The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Systems Adict]

British Navy Sees Delay In Delivery Of South Korean-Built Tanker

The first of the Tide-class tankers has slipped behind schedule. 'First-of-class' issues blamed.

Hmmm...

Stinks of history repeating itself.

Wave Ruler & Wave Knight spring to mind. Built to 'commercial standards' & then the silly servants come in & say it needs to have 'X, Y & Z' !

Built in 2001, entered service in late 2002 / early 2003.

When will they learn...?

 

[Sellers]

With the batch 2 rivers being in the press such a lot recently. I wondered what peoples opinion were on their usefulness to the Royal Navy?

Personally, they're clearly an improvement on the x3 batch 1s with some helo capability, speed, armament (marginally).

I believe they're would be some versatility in building the later two rivers with a teloscopic hangar, and then those ships forward based and committed to atlantic patrol north and south respectively. Marginal cost (hopefully), and I genuinely believe with a guard ship for the falklands with a permanently assigned wildcat, x4 typhoon, rapier, circa 1000 servicemen etc is sufficient in the current climate, with occassional visits from the FF/DD force.

I also womdered what people thoughts were on where the batch 1s could end up, as well as Hms Clyde.

Again to get the ball rolling, I can understand with budgets as they are and the understandable desire to ensure resourses are directed to front line ships that they're to be retired (sadly, and far too early).

I would love to see them, gifted to the border force myself.

And I had thoughts that....as long as they are.....would there be any possibility in 'gifting' Clyde to gibraltar. Limited helo facilities for any assets, 'visiting' the rock or from passing FF/DD force. No capital expenditure for the gibraltan gov. And a a crewing of circa 100 (to cover rotations) for the gib gov to cover as an op expenditure not too inhibiting, on a ship that is relatively basic.

Under the control of the Royal Navy, but committed to providing a presense to Gibraltar and an additional resource to the med, for example relieving say hms enterprise from her duties with a more adequate platform. With no ongoing costs to the royal navy budget.

Thanks,

Sellers

 

[Waylander]

I expect the government of Gibraltar to say: "No thanks, we are part of the Kingdom so defend us just like everybody else. The Welsh don't have to pay for additional defense expenditures either."

And they would be quite right in saying so.

 

[Vulcan]

IMO it's more or less a non-event, my personal expectation is the same sort of taskings batch 1 are currently doing with maybe more trips across the Atlantic. They might pop up more places you wouldn't see a batch 1 so if that takes some pressure off the escort fleet/RFA then that's good.

They are an improvement on batch 1, definitely. But not quite where I'd like them to be in absolute utility. Then again, I don't know the ins-and-outs of the whole arrangement and the potential compromises that may arise if they added even a rudimentary aviation capability.

AFAIK the plan in the SDSR was up to 6 OPVs which I took to mean 5 batch 2 + Clyde, however that since has been reduced to 5 so presumably Clyde will be replaced by a batch 2.

 

[ASSAIL]

The link, a paper by David Axe on the state of the RN, provides a rather glum view of the reduction in both power and manpower from the progressive cuts endured by this proud force and cautions the USN against following suit.

Quite depressing really for someone like me who spent 3 years on exchange with the RN from 1976-1979

Commentary: What the U.S. should learn from Britain’s dying navy | Reuters

 

[swerve]

I expect the government of Gibraltar to say: "No thanks, we are part of the Kingdom so defend us just like everybody else. The Welsh don't have to pay for additional defense expenditures either."

And they would be quite right in saying so.

Except that the Welsh already pay. Most of the taxes collected in Wales are collected by the HM Revenue & Customs & go straight to the Treasury, exactly as in England, while Gibraltar's taxes are collected by the government of Gibraltar & stay in Gibraltar.

Asking Gibraltar to make a contribution to defence spending is perfectly reasonable. At present, it not only doesn't pay for its own defence, but benefits economically from UK defence spending in Gibraltar.

 

[swerve]

The link, a paper by David Axe on the state of the RN, provides a rather glum view of the reduction in both power and manpower from the progressive cuts endured by this proud force and cautions the USN against following suit.

