It makes the Navantia supply ship choice by defence procurement seem insightful.
Does anyone know the extent of the financial due diligence conducted during the bid process? And could that have been the major reason for the choice?
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Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
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Does anyone know the extent of the financial due diligence conducted during the bid process? And could that have been the major reason for the choice?
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
ASSAIL
I'm wondering exactly the same thing about NZ's choice of HHI over DSME. I had assumed HHI were offering a smaller/cheaper vessel than the Aegir presented by DSME, but company stability may well have played a role.
I can't comment on military procurement, but when assessing bids in other NZ govt departments we would normally rank the short-listed contenders according to their security/credit-worthiness. Normally it wasn't much of a factor in assessment, but could sometimes exclude a supplier if they were considered likely to go under before completing the work.
Given the size of DSME I would be surprised if they and the state-owned bank that is their largest single creditor don't manage to patch together some sort of deal to keep trading.
Thanks to Alexa for posting on this issue - I knew all the Korean yards were struggling, but wasn't aware of the fraud allegations. I wonder how concerned the RN is about their Tide-class vessels?
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Given that the tide spring/Mars tankers for RN exceed the requirement size for our RNZN surely ours would be in service much quicker than five yrs! after all, by 2018 Endevour will be 30 plus yrs old, and the navy themselves say on their website they want the Opv , Tanker, and littoral support vessel in service by 2020.
How does the RNZN requirement compare to the replenishment ship for Norway? Maud is an Aegir 18R, smaller than the Aegir 26 the RFA Tide class is based on. She's 181 metres long, beam 26, 26000 tons. The Tides are 201 by 29 metres, 37000 tons full load.
RFA Tidespring was last heard of undergoing sea trials in Korea. Tiderace & Tidesurge have been launched. Tideforce is building.
RFA Tidespring was last heard of undergoing sea trials in Korea. Tiderace & Tidesurge have been launched. Tideforce is building.
I also wondered that and more infact our requirements in comparison to the version offered to our australian mateys? I guess yes govt would have weighed up the issues DSME are going through and risk mitigated it out of contention as may have our neighbours as surely a 3 ship common fleet at least looks good on paper regionally? Safe option? Cost? Capabilities? I actually quite liked the look of the Aus version and look forward to seeing more of the Maud.
Still awaiting our super secret HHI tanker to make an appearance either way, 2018s just around the corner so at least an idea would be intrigueing to say the least.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
NZ's minimum requirement from the tender were:
From public comments, it was clear that DSME were offering variants of the Aegir 18R to both NZ and Australia, which is the same size as ordered by Norway. There has never been any comment on how the NZ/Aust variants would differ, if at all.
Another factor supporting Navantia over DSME is the amount of systems/design commonality with other Navantia-based vessels in the RAN. I know that DSME claims to be able to fit whatever systems the customer wants, but I can't help feel Navantia could do this better/more easily than DSME.
Yes I remember they actually took Cantabria for a test drive for a year or so, can't beat hands on to get a feel for any potential issues to seal a deal along with commonality with others in their fleet. Agreed the Aus/NZ versions would have been very similar, theirs just would have had a up-gunned weapons fit and a few more options ticked I guess.
There is also a wildcard entry from Damen with respect to the licensed design. They have had their designs built by Korean firms in the past.
http://products.damen.com/en/ranges...sel/logistic-support-vessel-replenisher-20000
http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/logistic-support-vessel/logistic-support-vessel-supporter-19000
http://products.damen.com/en/ranges...sel/logistic-support-vessel-replenisher-20000
http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/logistic-support-vessel/logistic-support-vessel-supporter-19000
Interesting. The Replenisher type meets the requirements of the RFT that was released wrt F76 and F44 cargo fuel. The Supporter is what they were looking at originally but doesn't have enough F76 and F44 cargo fuel capacity.
Some good options there in terms of range and no doubt could be tailored on build to meet the particular requirements needed for us. Could have also led into a possible littoral and OPV for commonality benefits and price deal. Project Supporter.
What with the Lotto Jackpot hitting $40m tomorrow maybe a self indulgent purchase of NZ Naval history if you get lucky. A couple of Moa Class inshore patrol craft.
HMNZS Tapaku was used as a survey craft.
Ex NZ Navy Explorer Motor Yacht | Trade Me
HMNZS Kiwi may bring back some memories for our South Island members.
Bluewater Cruiser 1984 | Trade Me
Since it was built in 1984 it has to be the old Kiwi though vendor did not mention that in the sales pitch.
The old Tapaku would look good in haze gray with the red ensign flying. But I would probably go for this sublime work of the boatbuilders art.
Classic Logan Cutter - Little Jim | Trade Me
HMNZS Tapaku was used as a survey craft.
Ex NZ Navy Explorer Motor Yacht | Trade Me
HMNZS Kiwi may bring back some memories for our South Island members.
Bluewater Cruiser 1984 | Trade Me
Since it was built in 1984 it has to be the old Kiwi though vendor did not mention that in the sales pitch.
The old Tapaku would look good in haze gray with the red ensign flying. But I would probably go for this sublime work of the boatbuilders art.
