South China Sea thoughts?

Think_Tank

New Member
So, apparrently there is a Chinese Frigate parked on a reef in the Phillipines EEZ...

How embarrassing for them, has the Phillipines Government taken any action? Joined the salvage effort?

Edit: Apparrently i'm a few days too late..
Unfortunately current administration all do is talk and has no concrete plan of retrieving the island illegally occupied by Chinese despite of UNCLOS verdict that island is owned by Philippines. Current president is promoting China's ideology and doctrines and instead insulted the US president and telling the world openly in public that he is not a fan of US and recently announced procuring Chinese weapons.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Every rising power eventually have a conflict with established power, with exception of British empire give US space to grow in late 19/early 20 century.
Did the Brits really give the Americans ''space to grow'' or was it because they were unable to do anything about it or because it wasn't in their interests to stop the Americans from ''growing''? Take the Caribbean for example; when America was making the Caribbean an American lake, it was quite prepared to use military means to face any European power that stood in it way. It just happened that no European power decided to intervene; either because they lacked the means or because it wouldn't have benefited them.

If we look at the situation prior to WW1; Britain was willing to acknowledge Germany's position as a continental power as long as Germany didn't build a navy that could take on the RN and didn't pursue any policies that threatened British interests anywhere in the world. The Brits started getting worried when the Kaiser started laying the foundations of a navy that appeared to have the long term potential of being able to meet the RN on equal terms; a situation Bismarck had long warned his Kaiser to avoid.

Current president is promoting China's ideology and doctrines and instead insulted the US president and telling the world openly in public that he is not a fan of US and recently announced procuring Chinese weapons.
I suspect that it's mostly talk. Sure the Philippines might buy some gear from China and Russia but at the end of the day; the Philippines will still rely on the U.S. for diplomatic and military support. The Philippines has had a colonial like dependency [to quote Robert Kaplan in ''Asia's Cauldron: The South China Sea and the End of a Stable Pacific''] on the U.S. for decades and I doubt if this will change; despite what Durtarte says. Also, if Durtarte was really serious about pursuing what he calls an independent foreign policy, then he should renounce the U.S./Philippines Mutual Defence Treaty and reject any more offers made by the Americans for the transfer of pre-owned military gear! The Philippines Coast Guard will be the beneficiary of a pair of ex-U.S. Army Sherpas in December - the fact remains that the Philippines benefits immensely from its close ties with Uncle Sam. All the recent announcements by Durtarte with regards to the U.S. is music to China's years. The Chinese will be more than happy to fill that void by offering increasing their level of investments and offering military gear at ''friendship'' prices.
 
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weaponwh

Member
I do think as china grow into 2025 and beyond, the cost will be too much for any country to challenge China in term of military. Hopefully by that time US/China can settle some kind agreement on ScS etc. But it will be hard for US give in to China influence in the region, and harder for China to allow US the sole dominance power in the region.

As for phillippine or Vietnam I can see China willing to cut a deal as long they dont poke at China too much, such as join patrol with US and Japan, openly challenges China etc. China has pretty decent relation with Malaysia, so does US, mainly because Malaysia stay fairly neutral and leverage the situation to get some good deal out of China or US.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Did the Brits really give the Americans ''space to grow'' or was it because they were unable to do anything about it or because it wasn't in their interests to stop the Americans from ''growing''? Take the Caribbean for example; when America was making the Caribbean an American lake, it was quite prepared to use military means to face any European power that stood in it way. It just happened that no European power decided to intervene; either because they lacked the means or because it wouldn't have benefited them.
Most likely it wasn't worth the effort for Britain (or any other European power) to get involved in a pi$$ing match in the Caribbean. Spain was really the only player that the US took issue with. Besides, India and the Far East were Britain's crown jewels and nobody could interfere with them until WW1.