Quite depressing really for someone like me who spent 3 years on exchange with the RN from 1976-1979

Commentary: What the U.S. should learn from Britain’s dying navy | Reuters

Some basic factual errors in that article, e.g. it says that the UK is buying only 48 F-35B. It then bases some of its argument on that incorrect number.

 

[AegisFC]

Some basic factual errors in that article, e.g. it says that the UK is buying only 48 F-35B. It then bases some of its argument on that incorrect number.

Axe is a hack who has an... ax... to grind against the F-35. I rarely pay attention to anything he writes.

 

[Waylander]

Except that the Welsh already pay. Most of the taxes collected in Wales are collected by the HM Revenue & Customs & go straight to the Treasury, exactly as in England, while Gibraltar's taxes are collected by the government of Gibraltar & stay in Gibraltar.

Asking Gibraltar to make a contribution to defence spending is perfectly reasonable. At present, it not only doesn't pay for its own defence, but benefits economically from UK defence spending in Gibraltar.

Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[ASSAIL]

Some basic factual errors in that article, e.g. it says that the UK is buying only 48 F-35B. It then bases some of its argument on that incorrect number.

Yes there are factual errors but as the piece is more broad brush commentary the sentiment remains true.

I sincerely hope that the UK rebuilds (over time) a navy commensurate with its history, realpolitik and world wide commitments.

 

[swerve]

Welll . . . I dunno. Let's play a little game, shall we. The USA has about five times the population (& more than five times the GDP) of the UK, so let's multiply everything in the RN by five & see how they compare -

RN carriers building = 2 x 5 = 10
USN carriers = 10 (bigger)
LHD/LPH = 1 x 5 = 5 vs 12
LPD = 2 x 5 = 10 vs 9
LSD = 3 x 5 = 15 vs 12
SSN/SSGN = 7 x 5 = 35 vs 58
SSBN = 4 x 5 = 20 vs 14
Cruisers = 0 vs 22
Destroyers/frigates = 19 x 5 = 85 vs 62
LCS = 0 vs 6
MCMV = 15 x 5 = 75 vs 11


It doesn't look too bad on that basis, does it? Not quite 'disappearing', though there are areas where I'd like numbers increased.

 

[aussienscale]

Welll . . . I dunno. Let's play a little game, shall we. The USA has about five times the population (& more than five times the GDP) of the UK, so let's multiply everything in the RN by five & see how they compare -

RN carriers building = 2 x 5 = 10
USN carriers = 10 (bigger)
LHD/LPH = 1 x 5 = 5 vs 12
LPD = 2 x 5 = 10 vs 9
LSD = 3 x 5 = 15 vs 12
SSN/SSGN = 7 x 5 = 35 vs 58
SSBN = 4 x 5 = 20 vs 14
Cruisers = 0 vs 22
Destroyers/frigates = 19 x 5 = 85 vs 62
LCS = 0 vs 6
MCMV = 15 x 5 = 75 vs 11


It doesn't look too bad on that basis, does it? Not quite 'disappearing', though there are areas where I'd like numbers increased.

Really ? a basic numbers by numbers, extrapolation of population V population, Budget V Budget expansion to compare ?

Even with that, just like Australia and the Canberra's, the UK with the QE2's will have one available most ? of the time ? Sometimes, maybe ? to then stretch that out and compare that to the US numbers and what can be put to sea ? really ?

And that is being ambitious on the rule of 3 baiscs, you know better !!

 

[Volkodav]

Nott may have resigned / been shown the door, but it seems in hindsight that he and his ilk won. In fact it could be argued that it was his cuts to an already lean RN (even though some were subsequently reversed) that are the root cause of the current situation. The loss of the Type 43/44 and Seadart Mk2 were a major impact as these ships were to have replaced the County Class DLGs and possibly Bristol, supplementing the Type 42s, in the decade post Falklands.

 

[CdnDefWriter]

Nott may have resigned / been shown the door, but it seems in hindsight that he and his ilk won. In fact it could be argued that it was his cuts to an already lean RN (even though some were subsequently reversed) that are the root cause of the current situation. The loss of the Type 43/44 and Seadart Mk2 were a major impact as these ships were to have replaced the County Class DLGs and possibly Bristol, supplementing the Type 42s, in the decade post Falklands.

