Royal New Zealand Air Force

[ngatimozart]

RNZAF 42 squadron operated ten andovers when they were retired in 1997,replaced with B200 King Airs, about five in service . I think it was a cost cutting measure of the nineties , along with the frigates and ACF. Yet another capability gap to address.

Another will be Vip role i suppose for the ministers, frankly i would rather they charter civilian planes for that. My choice if A400 problems arent fixed in time would be 3, C17 and five C130 J, minimum

Please get it right especially the terminology. It so gets my teeth on edge especially as I was in the RNZAF & RNZN. No 1 Sqn RNZAF operated six Andovers until 1984 when it was disbanded. No 42 Sqn RNZAF operated four Andovers until 1984 and then took over No 1 Sqns Andovers when it was disbanded. The Andover was finally phased out in 1998.

There were five B200s until three years ago when the contract with Aeromotive NZ expired. These aircraft were serialled NZ1881 - 85. That lease was replaced with one from Hawker Pacific for four B200 which expires in 2018. The aircraft are serial number NZ7121 - 24. Note the change in the serial numbers. The first two digits in an NZ aviation military serial denotes the capability type e.g., training, strike, transport, rotary (fling) wing etc. The NZ1xxx series is twin engined training and the 7xxx series is Transport.

 

[40 deg south]

Kiwipatriot69

My suggestion was for an aircraft class that supports the NZDF in some of its more mundane taskings. Flying 4000 km to Antartica requires a different more capable aircraft. Transport of passengers and freight around NZ on a daily basis plus response to the island states of the South Pacific would be able to be handled by this aircraft. Longer ranges and higher cargo weights dictates a need for an aircraft in the A400 and C17 range and these require massive investments for few frames. Numbers have an advantage all to itself. Having the ability to fly multiple sorties at one time with reduced loads allows a more cost effective use of assets. My personal preference would have been a 3 ship fleet of C17 for NZ but this is unlikely without used frames from USAF.

In retrospect how were the Andovers employed alongside the Herc's? Does this role not still exist within the NZDF?

Nova

My understanding (as a civilian) is that the Andovers were used primarily in logistics and training roles within NZ. Given the downsizing of NZ forces since the 1980s/1990s the demand has probably reduced for this role. But not reduced to zero.
They were also used in humanitarian missions in the Pacific, to do short-haul deliveries of aid supplies delivered by ship or Hercules.
The Andovers also served further afield, providing logistics support to a UN mission in Somalia in the early 1990s.

Their main handicap in NZ service was very limited range - not helpful when based on an island at the far end of the world!

If NZ does re-establish a light transport capability, the C-295 vs. C-27J question will be a hard one.The C-27J has more speed, lifting capacity and range with payload. But it is a lot more expensive. The C-295 meanwhile has better length (good for personnel), endurance and is significantly cheaper to buy and run. And has a larger customer base, to support enhancements/ upgrades.

For a service that already has C-130J's, the commonality advantages (engines, cockpit) might make the higher price tag of the C-27J worthwhile. My feeling is that NZ will get a very small number of heavy lifters (A400 or C-17, if some used ones can be released from USAF stocks) plus a light lifter. If we end up with a medium lifter (C-130J) then I'm not sure their is a role for either C-27J or C-295. Or, at least, I'm not sure the benefits would justify the cost of having another type in service.

Hopefully the Defence Capability Plan promised for later this year will find a path through this maze.

 

[ngatimozart]

I was thinking more of the flight, handling and loggie side of the equation at the cold(er) end of the trip

Yep, me too. A NZDF operate at McMurdo as well. Sorry, I forgot that. I am quite sure that there has been plenty of opportunity for RNZAF and NZDF personnel to officially (and unofficially) observe the C17s flight and ground handling parameters in the cold environment down at the ice quite regularly, because of the Antarctic support agreement between NZ & US. The USAF have now started regular winter flights into Pegasus Field using C17s which means regular fresh fruit & veg plus regular movement of stores and personnel. There is also a medevac underway at present from Amundsen-Scott at the Pole using a couple of Canadian twin Otter aircraft via the Antarctic Peninsula.

 

[Rob c]

Kiwipatriot69

My suggestion was for an aircraft class that supports the NZDF in some of its more mundane taskings. Flying 4000 km to Antartica requires a different more capable aircraft. Transport of passengers and freight around NZ on a daily basis plus response to the island states of the South Pacific would be able to be handled by this aircraft. Longer ranges and higher cargo weights dictates a need for an aircraft in the A400 and C17 range and these require massive investments for few frames. Numbers have an advantage all to itself. Having the ability to fly multiple sorties at one time with reduced loads allows a more cost effective use of assets. My personal preference would have been a 3 ship fleet of C17 for NZ but this is unlikely without used frames from USAF.

