F-35 Program - General Discussion

[gf0012-aust]

On the topic of A-10's vs F-35's the argument always seems to be one or the other... What I'm curious about is how well could they work togethor?

A modern version of an A-10 type aircraft with Link 16 working with an F-35 would be one hell of a team.

thats true to an extent

ie under what circumstances does the A-10 have a clear advantage - ie in non contested areas where the battlespace is already owned by blue team, where there is no threat of GBAD and manpads.

its easier to run the argument that if the F35 is there then it can do the job anyway. and depending on its mission load out it can deliver precision weapons to danger close levels. ditto a shornet, f16, f15 etc.....

on the other hand, an A-10 link 16'd can be fed and protected by CAP but is it in real terms a redundant asset and an inefficient use of a fighting pair etc.....

eg the road to bagdhad in the gulf war would have been just as devastated by an F35 (if they had existed) as it would have been by an A-10

again, I'm not dismissing the A-10, but if it can only work in non contested space - then the opportunities are going to be short and narrow. If it needs escorting in, then it raises the question that the AWACs, strike packages, sweepers and probably SF have not done their job to a satisfactory level where follow up forces are assured that they already basically dominate the ground.

A-10 pilots are suffering from a similar disease that afflicted RAAF F-111's. A strong emotional attachment is not enough to warrant keeping them flying. Its not as if they are irreplaceable and there is nothing else that can do the job. ie something else has been doing their job for the last 17 years in the middle east, afghanistan etc... and there will be a growing push to make UAS the primary vehicle to loiter with intent. they can stay up longer, they can get precision weapons on target just as well as a manned platform, and they don't expose flyers to risk.....

the reality is that B2's, B52's, Predators and manned fastjets have been doing CAS and have not been lost conducting their missions. an A-10 doesn't have the same precision, projection or persistence of any of the above.

 

[ADMk2]

the bigger problem that is triggered by the hand wringing over the demise of the A10 is the disease of gunnitis.

there's a tendency to be wedded to the A-10 due to the sheer frightening power of a gatling firing UD rounds.

gunnitis has taken hold over the practical analysis of CAS being a capability response from all eared up platforms as opposed to a platform response (ipso facto, gunnitis)

Buy more AC-130U/J/W then...

They both require low threat levels in which to operate safely, but even the mighty GAU-8 pales in comparison to the effects of a 105mm artillery round...

 

[AegisFC]

the bigger problem that is triggered by the hand wringing over the demise of the A10 is the disease of gunnitis.

The fervor over the A-10 is cult-like and it is a victim of its own media attention. Reporters love talking about the ugly plane the USAF doesn't want with the big wicked gun.

 

[ASSAIL]

The fervor over the A-10 is cult-like and it is a victim of its own media attention. Reporters love talking about the ugly plane the USAF doesn't want with the big wicked gun.

It's a disease encountered in other fora as well, more power, bigger guns. It occurs across the spectrum and air land and sea and immbeginning to believe that the proponents take this very personal as they probably equate their guns to male parts of their anatomy.

 

[the road runner]

A little interview on the JSF project update..

F-35A down to 90 million range..

Several lots away and we may see F-35 for 80 million approx ,,,and past that 70 million approx for F-35 A ,,,i wonder if they will ever reach the price point of mid 70 million a plane ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kXiAG1Ylv4

 

[Boagrius]

The F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter jet has successfully conducted its first firing trials of the MBDA Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM), the European missile manufacturer announced today March 15, 2017.

F-35 successfully test fires MBDA's ASRAAM missile for the first time

Would be interesting to know just how much of an effect slinging a pair of SRMs like this on the outer pylons has on the RCS of the Lightning.

The ability to carry a highly capable HOBS missile and cue it to hit nigh on anything EODAS can see (360 degree IR bubble around the jet + LOAL) would make for one potent WVR machine.

The longer legged ASRAAM also strikes me as a good fit for the kind of sneak attacks the F35 is capable of. Nice to have a passively guided weapon in the toolkit that can still be fired from a reasonable distance.

Might be a moot point with internally compatible SACM/MSDM and CAMM in the pipeline mind you...

