structure etc is pretty close to being a mirror image.

I'm still wondering why a report on the success of the PRT is being used to contribute to the debate about NZ SAS. There is no comparative relationship between how SF do business and how PRT's work.
 

steve33

Member
No it doesn't equate to having the element of surprise does it and that was pointed out in the article which i provided the link to you should read it.

Taking care to warn the civilians certainly doesn't fit in with our guys going on a savage revenge attack either.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That PRT analysis commentary provided by NZHerald is pretty ordinary - I don't think that they had ex NZDF people combing over it.....

the headline in NZHerald calling it "10 stinging criticisms" by the J8 shop is really gilding the lilly

some of the issues have been common to all partners in ISAF
 

steve33

Member
That PRT analysis commentary provided by NZHerald is pretty ordinary - I don't think that they had ex NZDF people combing over it.....

the headline in NZHerald calling it "10 stinging criticisms" by the J8 shop is really gilding the lilly

some of the issues have been common to all partners in ISAF
I agree shortages of equipment or wear and tear of equipment are always an issue you hear about from so many nations as they say you never have enough people you never have enough equipment armies would always like to go in with more but they go in with what they have.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I agree shortages of equipment or wear and tear of equipment are always an issue you hear about from so many nations as they say you never have enough people you never have enough equipment armies would always like to go in with more but they go in with what they have.
When ET was on, Oz soldiers were going to the local woollies in Townsville to get supplies and kit

the ADF went through the same issues on boots as well

none of that PRT report is a headline act - you'd see similar problems in other militaries in recent years

the chief isn't hiding anything, it's not unusual for someone in the shops to have a different perspective from those who've been on the job. eg people in the J8 shop might not ever been on ops - so they're analysing from an academic "war college" perspective.

more to the point, that PRT report has got zero to do with SAS or the contact that's in dispute

if it was SAS relevant then you'd be talking to the S8, S6, S2 - and they sure as heck aren't going to be talking out of shop to a journo
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
David Fisher, Nikki Hagar, John Stephenson, Deborah Manning, Gordon Campbell and all the usual suspects climbing on in - all singing from the same song sheet - all rehearsed in the weeks ahead of the book release. What next OpEd's by Kim DotCom, Snowden and Assange? Because they all drink the same KoolAid.

This is just another election year stunt / hit job by Hagar. This time they're out to have a crack at the NZDF & NZSAS and no doubt they will write op-eds drawing a very longbow on our connections with those nasty Americans and the bidding of our own alphabet soup community in all of this - which has always been their ultimate target.

As the credibility of the Hagar 'war crimes' charge is evaporating (and for such a crime you need a Mens Rea of intent and not just the Actus Reus event within ACHL war crime cases - not unlike any usual homicide investigation - but Hagar would not care - the political damage he is attempting to do is what this is all about) Fisher as instructed by his dear leader Hagar is chiming in with this PRT stuff to keep it alive in the news cycle and murk the waters on all this.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
yep, it's woeful journalism.

its not hard to pull apart the newspaper analysis of the PRT lessons learnt.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
This is just another election year stunt / hit job by Hagar. This time they're out to have a crack at the NZDF & NZSAS and no doubt they will write op-eds drawing a very longbow on our connections with those nasty Americans and the bidding of our own alphabet soup community in all of this - which has always been their ultimate target.
Absolutely, Hager of course played a prominent role in the 1980's nuclear ships debacle, culminating in his aim being achieved that of the cutting of US/NZ military ties (ANZUS). Then having built-up "cred" with the media he became one of their prominent "go-to" guys for commentary advocating against the ANZAC Frigate project, the P-3 Orions and the F-16 deal etc. When he "exposed" NZ's involvement in the Echelon project rallied against NZ's 5 Eyes intelligence gathering for the US (and other general domestic political "machinations") he became more than a media "go-to" person he became a media "expert" person on defence and foreign affairs etc. His word became gospel to the media. Whatever he said was "true" in their eyes.

He would be aghast at the recent restoration of US/NZ military ties and the last chapter of his latest book advocates for the neutering of the NZSAS and the severing of its linkages with the US (which would degrade them enough to make them less then useful to put it politely).

Because his ilk are also never supportive of NZ playing the good international citizen by helping wider efforts to bring peace to stability to nations and their people by the use of force I question whether they really do care greatly about any alleged innocents killed in Afghanistan and instead tell their stories in order to sway media and public opinion against NZ involvement in "other people's wars" and especially ties with the likes of the US and its mighty military apparatus.

However it looks like Hager's credibility has taken a hammering by the CDF calmly and concisely laying out a number of facts raising doubts against Hager's allegations. I noticed the tone of those media reporters at the CDF briefing today were more open minded now that they became better informed. And judging by the way Hager had became heated and came close to losing his rag when questioned by the media today in a number of interview occasions it felt like karma was finally catching up with him after all these years. :D

Media report after the CDF's briefing today: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...fghan-raid--but-still-says-authors-book-wrong and http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/p...ivilians-may-have-been-killed-in-nz-lead-raid

CDF's briefing "live": http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/90892328/live-defence-force-hits-back-at-hit-and-run-claims and http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/327574/hit-and-run-authors-dispute-nzdf-account
 
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