Illegal fishing in Indonesia's EEZ backed up by Chinese coastguard ships, diplomatic protests, threatening rhetoric & even the use of force when Indonesia arrests illegally fishing Chinese boats . . . not bullying?Could you provide some link on china bully Indonesia? as far as I know China export a lot military hardware to Indonesia and has significant economy tie to it. If it really bully them due to their neutrality, I would think they at least has few obvious bully incident. i don't know ive haven't found these source on regular news outlet such as CNN etc. I don't consider the illegal fishing in EEZ as bully since both Vietnam/phillippine/mala did the same thing before.
when you mention Indonesia been assertive in what way??
The action of China Coast Guard in Natuna's water and EEZ around Natuna Islands is really taken this administration by surprise. Like I posted before, this administration when coming to office did made some business policies that favouring Chinese Business and Investment which even side line Indonesia main business partner for decades Japan. Thus the behaviour of China in SCS really not in line with China business and commercial goal in Indonesia.Could you provide some link on china bully Indonesia? as far as I know China export a lot military hardware to Indonesia and has significant economy tie to it. If it really bully them due to their neutrality, I would think they at least has few obvious bully incident. i don't know ive haven't found these source on regular news outlet such as CNN etc. I don't consider the illegal fishing in EEZ as bully since both Vietnam/phillippine/mala did the same thing before.
when you mention Indonesia been assertive in what way??
Swerve, what is your opinion? What is the purpose of Chinese actions there?Illegal fishing in Indonesia's EEZ backed up by Chinese coastguard ships, diplomatic protests, threatening rhetoric & even the use of force when Indonesia arrests illegally fishing Chinese boats . . . not bullying?
In March 2013 the crew of a Chinese fishing boat was arrested well inside Indonesia's EEZ by the Indonesian patrol boat Hiu Macan 001. CCG3210 (a very much larger vessel) turned up & demanded the return of the Chinese fishermen. With the Chinese vessel blocking their way (it's faster as well as much bigger & more heavily armed) & jamming their communications, the Indonesians complied.
Three years later, in March this year, a Chinese fishing boat was arrested just 5 km from the Natuna islands. Now, these aren't disputed reefs or rocks or islets, they're internationally recognised (including by China) Indonesian territory, inhabited by 70000 people. While the Indonesians were towing it to port, two Chinese coastguard vessels, one of them apparently CCG3210 again, turned up, forcibly broke the tow, & took the Chinese vessel under tow themselves. That was an act of piracy, inside Indonesian territorial waters that even China publicly accepts belong to Indonesia.
What would you call that except bullying? China says that those Indonesian territorial waters are "traditional Chinese fishing grounds", as if that justifies blatant illegality by armed agents of the Chinese state. It's sheer thuggery, a statement that as far as China is concerned the only law is the law of greater strength.
I have seen same behavior from Vietnam/Malasia in Indonesia water, so whats difference? as for coast guard ship and other ships, they can pretty much says its FON. Im sure Vietnam did the same before too, saw some news way back. This is different than China taken over scarborough shoal and blockade phillippine fisherman enter the area. Furthermore, Indonesia is one who constantly sink fishing trawler whether its Chinese/vietnamess/mala/etc. If china start using coast guard ship blocking Indonesia fishing trawler in their own EEZ, that will be bullying. Regular tag of fishing trawler in ScS between each nation is fairly norm these days.Illegal fishing in Indonesia's EEZ backed up by Chinese coastguard ships, diplomatic protests, threatening rhetoric & even the use of force when Indonesia arrests illegally fishing Chinese boats . . . not bullying?
In March 2013 the crew of a Chinese fishing boat was arrested well inside Indonesia's EEZ by the Indonesian patrol boat Hiu Macan 001. CCG3210 (a very much larger vessel) turned up & demanded the return of the Chinese fishermen. With the Chinese vessel blocking their way (it's faster as well as much bigger & more heavily armed) & jamming their communications, the Indonesians complied.
Three years later, in March this year, a Chinese fishing boat was arrested just 5 km from the Natuna islands. Now, these aren't disputed reefs or rocks or islets, they're internationally recognised (including by China) Indonesian territory, inhabited by 70000 people. While the Indonesians were towing it to port, two Chinese coastguard vessels, one of them apparently CCG3210 again, turned up, forcibly broke the tow, & took the Chinese vessel under tow themselves. That was an act of piracy, inside Indonesian territorial waters that even China publicly accepts belong to Indonesia.