 

[rossfrb_1]

snip

The ability to carry a highly capable HOBS missile and cue it to hit nigh on anything EODAS can see (360 degree IR bubble around the jet + LOAL) would make for one potent WVR machine.

The longer legged ASRAAM also strikes me as a good fit for the kind of sneak attacks the F35 is capable of. Nice to have a passively guided weapon in the toolkit that can still be fired from a reasonable distance.

Might be a moot point with internally compatible SACM/MSDM and CAMM in the pipeline mind you...

My understanding is that the ASRAAM LOAL feature was developed by RAAF for its Hornets - has this been adopted by other ASRAAM users?
If so was it their own tech or ours?

rb

 

[ADMk2]

F-35 successfully test fires MBDA's ASRAAM missile for the first time

Would be interesting to know just how much of an effect slinging a pair of SRMs like this on the outer pylons has on the RCS of the Lightning.

The ability to carry a highly capable HOBS missile and cue it to hit nigh on anything EODAS can see (360 degree IR bubble around the jet + LOAL) would make for one potent WVR machine.

The longer legged ASRAAM also strikes me as a good fit for the kind of sneak attacks the F35 is capable of. Nice to have a passively guided weapon in the toolkit that can still be fired from a reasonable distance.

Might be a moot point with internally compatible SACM/MSDM and CAMM in the pipeline mind you...

Anecdotally I have heard the RAAF prefer the AIM-9X Block II and will be consolidating on this weapon, when F/A-18A/B retire from service.

 

[Boagrius]

Anecdotally I have heard the RAAF prefer the AIM-9X Block II and will be consolidating on this weapon, when F/A-18A/B retire from service.

That's interesting. I would have expected the opposite given the range advantage I would assume the ASRAAM to have. A BVR/near-BVR heater with an FPA seeker just strikes me as a really handy adjunct to the slammer. Then again what do I know - AIM120C/D may well be more than sufficient for everything up to and including the pre-merge in the overwhelming majority of cases.

 

[Air Force Brat]

I note the clown club ran the line "jack of all trades, master of none" to the last hearing

pity they didn't provide the attribution as it came from an ex A-10 pilot
they could have then discovered that a lot of the JSF pilots at Red Flag are ex A-10 drivers - and they were the same pilots who were saying how they'd never been able to wipe the air and ground threats so comprehensively - not the F-22 sweeping ahead, but JSF cleaning house on their own

Amen to every word of that, and the F-35A at Red Flag 17-1 has removed all doubt from any thinking mans world view. I am more impressed with this airplane all the time, and very proud of USAF and the USMC pilots as they have embraced this aircraft, and its very unique capabilities to the fullest. With 10 F-35Bs in Japan deployed on the Wasp, these are very exciting times indeed.

and I'm going to guess, 001 and 002 were a real hit at Avalon, the F-35 made its debut at Oshkosh, Wisconsin last summer during the annual EAA fly-in. My brother and his family were quite impressed.

 

[ADMk2]

That's interesting. I would have expected the opposite given the range advantage I would assume the ASRAAM to have. A BVR/near-BVR heater with an FPA seeker just strikes me as a really handy adjunct to the slammer. Then again what do I know - AIM120C/D may well be more than sufficient for everything up to and including the pre-merge in the overwhelming majority of cases.

The -D model AMRAAM has been specifically enhanced for HOBS shots for just that reason...

 

[colay1]

That's interesting. I would have expected the opposite given the range advantage I would assume the ASRAAM to have. A BVR/near-BVR heater with an FPA seeker just strikes me as a really handy adjunct to the slammer. Then again what do I know - AIM120C/D may well be more than sufficient for everything up to and including the pre-merge in the overwhelming majority of cases.

ASRAAM doesn't have a data link capability, AIM-9X Blk 2 does. Nice to have if you will engage in network-centric warfare.

 

[Boagrius]

ASRAAM doesn't have a data link capability, AIM-9X Blk 2 does. Nice to have if you will engage in network-centric warfare.

Ah that would explain it. Odd, I thought ASRAAM did have a datalink. If not, how does it achieve LOAL functionality? Just inertial navigation until terminal phase?