In retrospect how were the Andovers employed alongside the Herc's? Does this role not still exist within the NZDF?

The Andovers were used as multi engine trainers, vip transport and light tactical transports. At times they also did some inshore patrol work. they had a very good STOL ability which was far better than they looked capable of achieving. I once flew in one from Ohakea to Butterworth in Malasia, A very interesting flight due to the large number of stops. We arrived on the fourth day due to a breakdown. We should also remember that when the Herk's were purchased they were our strategic transports with the Freighters and the Dac's being the tactical transports. I personally would not like to see our C130H's replaced with J models as they would only offer a marginal improvement in performance and the aircraft it self is mainly tarted up 60 year old technology. I think a minimum for a replacement should be the ability to transport a LAV across to Australia or Fiji. A mix of smaller and larger transports would give greater flexibility.

 

[Navor86]

Hello,
I got a question regarding the procurement of helicopters for the NZDF.
With the more common occurence of natural disasteres in the region, did the NZDF actually push for more NH90 or A109?
From what I have have seen here in Germany, helicopters are one of the most valuable assets for disaster relief. And an argument like disaster relief, should actually make it easier for the Air Force to sell this idea to the goverment.
(I´m not sure wheter other goverment agencies in NZ actually have meaningful helo assets of their own.)

 

[40 deg south]

Hello,
I got a question regarding the procurement of helicopters for the NZDF.
With the more common occurence of natural disasteres in the region, did the NZDF actually push for more NH90 or A109?
From what I have have seen here in Germany, helicopters are one of the most valuable assets for disaster relief. And an argument like disaster relief, should actually make it easier for the Air Force to sell this idea to the goverment.
(I´m not sure wheter other goverment agencies in NZ actually have meaningful helo assets of their own.)

Greetings Navor

I'm not an expert, but I will try to answer your question. As far as I know, NZ Police operate a single helicopter based in Auckland (the largest city), which also occasionally travels to other regions.

Air support ‘Eagle’ unit | New Zealand Police

The Police also regularly use contracted civilian helicopters for Search and Rescue and accident recovery missions.

Medical emergencies and evacuations are normally managed by a range of community trusts - which are basically local charities dedicated to providing medical helicopter services within a definer region. They are funded by public donations and commercial sponsorship. Two examples:

Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust

Canterbury West Coast Air Rescue Trust Westpac Rescue Helicopter Christchurch Greymouth New Zealand

Finally, military helicopters are regularly used in search and rescue operations, or where they provide a capability (e.g. range, heavy lift) not readily available on the civilian market.

New Zealand has a large number of helicopters for the size of the population, most of which are used in the major agriculture, forestry and tourism industries.The NZ government generally prefers, for cost reasons, to use these civilian helicopters where feasible instead of building up a large fleet of government-owned helicopters.

The potential for military helicopters to be used in civilian emergencies/disaster relief (in NZ and overseas) is certainly something RNZAF highlights in its publicity
material for the general public, and I expect the same message is conveyed to politicians in briefings.

It will be interesting to see if the 20156 Defence Capability Plan suggests an increase in NH-90 or AW109 numbers. I suspect availability of trained crew and technicians might be as big a limiting factor as availability of dollars.

 

[40 deg south]

http://airforce.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/airforce-news/afn181.pdf

Latest Air Force news is out. Interesting overview of AW109 introduction to service.

Also confirms that Malaysian students are using the simulator in larger numbers than I had suspected.

Given the Philippines is now introducing AW109s as well, I wonder if they are another potential customer?

 

[kiwipatriot69]

I merely suggested the C130J-30. I believe the larger version, as prior questions here informed me. A China or Russia plane buy is unadvisable due to commonality, supply chain, reliability issues. The Japanese C2 is only just in circulation with vague details about them regarding overseas sales if any at all.

Embraer KC-390? It is still going through trails before entry into service. The A400? Still problematic with delivery, faults. C295? While OK for short haul, it wont cover the load capabilities that our Hercs easily do, during say the recent US overseas training Ex, or HADR ops we have done recently. Unless you want twice as many numbers, and get the extra crew required.

Which given the time frame we have until the fleet is retired, is it wise to gamble on above, or go for a commonality of aircraft like C27,C130J-30, C17 mix that we can actually get our hands on, have no such issues with, and our closest allies use?