ok at the situation prior to WW1; Britain was willing to acknowledge Germany's position as a continental power as long as Germany didn't build a navy that could take on the RN and didn't pursue any policies that threatened British interests anywhere in the world. The Brits started getting worried when the Kaiser started laying the foundations of a navy that appeared to have the long term potential of being able to meet the RN on equal terms; a situation Bismarck had long warned his Kaiser to avoid.
Exactly right and certainly there are some worrying similarities today in the SCS.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
China has pretty decent relation with Malaysia, so does US, mainly because Malaysia stay fairly neutral and leverage the situation to get some good deal out of China or US.
Malaysia has always portrayed itself as neutral or non-aligned and has made great efforts in being best mates with the Chinese. The fact remains however that Malaysia has had a decades long close defence relationship with Uncle Sam and the relationship is reaching new levels - there are regular military exchanges, regular air, sea and land exercises and the first ASEAN country F-22s participated in a bilateral exercise was in Malaysia. The only difference [compared to some of its neighbours] is that Malaysia often plays down the extent of its defence ties with Uncle Sam and does not allow for the permanent deployment of U.S. military assets in the country.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Did the Brits really give the Americans ''space to grow'' .
Oh yes. Not because of any benevolent feelings for the American rebels, but because in the early days of the USA the UK preferred it to be independent than to be under the control or influence of any other European country. And the same applied to the Spanish colonies after their wars of independence. So the Monroe doctrine was effectively enforced by the Royal Navy.

If we look at the situation prior to WW1; Britain was willing to acknowledge Germany's position as a continental power as long as Germany didn't build a navy that could take on the RN and didn't pursue any policies that threatened British interests anywhere in the world.
Willing to acknowledge Germany's position as a continental power, but not the continental power. And not one in control of the low countries. That was a red line which must not be crossed, like Russian control of the Turkish straits.
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Three things.

First, it's not so much about justification. Those come later. It's about reasons for action. It matters far more why China is acting the way it is then how it justifies those actions.

Second, when actions in relatively recent past (like the post-Cold War settlement) have a giant impact today, pretending that the past is the past isn't really fair. And comparing the treatment of China over the late 19th and first half of the 20th century to something that happened by geopolitical entities that haven't been around for centuries isn't really relevant. The US has a whole network of small islands in the Pacific. That isn't the historic result of some ancient events. It's the direct result of a deliberate imperialist policy in modern history. I'm not saying the US needs to hand over those islands, but I am saying that Chinese desires are modest compared to what the US already has. Chinese behavior is problematic not only because of the behavior but also because there is no currently acceptable international framework to deal with a rising power without conflict.

Third, it's not so much about countries losing importance. That's a significantly smaller problem. If Russia was getting weaker and feeling insecure about it, it would be no big deal. It's the fact that Russia was weak and is getting stronger again, and wants to undo what was forced (or "persuaded" in exchange for promises made and not always kept) on it when it was weak. Much the same but on a bigger scale applies to China. And unfortunately there is the Middle-Eastern powderkeg, a startling and very unpleasant parallel to the pre-WWI Balkans.

It seems to me Waylander that you are approaching the problem in terms of right and wrong. But these are not useful categories when we are talking about politics. It doesn't matter how "right" the US position is vis-a-vis international law (that the US had a major hand in writing, and China got little to no say in ;) ) if the US being right still leads the world into WWIII with a tens of millions death toll, and entire countries laid to waste. This is why I think situations like Ukraine and the SCS are alarm bells that the current order is in trouble, and the process of looking for a new one needs to begin.
I fully understand that it is an explanation of why it happens.

But that doesn't mean it is an eternal law that it has to happen this way. Russia for example could try to accept that parts of it's past aren't that glorious. They never got cheated over eastern europe. What happened is that an oppressor with an iron fist (them) retreated from the countries it occupied for decades.

And these countries through their own free will tried to join NATO and the EU as equals as fast as possible. What does Russia has to offer instead? Why can a country like Poland be on generally good terms with Germany after all we did but not with Russia?

The same applies to China. The imperial grapping of the US happened some 100-150 years ago.

As if China couldn't feel secure without the outer island chain and without full control of the yellow sea. And it's not as if it's immediate and rather innocent neighbours are the real target of it's agressive policy instead of the oh do imperial US.

Saying that we need a new framework so that countries like Russia or China can bully their neighbourhood is not an option for me when just letting drop the big egos and perceived ancient slights to their honor is a much better option for everybody involved.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I fully understand that it is an explanation of why it happens.