What would you call that except bullying? China says that those Indonesian territorial waters are "traditional Chinese fishing grounds", as if that justifies blatant illegality by armed agents of the Chinese state. It's sheer thuggery, a statement that as far as China is concerned the only law is the law of greater strength.
The thing is Vietnam just had its top official visit China a month or two ago. They know they have to work with China to solve the issue, US certainly not going to back up Vietnam if a shooting war started between them except sell them some weapons. ASEAN as well as some other country don't want to get too closed to either side, consider China is the largest import/emporter. China will assert itself to a point but not hard enough to push those countries into US. Simply, US still has enough influence in the region for China to think twice before pushing these nations too far, but what about 25yrs from now, as time goes on China carrot and stick will just get bigger.Arms sales as you know, are an extension of ones foreign policy. Nobody implied that tensions between China and Indonesia are high. Even if relations got a bit tense, China would probably still sell military gear to Indonesia!
Have you seen news on China encouraging its trawlers to operate in Malaysian/Vietnamese/Filipino waters? I haven't. Also, as has been pointed out before : the majority of foreign trawlers caught operating illegally in Indonesian waters were not operating in disputed waters or in areas close to the ''nine dash line''.
Which it's doing. Increased Chinese actions which others view as aggressive will only drive countries further into the arms of the U.S. Look at how things are changing between Vietnam and the U.S.; to the extent that Vietnam is now allowed to buy ''lethal'' gear from the U.S.
How many nations sink trawler that they seized? obviously is not the norm. As for coast guard attacking? I only seen coast guard passing through, not attacking. the news you refer too where Chinese coast guard passing within 12nm of Indonesia or its EEZ? if its the former then I have to agrees its aggressive, but if its latter its just FON. Ill see if I can find these incident you refer too.When have Malaysian & Vietnamese coastguard or navy ships attacked Indonesian coastguard boats in Indonesian territorial waters? I've never heard of it.
These aren't disputed waters, or around reefs or shoals in the Spratleys, this is Indonesia proper, & a few km from the coast. It's like an Indonesian ship interfering with a Chinese coastguard boat within sight of Hainan. This is definitely not the usual playing tag in the SCS.
If Indonesia sinks trawlers which are illegally fishing in Indonesian waters, so what? They're entitled to do that. It's legal under Indonesian & international law. Well, as long as they take the crews off first, which they do. What China does is totally illegal under Chinese law - & everyone elses.
That's exactly what China is doing : forcing various countries to strengthen defence ties with Uncle Sam! As for Vietnam, granted, recent events in the Spratlys may have provide them with an impetus to develop defence ties with Uncle Sam but even if Vietnam wasn't worried about China; ties would still improve, over time, with the U.S.China will assert itself to a point but not hard enough to push those countries into US.
Other ASEAN claimants are already dealing with China in various ways : maintaining good ties, including doing their best not to provoke or offend China; whilst also strengthening ties with other countries. Dutarte might learn the hard way - as others have - that despite attempts to be chummy with China, China will remain uncompromising with regards to the Spratlys.Either way this will certainly give other ASEAN to think about.
Seized fishing boats are usually either sold or destroyed. Indonesia isn't doing anything exceptional by destroying them. It used to sell them, but IIRC they found the price they got was very low & the same boats were turning up illegally fishing again.How many nations sink trawler that they seized? obviously is not the norm. As for coast guard attacking? I only seen coast guard passing through, not attacking. the news you refer too where Chinese coast guard passing within 12nm of Indonesia or its EEZ? if its the former then I have to agrees its aggressive, but if its latter its just FON. Ill see if I can find these incident you refer too.
It's not unusual to chase down illeagal fishing AusGov did it in 2003, but the tactics of china is getting fairly aggressive to say the least. So of the shanagians coming to light in this thread is a real eye opener.Chinese fisherman sinking a S Korean coast guard ship that was pursuing them for fishing illegally in the SK EEZ. The PRC seem to be pushing out against all their maritime neighbours.