Classic Logan Cutter - Little Jim | Trade Me
Can't be Kiwi because Kiwi is in Melbourne and has been for years. Could be either Kahu or Moa. I know the wife of the guy who owns Wakakura and I am sure that's not Wakakura because I was speaking to her a couple of weeks ago and she said that it was still painted in battleship grey.What with the Lotto Jackpot hitting $40m tomorrow maybe a self indulgent purchase of NZ Naval history if you get lucky. A couple of Moa Class inshore patrol craft.
HMNZS Tapaku was used as a survey craft.
Ex NZ Navy Explorer Motor Yacht | Trade Me
HMNZS Kiwi may bring back some memories for our South Island members.
Bluewater Cruiser 1984 | Trade Me
Since it was built in 1984 it has to be the old Kiwi though vendor did not mention that in the sales pitch.
The old Tapaku would look good in haze gray with the red ensign flying. But I would probably go for this sublime work of the boatbuilders art.
Classic Logan Cutter - Little Jim | Trade Me
Kahu commissioned as Manawanui in 1979 renamed in 1988
Tarapunga commissioned 1980
Takapu commissioned 1980
Moa commissioned November 1983
Kiwi commissioned September 1984
Wakakura commissioned March 1985
Hinau commissioned October 1985
It is a mystery then though from memory both the survey Moa's were painted White and this could indeed be Takapu's older sister the Tarapunga and the build date is wrong. I have seen Wakakura in grey which no doubt was built in 1984 following Kiwi.
So NG - if you did win $40m would you buy her?
Kiwi has been alongside in Darwin from early June. I have a photo but it's too big and while I'm on my iPad I don't know how to resize it. She's dark blue hull with white uppers and is looking good. I spoke to her owner a few weeks ago.
Sorry forgot about the Hinau. I served on Kiwi so am familiar with the class. No if I won $40m I wouldn't buy one of those. They roll on wet grass and take a long time to get anywhere. I might purchase a DH Mosquito FB insteadKahu commissioned as Manawanui in 1979 renamed in 1988
Tarapunga commissioned 1980
Takapu commissioned 1980
Moa commissioned November 1983
Kiwi commissioned September 1984
Wakakura commissioned March 1985
Hinau commissioned October 1985
It is a mystery then though from memory both the survey Moa's were painted White and this could indeed be Takapu's older sister the Tarapunga and the build date is wrong. I have seen Wakakura in grey which no doubt was built in 1984 following Kiwi.
So NG - if you did win $40m would you buy her?
The Bluewater Cruiser for sale is "Moa", now called Flightless. I won't get one either after I collect my winnings tonightSorry forgot about the Hinau. I served on Kiwi so am familiar with the class. No if I won $40m I wouldn't buy one of those. They roll on wet grass and take a long time to get anywhere. I might purchase a DH Mosquito FB instead
. They were not to bad to sail in, but just before Dunedin loss her they added extra ballast, after that every trip was a vomit session.40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Chilean Navy Upgrading its Type 23 Frigates with RIM-162 ESSM Missile & Mk41 VLS
Chile has been actively considering SeaCeptor as an upgrade for their second-hand T-23 frigates. It looks as if they have opted to go for the alternative ESSM, as per the news above.
A shame from NZ's point of view, as with the new focus on Deep South operations, it is likely that RNZN's links with the Chilean Navy will increase over time.
Chile has been actively considering SeaCeptor as an upgrade for their second-hand T-23 frigates. It looks as if they have opted to go for the alternative ESSM, as per the news above.
A shame from NZ's point of view, as with the new focus on Deep South operations, it is likely that RNZN's links with the Chilean Navy will increase over time.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure that size is a big factor in build time for the big Korean yards - all these vessels are pipsqueaks compared to some commercial vessels. Complexity of design is more of a factor. Being a one-off or the first of class certainly won't help.
Incidentally, one of the Cabinet papers on the rejected C-17 purchase (see DefMin website) included a para on replacing some Antarctic cargo airlift with the new naval tanker. That paper has the vessel first coming available for the trip south in 2020/21.
Mr C's mention of the impressive-looking Damen design is a good reminder - I have simply assumed the vessel will be an in-house Hyundai design because they have plans available of roughly the right size. But it is entirely possible that they could have pitched a design from an external company, just as DSME did with BMT's Aegir design. Hopefully all will be revealed in the next month or so.
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Just when you thought our Frigate upgrade project couldn't get much worse (a recent major cost blow-out & a further 8-month delay), this happens:
End of Halifax-class frigate upgrade contract prompts layoff of 250 shipyard workers | Ottawa Citizen
Excellent. Well done NZG! Let's wait until the shipyard we've contracted to do the work lets go most of it's experienced workers. :splat
End of Halifax-class frigate upgrade contract prompts layoff of 250 shipyard workers | Ottawa Citizen
Excellent. Well done NZG! Let's wait until the shipyard we've contracted to do the work lets go most of it's experienced workers. :splat
t68
Well-Known Member
I imagine the yard would have known the forward work schedule and planned according, the yard laying off workers has nothing to do with NZG when letting out contracts for the work