But that doesn't mean it is an eternal law that it has to happen this way. Russia for example could try to accept that parts of it's past aren't that glorious. They never got cheated over eastern europe. What happened is that an oppressor with an iron fist (them) retreated from the countries it occupied for decades.
Well it gets complicated. For example, in several towns, and not the smallest ones, there's an active push to put up monuments to Stalin. And this is coming from the public, the government has little desire to do this, much less spend money on it. The first one went up a little bit ago, in Sochi, and now a second one has appeared in a semi-legal manner, after municipal authorities ignored all public requests, in Surgut. That having been said, the government stance doesn't help things either. And Russia isn't unique in this. Ukraine is in a similar boat vis-a-vis the crimes of Ukrainian Nazi collaborators, for example, and Poland recently has become more and more troubling in terms of revisionism (their MinDef recently had the gall to say that although the Volyn massacre was perpetrated by Ukrainian Nazis under German oversight, really Russian agents were behind it :hitwall ). So revisionism in general is on the rise in Eastern Europe as countries try to re-write history to suit their present-day narrative. And they're not alone in this. Few US history classes mention that Lincoln used troops to gun down anti-draft protests during the Civil War, and not many in France are willing to acknowledge the atrocities they committed during the Algerian independence war. It's a rather sad and ugly truth that this sort of thing is more common in Eastern Europe, and especially Russia (with all of the imperial ambitions).

And these countries through their own free will tried to join NATO and the EU as equals as fast as possible. What does Russia has to offer instead? Why can a country like Poland be on generally good terms with Germany after all we did but not with Russia?
The short answer is because Germany lost WWII, and the Soviets won it. Had the Poles lived under ~50 years of German Nazi occupation, it's not unlikely that the situation would be reversed, especially if Germany was never defeated militarily, and retained fond memories of it's time as a super power. That having been said, Poland and Russia have been at odds for centuries. For a brief time span Poland even treated Russia as a colony (this was during the Middle Ages). So there's a lot of bad blood there, not all of it necessarily relevant to the current problems.

The same applies to China. The imperial grapping of the US happened some 100-150 years ago.

As if China couldn't feel secure without the outer island chain and without full control of the yellow sea. And it's not as if it's immediate and rather innocent neighbours are the real target of it's agressive policy instead of the oh do imperial US.
The neighbors' islands are tools with which to oppose the US. But that's neither here nor there. Many things "could" happen in theory. But what matters is what is happening in practice. There is a cascade of smaller conflicts with great powers balancing off against each other over them. It's not a good situation.

Saying that we need a new framework so that countries like Russia or China can bully their neighbourhood is not an option for me when just letting drop the big egos and perceived ancient slights to their honor is a much better option for everybody involved.
The west funding anti-government protests, ousting an elected government, pretending that an illegal junta is anything but, and then supporting fake elections (prior to which the two largest parties in all of Ukraine were legally banned) is anything but a perceived or ancient slight. Ignoring the UN and going to war in Yugoslavia and Iraq were not perceived slights to Russian honor, but real attacks on the post-WWII international arrangement, and they didn't come from Russia or China. Turning a no-fly zone resolution over Libya into an excuse for an all out bombing campaign, with SpecOps on the ground, didn't help either. And there are American trails all over both the color revolutions and Arab Spring. Hell, I literally took a college class, here in the US of A where a college professor taught us how color revolutions are started, organized, how to make one happen. It needs to be understood that once the US became the only super power after the Cold War, it started to act like the only super power. Russia and China refuse to acknowledge this, and are challenging this in whatever ways they can. Other countries, while not directly challenging America's status, are nonetheless undermining the US position by acting in line with their own rather then US interests. The situation is untenable in the long run on multiple fronts, and if we want to avoid a major war, real consideration needs to be given to an international arrangement that recognizes the changes that have taken place since 1945, and since 1994. If you really want to make the argument that big countries can't bully small ones, then the US, Britain and France need to set the standard by being willing to follow the same principles. If the they continue to act like they're special, and can do what they feel necessary when they feel necessary, while everyone else has to follow the rules (a crooked set of rules laid down by a handful of actors quite some time ago) then we are headed for another war. This is reality. No matter whose fault it is, no matter what is and isn't justified, political actions have to be goal oriented. If you goal is to be right no matter what, you might find yourself right, and in the middle of a burned out bombed out husk of a civilization.