The -D model AMRAAM has been specifically enhanced for HOBS shots for just that reason...

Makes sense. Never been able to decipher what this actually means though. I know HOBS was a big focus for the Delta model, but there don't seem to be any details in the public domain on what actual changes this entailed?

That said, I would have thought it still makes sense to also have an IR guided spear to throw to some distance too. Especially given the investment the "other" guys seem to have put into jamming/attacking/otherwise interfering with the RF part of the EM spectrum.

 

[colay1]

Ah that would explain it. Odd, I thought ASRAAM did have a datalink. If not, how does it achieve LOAL functionality? Just inertial navigation until terminal phase?

For that RAAF over-the-shoulder shot IIRC a second Hornet fed the target coordinates to the launch A/C which downloaded the data to the ASRAAM prior to launch.

 

[Boagrius]

For that RAAF over-the-shoulder shot IIRC a second Hornet fed the target coordinates to the launch A/C which downloaded the data to the ASRAAM prior to launch.

Got it. So whatever targeting data you want the weapon to have has to be sent prior to it physically leaving the rail, while 9X Blk II can be updated mid-flight. I suppose that could actually offset the range disparity somewhat (functionally speaking).

 

[r3mu511]

Would be interesting to know just how much of an effect slinging a pair of SRMs like this on the outer pylons has on the RCS of the Lightning.

(tl;dr version)

considering just the specular contribution of the four trailing edges of the missile fins gives an rcs contribution of 0.114591552 sq-m rcs, this is compared to the claimed "clean" rcs of the F-35 said to be on the order of 0.001 sq-m (ie. -30 dBsm)... hence the exposed missile fins are contributing an rcs which is around 100x greater than that of the F-35 itself

(long version)

looking at it from the theoretical aspect based on electromagnetic diffraction, and considering just the specular contribution of the vertical trailing edge of a single fin of the missile, per equations 7-49 and 7.54 in "Introduction to the Uniform Geometrical Theory of Diffraction" (McNamara), a metal trailing edge aligned orthogonally to the direction of propagation of the incident EM wave has a theoretical rcs on the order of it's length squared divided by pi

given the the diameter of the body of the missile is 0.166 m per MBDA catalog specs, we might approximate the missile fin's trailing edge as being around 0.15 m long, which would mean an rcs contribution from that fin's trailing edge of around 0.007161972 sq-m

now as all four fins are equidistant from an EM wave propagating along a path parallel to the missile body long axis, the individual rcs contributions of each fin will be in phase and thus result in constructive interference, per section 14.3 by Shaeffer in "Radar Cross Section" (Knott) the maximum coherent sum (ie. in-phase) of the phasor summation of individual EM scatterers is the square of the sum of the square-roots of each individual rcs, so for four fin trailing edges each of which contributes 0.007161972 sq-m rcs, the coherent sum would be on the order of 0.114591552 sq-m rcs

considering that the F-35 has a USAF claimed "clean" rcs on the order of 0.001 sq-m (ie. -30 dBsm, see: www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20051125.aspx, Radar Cross Section (RCS)), the exposed missile fins of the single missile contributes an rcs which is around 100x greater than that of the F-35 itself

the combined rcs of the F-35 and the exposed missile fins would be, at maximum (ie. coherent phasor summation), on the order of 0.137001041 sq-m, and this is for a single exposed missile and considering only the specular contribution of the trailing edges of the missile fins (ie. the electronics/mechanics of the seeker behind the IR transparent dome on the missile head was not considered for it's effectes to EM diffraction, any surface wave contributions of the missile body itself as an EM wave travels along the body's length and reflects off of any surface discontinuity to propagate back towards the front of the missile body, etc.)