Nothing wrong at all with the gist of the post, but keep an eye on the writing basics such as spelling, grammar, punctuation and syntax. Posts need to be understandable. The above post was originally a bit rough in that regard. Cheers MrC

 

[RegR]

Greetings Navor

I'm not an expert, but I will try to answer your question. As far as I know, NZ Police operate a single helicopter based in Auckland (the largest city), which also occasionally travels to other regions.

Air support ‘Eagle’ unit | New Zealand Police

The Police also regularly use contracted civilian helicopters for Search and Rescue and accident recovery missions.

Medical emergencies and evacuations are normally managed by a range of community trusts - which are basically local charities dedicated to providing medical helicopter services within a definer region. They are funded by public donations and commercial sponsorship. Two examples:

Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust

Canterbury West Coast Air Rescue Trust Westpac Rescue Helicopter Christchurch Greymouth New Zealand

Finally, military helicopters are regularly used in search and rescue operations, or where they provide a capability (e.g. range, heavy lift) not readily available on the civilian market.

New Zealand has a large number of helicopters for the size of the population, most of which are used in the major agriculture, forestry and tourism industries.The NZ government generally prefers, for cost reasons, to use these civilian helicopters where feasible instead of building up a large fleet of government-owned helicopters.

The potential for military helicopters to be used in civilian emergencies/disaster relief (in NZ and overseas) is certainly something RNZAF highlights in its publicity
material for the general public, and I expect the same message is conveyed to politicians in briefings.

It will be interesting to see if the 20156 Defence Capability Plan suggests an increase in NH-90 or AW109 numbers. I suspect availability of trained crew and technicians might be as big a limiting factor as availability of dollars.

Agreed 40 I think NZ is pretty well covered for helo support, especially numbers wise from a civilian perspective. The NH90s more provide improved lift and A109s response for the smaller jobs. Yes each region has a dedicated rescue service with a primary machine and usually back up. Also the police have 2 helos in police colours (squirell models leased from civi company C/W pilots) based at the same heliport in AK as the westpac trust rescue helos to better ensure availability and I believe they also have another smaller frame that they use for drug ops etc (hughes 500?)

As for region I think the response we sent to Fiji in the wake (literally) of cyclone winston was a pretty descent effort (2 90s and 2 sprites) in terms of helo support and feel this could be the new base model for HADR type ops at least. Still left us adequate numbers on the homefront and considering the sprites were from the legacy fleet a feat in itself.

 

[RegR]

I merely suggested the C130J-30. I believe the larger version, as prior questions here informed me. A China or Russia plane buy is unadvisable due to commonality, supply chain, reliability issues. The Japanese C2 is only just in circulation with vague details about them regarding overseas sales if any at all.

Embraer KC-390? It is still going through trails before entry into service. The A400? Still problematic with delivery, faults. C295? While OK for short haul, it wont cover the load capabilities that our Hercs easily do, during say the recent US overseas training Ex, or HADR ops we have done recently. Unless you want twice as many numbers, and get the extra crew required.

Which given the time frame we have until the fleet is retired, is it wise to gamble on above, or go for a commonality of aircraft like C27,C130J-30, C17 mix that we can actually get our hands on, have no such issues with, and our closest allies use?

Nothing wrong at all with the gist of the post, but keep an eye on the writing basics such as spelling, grammar, punctuation and syntax. Posts need to be understandable. The above post was originally a bit rough in that regard. Cheers MrC

Whilst the C130J-30s are longer they still have the same sized cabin so still does not solve our outsize/weight cargo issue in regards to organic movement of NZLAV, NH90 etc. Still definately an improvement over the Hs in many ways just not enough in the main identified problem areas for my liking but as you say our options are far from wide without some kind of issue anyway be that time, availability or maturaty.

The C295 type is not to replace our C130 fleet (or future fleet) but merely to supplement it as we have had many instances of underutilisation of our current fleet but because C130s are our only transport it's automatically them regardless (or a B757), also these smaller tasks still use hours, burn fuel, require maintainence etc so a more suited AC would alleviate this extending their lives in the process, something I can see us requiring at this stage. Possibly be easier to consider them 2 different projects with similar but differrent outputs, kind of like a frigate and a OPV in terms of seperation and role.

 

[ngatimozart]

http://airforce.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/airforce-news/afn181.pdf

Latest Air Force news is out. Interesting overview of AW109 introduction to service.

Also confirms that Malaysian students are using the simulator in larger numbers than I had suspected.

Given the Philippines is now introducing AW109s as well, I wonder if they are another potential customer?