Again, none of my commentary on western behavior does anything to excuse Russia or China. The point of it is to illustrate that the problem isn't just one of two countries acting up. The post-WWII framework as a whole is in trouble and from multiple sides.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'll add one more thought to this. Russia has been running tests and checks on various government agencies, in the event of a major (MAJOR) war. They've also begun forming reservist formations similar to the American ones, with contract reservists serving in them, and getting called up for duty in case of war. In addition to this, in the recent Caucus-2016 exercises they tested interoperability between other state agencies, and the MoD, in the event of a large war. These are all very troubling signs. The Serdyukov reform was aimed at giving Russia a modern, mobile army, for small and medium conflicts, with some ability to fight a big war. Now they're gearing up for a big one, again. I think they also see it coming.
 

weaponwh

Member
Malaysia has always portrayed itself as neutral or non-aligned and has made great efforts in being best mates with the Chinese. The fact remains however that Malaysia has had a decades long close defence relationship with Uncle Sam and the relationship is reaching new levels - there are regular military exchanges, regular air, sea and land exercises and the first ASEAN country F-22s participated in a bilateral exercise was in Malaysia. The only difference [compared to some of its neighbours] is that Malaysia often plays down the extent of its defence ties with Uncle Sam and does not allow for the permanent deployment of U.S. military assets in the country.
which I think they can use to leverage both for good deals. Stay neutral is better than lean too much toward either position. ScS is more important to China than US, and china will more likely to punish the smaller nation who lean too much on US side, such as economy,fishing right etc, while US wont do the same. Which is more important for country such as phillippine to negotiate a deal with china to allow fishing in the area, this is something only china can control, as US will not goto war with china for phillippine fishing right.
 

gazzzwp

Member
I'll add one more thought to this. Russia has been running tests and checks on various government agencies, in the event of a major (MAJOR) war. They've also begun forming reservist formations similar to the American ones, with contract reservists serving in them, and getting called up for duty in case of war. In addition to this, in the recent Caucus-2016 exercises they tested interoperability between other state agencies, and the MoD, in the event of a large war. These are all very troubling signs. The Serdyukov reform was aimed at giving Russia a modern, mobile army, for small and medium conflicts, with some ability to fight a big war. Now they're gearing up for a big one, again. I think they also see it coming.
I hope it's not too off topic to explore Feanor but I find your words highly intriguing. Could they be trying to warn off potential adversaries by making these discrete actions? How would such a war begin and why do they see it to be imminent? Just having a 50 000 or so defensive NATO force close by surely should not concern Russia and neither should the one or two missile shield installations. A miscalculation incident in the air or on the water say in the Baltic or Black Sea is likely to be easily resolved once both sides have drawn first blood.

Is it that Russia needs to start a major conflict for economic reasons? The signs over the last few days indicate that the Russian economy has stabilised (Interest rates being lowered). Are they deeply worried about Sweden or Finland joining NATO? What are we not seeing?

I feel that they could be secretly skeptical about US co-operation in Syria and are expecting a major escalation there. Maybe that's it?
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Feanor,

In your opinion, was NATO expansion into countries bordering Russia a right move in that it made Russia even more insecure and suspicious of Western/NATO motives? Is it true that in the 1990's NATO initially provided assurances that it would not expend its membership to include countries bordering Russia?

From a Russian perspective, does the Russian political elite really believe that the West would rather have a weak Russia [as was the case in the 1990's] and that all this talk about a resurgent and aggressive Russia is really intended to kept Russia weak and justify NATO expansion and increased funding?

Again from a Russian perspective; would it correct to say that Russia has had enough of seeing the West have its way in the Middle East with all the disastrous consequences and Russia's involvement in the Middle East is not only intended to safeguard Russia's national interests [damaged to some extent by Western policy in the region] and also to showcase that Russia is back on the world stage and cannot be ignored? Viewed objectively, Russia's involvement in Syria has led to some positive results in that it forced the U.S. to be more flexible regarding its policy over Syria and led to the recent peace deal which would never have happened had it not been for Russia.