 

[Boagrius]

(tl;dr version)

considering just the specular contribution of the four trailing edges of the missile fins gives an rcs contribution of 0.114591552 sq-m rcs, this is compared to the claimed "clean" rcs of the F-35 said to be on the order of 0.001 sq-m (ie. -30 dBsm)... hence the exposed missile fins are contributing an rcs which is around 100x greater than that of the F-35 itself

(long version)

looking at it from the theoretical aspect based on electromagnetic diffraction, and considering just the specular contribution of the vertical trailing edge of a single fin of the missile, per equations 7-49 and 7.54 in "Introduction to the Uniform Geometrical Theory of Diffraction" (McNamara), a metal trailing edge aligned orthogonally to the direction of propagation of the incident EM wave has a theoretical rcs on the order of it's length squared divided by pi

given the the diameter of the body of the missile is 0.166 m per MBDA catalog specs, we might approximate the missile fin's trailing edge as being around 0.15 m long, which would mean an rcs contribution from that fin's trailing edge of around 0.007161972 sq-m

now as all four fins are equidistant from an EM wave propagating along a path parallel to the missile body long axis, the individual rcs contributions of each fin will be in phase and thus result in constructive interference, per section 14.3 by Shaeffer in "Radar Cross Section" (Knott) the maximum coherent sum (ie. in-phase) of the phasor summation of individual EM scatterers is the square of the sum of the square-roots of each individual rcs, so for four fin trailing edges each of which contributes 0.007161972 sq-m rcs, the coherent sum would be on the order of 0.114591552 sq-m rcs

considering that the F-35 has a USAF claimed "clean" rcs on the order of 0.001 sq-m (ie. -30 dBsm, see: www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20051125.aspx, Radar Cross Section (RCS)), the exposed missile fins of the single missile contributes an rcs which is around 100x greater than that of the F-35 itself

the combined rcs of the F-35 and the exposed missile fins would be, at maximum (ie. coherent phasor summation), on the order of 0.137001041 sq-m, and this is for a single exposed missile and considering only the specular contribution of the trailing edges of the missile fins (ie. the electronics/mechanics of the seeker behind the IR transparent dome on the missile head was not considered for it's effectes to EM diffraction, any surface wave contributions of the missile body itself as an EM wave travels along the body's length and reflects off of any surface discontinuity to propagate back towards the front of the missile body, etc.)

Very interesting, thanks. I imagine internal carriage is very much desirable wherever possible. Will be interesting to see what becomes of SACM and CAMM - can't wait to see the naysayers squirm once the jet has the ability to shoot in any direction (WVR) with a clean config.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Very interesting, thanks. I imagine internal carriage is very much desirable wherever possible. Will be interesting to see what becomes of SACM and CAMM - can't wait to see the naysayers squirm once the jet has the ability to shoot in any direction (WVR) with a clean config.

I've covered off in the LO/VLO threads in the past how a broken conformal structure just blows out the RCS

in fact its been covered again recently in an article about F-22 maint of the LO material. unfort I didn't copy it to DT as I thought it was pretty well common knowledge for all us who have been speaking about JSF, F117, F-22, their unmanned brethren in the past

one of the reasons why F-35 has an impregnated RCS process is due to the lessons of the F117 and F-22

"bandits over bagdhad" gives some practical examples of how compromised RCS changed the detection returns

 

[Boagrius]

I've covered off in the LO/VLO threads in the past how a broken conformal structure just blows out the RCS

in fact its been covered again recently in an article about F-22 maint of the LO material. unfort I didn't copy it to DT as I thought it was pretty well common knowledge for all us who have been speaking about JSF, F117, F-22, their unmanned brethren in the past

one of the reasons why F-35 has an impregnated RCS process is due to the lessons of the F117 and F-22

"bandits over bagdhad" gives some practical examples of how compromised RCS changed the detection returns

Thanks gf - sounds like some good reading to check out. As a civvie I can only imagine how complex this must all get behind the scenes. Once you start figuring in how all of this then goes on to affect the EW fight and the broader ISR picture in general it just reinforces how important it is to listen to those in the know.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Thanks gf - sounds like some good reading to check out. As a civvie I can only imagine how complex this must all get behind the scenes. Once you start figuring in how all of this then goes on to affect the EW fight and the broader ISR picture in general it just reinforces how important it is to listen to those in the know.

as an example, a slightly proud rivet on an F-117 made it immediately detectable

the F-22 maintainers are obsessed with checking the surface after a plane returns

JSF uses a different RCS application of sig mgt material concept, so is inherently easier to maintain