Just to expand on the article, the simulator at Ohakea is one of only two AW109 simulators worldwide with the other one being in Italy. If they acquire the NH90 simulator that a RFI has been issued for, then that will be a good training set-up at Ohakea. It means not having to send aircrew to France for simulator time.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Just to expand on the article, the simulator at Ohakea is one of only two AW109 simulators worldwide with the other one being in Italy. If they acquire the NH90 simulator that a RFI has been issued for, then that will be a good training set-up at Ohakea. It means not having to send aircrew to France for simulator time.

With these simulators being available to foreign governments for training does the revenue go back to Treasury or does the NZDF get these funds to help offset their own training costs? Very intelligent move on the NZ government to acquire such unique capabilities.

 

[ngatimozart]

With these simulators being available to foreign governments for training does the revenue go back to Treasury or does the NZDF get these funds to help offset their own training costs? Very intelligent move on the NZ government to acquire such unique capabilities.

I am not sure. I would hope that the revenue goes back to NZDF because the govt and public service philosophy since the late 1980s is a very much business orientated methodology with similar corporate expectations. For example NZDF has a contract with the Minister to provide its expertise and services to the crown.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

I am not sure. I would hope that the revenue goes back to NZDF because the govt and public service philosophy since the late 1980s is a very much business orientated methodology with similar corporate expectations. For example NZDF has a contract with the Minister to provide its expertise and services to the crown.

I would have thought that to be unquestionably the responsibility of the NZDF as the subject matter experts employed by the state. That's an odd arrangement to have a contract written that states that contractual obligation.

So with the only other AW109 simulator are there opportunities to rent time on the simulator to civilian agencies and students as well or is there not enough available time after NZDF students and foreign government student obligations.

Ngati in your opinion is it probable that given so few airframes and a relatively low frequency of use that the B757 work could be farmed out to contractor flights instead of a dedicated RNZAF capability? This would theoretically then make more funds available for the tactical and strategic replacement aircraft.

 

[MrConservative]

Ngati in your opinion is it probable that given so few airframes and a relatively low frequency of use that the B757 work could be farmed out to contractor flights instead of a dedicated RNZAF capability? This would theoretically then make more funds available for the tactical and strategic replacement aircraft.

No. Because its true operational cost is too expensive and there are other commercial charter options available such as Vincent Aviation that are far cheaper that would not impact on 40 Sqd ops.

 

[MrConservative]

I would have thought that to be unquestionably the responsibility of the NZDF as the subject matter experts employed by the state. That's an odd arrangement to have a contract written that states that contractual obligation.

Part 3 of the Defence Act 1990 provides the oversight. It is the principal relationship legislative power concerning advice and obligation to the Crown.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

No worries. Thanks MrC, in regards to editing. On the topic of 757 combi's we operate, is the VIP role firmly embedded as part of RNZAF duties, or can it be chartered out, freeing up the need for dedicated Military Transport only?

 

[t68]

No worries. Thanks MrC, in regards to editing. On the topic of 757 combi's we operate, is the VIP role firmly embedded as part of RNZAF duties, or can it be chartered out, freeing up the need for dedicated Military Transport only?

I think he referred to this a couple of posts ago, mainly had to do with cost implications and other cheaper alternatives than the RNZAF flight

 

[MrConservative]

No worries. Thanks MrC, in regards to editing. On the topic of 757 combi's we operate, is the VIP role firmly embedded as part of RNZAF duties, or can it be chartered out, freeing up the need for dedicated Military Transport only?

The VIP aspect was seen as an area within the VfM context which could have aspects of it chartered out. It is about 10% of its traditional annual allocation. However the other 90% is very much a keystone role within the NZDF.

Note the PM went to Fiji in a C-130H last week. The B757's are not always available for employment in the VIP role.

One of the things about the military doing VIP stuff is that their is that the NZ Govt controls the whole dimension of it. They for example cannot control airport workers going on strike which stranded Helen Clark when she flew on an international flight to visit John Howard. Commercial charters also cannot be arranged instantaneously aw well. Also at the HoS level - security implications are a factor when their is a non state actor involved in the VIP transport scene.

 

[htbrst]

Note the PM went to Fiji in a C-130H last week. The B757's are not always available for employment in the VIP role.

To be fair the 757, the runway length at Suva was a bit on the short side for the 757 to be able to take off again at least with a fuel load to get to NZ - hence the C-130 was taken much to the disappointment of the media contingent

Prime Minister John Key, his toilet and the Air Force Hercules | Stuff.co.nz

Even if you're the Prime Minister of New Zealand, don't expect a door on the toilet when you're flying in this work horse.