How do the Russians perceive recent NATO statements about a ''threat'' posed by an ''aggressive'' Russia and NATO exercises held in areas close to Russia? Do NATO exercises and U.S. deployments to Europe actually make the Russians sit back and think twice about doing anything that might be viewed in the West as ''aggressive'' and ''provocative'' or do they have the opposite effect of ensuring that the Russians continue doing what they're doing in response to what they perceive as Western ''aggression'' and ''provocation''?
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I hope it's not too off topic to explore Feanor but I find your words highly intriguing. Could they be trying to warn off potential adversaries by making these discrete actions? How would such a war begin and why do they see it to be imminent? Just having a 50 000 or so defensive NATO force close by surely should not concern Russia and neither should the one or two missile shield installations. A miscalculation incident in the air or on the water say in the Baltic or Black Sea is likely to be easily resolved once both sides have drawn first blood.

Is it that Russia needs to start a major conflict for economic reasons? The signs over the last few days indicate that the Russian economy has stabilised (Interest rates being lowered). Are they deeply worried about Sweden or Finland joining NATO? What are we not seeing?

I feel that they could be secretly skeptical about US co-operation in Syria and are expecting a major escalation there. Maybe that's it?
These aren't preparations for a war tomorrow. And they're proceeding at a relatively leisurely pace. But they're indications that Russian strategic planners now consider a major war more likely then before. It's also indicative that this took place in the south, close to both Ukraine and the Caucuses. Two places where Russia may find itself involved in a conventional conflict.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Feanor,

In your opinion, was NATO expansion into countries bordering Russia a right move in that it made Russia even more insecure and suspicious of Western/NATO motives? Is it true that in the 1990's NATO initially provided assurances that it would not expend its membership to include countries bordering Russia?
NATO's Eastward Expansion: Did the West Break Its Promise to Moscow? - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Whether it was a mistake or not, depends on what you see as the goal.

From a Russian perspective, does the Russian political elite really believe that the West would rather have a weak Russia [as was the case in the 1990's] and that all this talk about a resurgent and aggressive Russia is really intended to kept Russia weak and justify NATO expansion and increased funding?
That belief is prevalent to the point where it's assumed without even needing explicit stating or proving. And I don't think it's baseless. I think the US would certainly prefer Russia did not meddle in US geopolitical moves around the globe.

Again from a Russian perspective; would it correct to say that Russia has had enough of seeing the West have its way in the Middle East with all the disastrous consequences and Russia's involvement in the Middle East is not only intended to safeguard Russia's national interests [damaged to some extent by Western policy in the region] and also to showcase that Russia is back on the world stage and cannot be ignored? Viewed objectively, Russia's involvement in Syria has led to some positive results in that it forced the U.S. to be more flexible regarding its policy over Syria and led to the recent peace deal which would never have happened had it not been for Russia.

How do the Russians perceive recent NATO statements about a ''threat'' posed by an ''aggressive'' Russia and NATO exercises held in areas close to Russia? Do NATO exercises and U.S. deployments to Europe actually make the Russians sit back and think twice about doing anything that might be viewed in the West as ''aggressive'' and ''provocative'' or do they have the opposite effect of ensuring that the Russians continue doing what they're doing in response to what they perceive as Western ''aggression'' and ''provocation''?
It's hard to say. For example, NATO has made it very clear that the Baltics will be protected. On the one hand Russia continues to conduct large scale exercises of their own around there, on the other hand there doesn't seem to be any directed effort at preparing for a war there, specifically. Most of their efforts are focused around the south, Ukraine, the Caucuses, and to some extent Central Asia. You're asking me to assess internal Russian decision-making, and I'm afraid I can't give you a 100% answer.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your input. Much appreciated.