Spat with China Over Illegal Fishing Deepens - The Chosun Ilbo (English Edition): Daily News from Korea - National/Politics > Politics
The fishing boat was near the island, but so far I haven't found any detail indicate its in territorial or EEZ. Also the incident indicate the Chinese coast Guard ram its own fishing boat presumably free from Indonesia ship. Sure China is wrong in this, but it didn't escalated by raming Indonesia Ship.Seized fishing boats are usually either sold or destroyed. Indonesia isn't doing anything exceptional by destroying them. It used to sell them, but IIRC they found the price they got was very low & the same boats were turning up illegally fishing again.
I clearly stated that the March 2016 incident was in Indonesian territorial waters.
Boxing in a coastguard patrol boat going about its lawful business, jamming its communications & demanding that it hand over people rightly arrested for illegal acts is aggression wherever it takes place.
I doubt the incident directly involve the CCP, more likely its a rogue trawler right In that case its just an individual act rather state sponsored. There are a lot Chinese fishing men went out further to catch fish, and some do so illegally.It's not unusual to chase down illeagal fishing AusGov did it in 2003, but the tactics of china is getting fairly aggressive to say the least. So of the shanagians coming to light in this thread is a real eye opener.
Rogue fishing boat captured after 20-day chase - theage.com.au
1st, the incident between Chinese CG whether is in Indonesian water or in Indonesian EEZ basically is not in the water any Chinese CG can legally operate..unless Chinese CG is in intention to provoke Indonesian Authority Vessel (whether it's CG or Navy),The fishing boat was near the island, but so far I haven't found any detail indicate its in territorial or EEZ. Also the incident indicate the Chinese coast Guard ram its own fishing boat presumably free from Indonesia ship. Sure China is wrong in this, but it didn't escalated by raming Indonesia Ship.
On the other side, I consider Indonesia much more aggressive compare to Vietnam/japan or other nation dealing with illegal fishing. For starter I haven't seen news on Vietnam/china/japan sinking as many as 100 trawlers. 2nd, Indonesia use NAVY ships to pursue and sometime fire upon trawler, sometime has deadly consequence. I haven't seen other nations, china/vietnam/japan use navy ship to handle this kind of situation.
Those nations you mentioned will have nothing to gain from doing this. Also, what makes you think that challenging China will make China think twice about doing what it's currently doing? If a certain country were to add the number of ships it has in the area to confront Chinese intrusions, the Chinese could reciprocate by sending even more ships. Note that nearly all of the Chinese ships in the disputed area are not military ships [mostly ships from the China Maritime Surveillance] but if others were to up the ante; China could respond by sending more ships and next time around they could be PLAN ships. If China is willing to tangle with the likes of the U.S, South Korea and Japan do you think any doubling of ships in the area or a more assertive [perceived by Chinese to be 'provocative'] policy by say Malaysia or Taiwan would really deter China?Well who can really sure that 5 years frm now some of SEA nations can't challange what China put in SCS.
Strum, I never say it will deter China..like I say in previous post..no SEA country abble to match China economically..thus no one in SEA will be able to match China asset in SCS on same level.Those nations you mentioned will have nothing to gain from doing this. Also, what makes you think that challenging China will make China think twice about doing what it's currently doing? If a certain country were to add the number of ships it has in the area to confront Chinese intrusions, the Chinese could reciprocate by sending even more ships. Note that nearly all of the Chinese ships in the disputed area are not military ships [mostly ships from the China Maritime Surveillance] but if others were to up the ante; China could respond by sending more ships and next time around they could be PLAN ships. If China is willing to tangle with the likes of the U.S, South Korea and Japan do you think any doubling of ships in the area or a more assertive [perceived by Chinese to be 'provocative'] policy by say Malaysia or Taiwan would really deter China?
[Inside Story - Why Is China Downsizing Its Military Force?]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqCYzCQ9PWw
The Indonesian reports give distance from the coast. That tells you that the incident was in Indonesian territorial waters.The fishing boat was near the island, but so far I haven't found any detail indicate its in territorial or EEZ. Also the incident indicate the Chinese coast Guard ram its own fishing boat presumably free from Indonesia ship. Sure China is wrong in this, but it didn't escalated by raming Indonesia Ship.
On the other side, I consider Indonesia much more aggressive compare to Vietnam/japan or other nation dealing with illegal fishing. For starter I haven't seen news on Vietnam/china/japan sinking as many as 100 trawlers. 2nd, Indonesia use NAVY ships to pursue and sometime fire upon trawler, sometime has deadly consequence. I haven't seen other nations, china/vietnam/japan use navy ship to handle this kind of situation.