Possibly.
I could never figure out why the RN gave up the highly automated Bristol AAD, it seemed on a comparison basis much more advanced than most Type 42 and an obvious choice to run-on until past Type 42 retirement.
Or was there some other undisclosed reason they prematurely, in my opinion, retired her?

 

[CdnDefWriter]

Except that the Welsh already pay. Most of the taxes collected in Wales are collected by the HM Revenue & Customs & go straight to the Treasury, exactly as in England, while Gibraltar's taxes are collected by the government of Gibraltar & stay in Gibraltar.

Asking Gibraltar to make a contribution to defence spending is perfectly reasonable. At present, it not only doesn't pay for its own defence, but benefits economically from UK defence spending in Gibraltar.

I thought there were 'speed' issues with HMS Clyde in regards to faster Spanish vessels?
In my opinion it would not be unreasonable to have Gibralter fund an additional Batch 2 Opv that would be a dedicated Gibralter 'Guardship' - thus freeing up Opv funds that could be reassigned towards Type 26, considering that would cover some half? of RN / Army Gibralter garrison costs.

 

[swerve]

Possibly.
I could never figure out why the RN gave up the highly automated Bristol AAD, it seemed on a comparison basis much more advanced than most Type 42 and an obvious choice to run-on until past Type 42 retirement.
Or was there some other undisclosed reason they prematurely, in my opinion, retired her?

Steam power. The navy gave it up, & wasn't going to keep the entire infrastructure, including having to train crew, just for one ship. It'd have made her by far the most expensive ship in the navy to operate.

 

[StobieWan]

I thought there were 'speed' issues with HMS Clyde in regards to faster Spanish vessels?
In my opinion it would not be unreasonable to have Gibralter fund an additional Batch 2 Opv that would be a dedicated Gibralter 'Guardship' - thus freeing up Opv funds that could be reassigned towards Type 26, considering that would cover some half? of RN / Army Gibralter garrison costs.

The RN will already have some fairly young OPV's they could dispose of - the order for four OPV's recently are pretty much surplus to requirements and were intended to keep the yards ticking over til Type 26 came on stream.

 

[swerve]

Yeah. We get newer & better OPVs, but we didn't need 'em. One or two extra might have come in handy, especially if they came with better aviation facilities, but much lower priority than other things.Only ordered because the planning for Type 26 has been such a mess.

Sign a contract guaranteeing someone work, then postpone work you've promised 'em to save money, & only then realise that'll leave 'em sitting around doing nothing but still getting paid by you & losing the skills you need 'em to have to do the work you will eventually need done. Doh! So the OPVs were ordered so at least we get something for the money, & to keep the shipyards & workers in shape.

 

[John Fedup]

Sign a contract guaranteeing someone work, then postpone work you've promised 'em to save money, & only then realise that'll leave 'em sitting around doing nothing but still getting paid by you & losing the skills you need 'em to have to do the work you will eventually need done. Doh! So the OPVs were ordered so at least we get something for the money, & to keep the shipyards & workers in shape.

That sounds so depressingly familiar for what has happened here in the past. I just hope the AOPV program isn't used as a similar crutch to delay our new surface combatant vessels.

 

[StobieWan]

Yeah. We get newer & better OPVs, but we didn't need 'em. One or two extra might have come in handy, especially if they came with better aviation facilities, but much lower priority than other things.Only ordered because the planning for Type 26 has been such a mess.

Sign a contract guaranteeing someone work, then postpone work you've promised 'em to save money, & only then realise that'll leave 'em sitting around doing nothing but still getting paid by you & losing the skills you need 'em to have to do the work you will eventually need done. Doh! So the OPVs were ordered so at least we get something for the money, & to keep the shipyards & workers in shape.

Kind of ironic when you realise the tankers were let to Korea partly on cost and partly on the fact that there was no yard available, then a year and a bit later we're forking out four hundred mill for a set of OPV's we could do without when they may well have been able to have been building the the tankers (they'd have cost more than getting them done in Korea, but four hundred million more?

Not sure if the timing stacks up but it's a thought.