What I don't get is why Russian exercises in areas close to the Baltics are seen by the West as provocative when NATO exercises in the same area and also in countries that were formerly part of the Warsaw Pact are in turn seen by the Russians as provocative. It never ends, NATO will claim that exercises are defensive in nature, are no way intended to raise tensions with Russia and are in response to Russian actions. The problem here is that the Russians can make the same argument. They can say that any increase in troop levels in Kaliningrad and in areas bordering the Ukraine are legitimate moves by Russia to improves its defences against any external threat but is not intended to raise tensions with NATO.
 

gazzzwp

Member
These aren't preparations for a war tomorrow. And they're proceeding at a relatively leisurely pace. But they're indications that Russian strategic planners now consider a major war more likely then before. It's also indicative that this took place in the south, close to both Ukraine and the Caucuses. Two places where Russia may find itself involved in a conventional conflict.
Just to put this into the pot. By sheer coincidence in today's news:

Russia is seriously running out of cash - Sep. 16, 2016

My gut feel has always been that Russia these days is more likely to feel fear about economic issues rather than military ones. Despite Putin's best efforts oil is continuing to fall in price and the long term outlook is not good.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Just to put this into the pot. By sheer coincidence in today's news:

Russia is seriously running out of cash - Sep. 16, 2016

My gut feel has always been that Russia these days is more likely to feel fear about economic issues rather than military ones. Despite Putin's best efforts oil is continuing to fall in price and the long term outlook is not good.
Sure, this isn't wrong, though it's not the whole picture either. And let's not conflate the economic situation of Russia with the financial situation of the Russian state specifically. The two are related but are not the same.

Anyways, that's enough derailing, let's get this back on the subject of China and their moves in the SCS.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indonesia dan AS Jajaki Patroli Bersama di Batas Luar Wilayah RI

Sorry in Indonesian. Frm Detik.Com, the article say 'Indonesia Studied Join Patrol with US Ouside Indonesian Teritory'.
Not clear what it's mean outside Indonesian Teritory, whether this means outside 12 mile teritorial water (thus mean EEZ) or even in international waters beyond that 200 mile EEZ.

The article talk about meeting in Washington between US NOOA, and Indonesian Maritime Minister Susi Pudjiastuti, which she is the main driver for recent tougher policies against ilegal fishing in Indonesian waters. She's in US to talk on International conference for anti ilegal fishing.

However my main issue in here, related the topic on this thread, that Indonesia as the biggest country in SEA (both economically and in teritory), continue shown the need to play on both side of China and US and keep try to ballance each other. US is the biggest export market for Indonesia, whille China is number two. This administration in the begining shown more favorable policies on China favour compared to previous admin, but now shown more balance and in some sector even lean more to US favour.

So the idea that SEA nation has to choose side, is basically not practical in some countries, considering they need to balance both economic and securities that heavily tied-up with China and US (and its allies).
There will always countries like Myanmar or Cambodia that are more in China camp, or like Singapore and Malaysia (and God knows what Philipine wants and moved under present Admin ;)) which tradionally more western leaning, and the rest that try to be in the middle.

China behaviour in SCS recently offcourse change the balance more to US favour in some countries, but again they also still far from those countries to be in opposite side of China all the way.

China has to recognise the pattern, and hawkish behaviour of some Chinese ultra nationalist camp on antagonising whoever that not went all the way in recognising China claim..really put whoever want to stay in the middle to have no choice to choose side in the end.

@Feanor, it's true that pre WW1 up until Post WW2, the behaviour of the west on implementing their new found power (for US) is far worse than what China did recently in SCS. However the balance of power in that era is much clear cut compared to present days. Many of smaller powers currently are non-existance those days, which made the nature of the games can be discussed by only handfull of countries (relative to present conditions).

Agree with you that the west need to be more mature on putting their possition, but so does Russia and China. The ballance now can be more easily tipped one side to another by more smaller 'new' powers (relative to their emergences), need to be recognise by the more 'mature' powers as it is.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Ananda,

Granted times were different and it was a non communist government that ruled China then but for me it's so ironic looking at U.S/China ties today and what ties were like in the 1930's and 1940's. There was a very strong pro-China lobby in the U.S. and a lot of sympathy amongst the American public for what the Chinese were going through. Even before the U.S. officially entered into a state of war with Japan; it did all it could to assist the Chinese. The communist takeover in 1949 led to ties being severed but in the 1980's both countries established a new relationship which at the height of the Cold War was mutually beneficial. Contrast that to the situation we have today.
 
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