Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
How did Navantia manage with the Aegis ships they built for the Spanish Armada?
They didn't, back in 2012 we had a number of key Navantia personnel from the F-105 build and when asked straight out if they had encountered the problems we were they admitted they had but hadn't informed us. Basically we had to discover every problem for ourselves, even though the selected design had been the "existing" proven option that was to be built to print with minimal requirement for local design and engineering work.

The first warning sign I recall was before steel was cut on ship one, technical officers, designers and engineers assigned to validating design elements such as equipment removal routes were finding the provided design data did not comply. There were numerous examples of elements of the design that literally did not work and when Navantia were approached about them it was usually discovered that the Navantia production team had developed a compromise work around but that this had not been fed back into the design baseline. The result of this was problems encountered on F-101 were worked around on the next three ships but then , because they had been forgotten / new production teams were not aware of them, they impacted on F-105 and Hobart.

There is a myth that BAE had no such issues with the LHDs when in truth Canberra and Adelaide followed JCI almost immediately thus benefiting from lessons learned on a hot project, but even though delivered to Williamstown on cost and schedule, problems with the local fabrication of the island blocks were remarkably similar to those encountered with the AWD blocks and in the end both shops were late and delivered with multiple defects.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Surely the RAN would have noticed this when the Alvaro de Bazan visited Sydney ten, or so, years ago.
They did, the RAN's preferred option was the "Baby Burke", however the government at the time thought otherwise.
 

Oberon

Member
Yes, I recall that from this forum many years ago. It was all go for and Gibbs and Cox designed Burke until one day the Alvaro de Brazon sailed into Sydney harbour.
 

hairyman

Active Member
If the Spanish ship is now considered too small, why is it in the final three for consideration for the Anzac replacement? Are the Italian Fremm and the Type 26 any bigger?
 

protoplasm

Active Member
If the Spanish ship is now considered too small, why is it in the final three for consideration for the Anzac replacement? Are the Italian Fremm and the Type 26 any bigger?
Not really any bigger, we may well end up discovering during the life of these vessels that they are just not big enough for the roles we want them to be fulfilling in 20 years time. There is a case for inserting significant growth margins in at the design phase to attempt to make future upgrades easier.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If the Spanish ship is now considered too small, why is it in the final three for consideration for the Anzac replacement? Are the Italian Fremm and the Type 26 any bigger?
For starters it isn't being bought as an AWD, and neither the T26 nor the FREMM are sold as AWDs.

More space will pretty much always be appreciated of course, but try selling the need for an 8000 tonne (or whatever) frigate to the Australian public at a time when most *taxpayers* can't see a need for anything bigger or more expensive than a rowboat and see how long your government lasts.

oldsig
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not really any bigger, we may well end up discovering during the life of these vessels that they are just not big enough for the roles we want them to be fulfilling in 20 years time. There is a case for inserting significant growth margins in at the design phase to attempt to make future upgrades easier.
If the Type 26 is anything like its preposed to be, it would be a size larger than the others, its only 40cm narrower and 2.4m shorter than a Type 45. Particularly in width compared to the other designs, which is going to be a key factor in things like stability and fitting things like radar. It also has some serious and modern power generation capability, with the two MT30's (same as in Zumwalt destroyers, QE carriers) and more power generation than a type 45. On paper it looks quite attractive. Commonality with the RN is a plus, other navies are interested too.

However, given the current situation we need something right now. Another 3 F-105's based ships, could be built quickly and cheaply with very little risk.
 

r3mu511

New Member
Those Anzac replacements will also be using the 2nd-gen ceafar/ceamount rather than the spy1d(v) of the AWD. And as an anzac follow-on, would it only need to support the essm/sm2-blk3 engagement envelope, as opposed to supporting sm2-blk4/sm6 like the spy1?

If just the former (ie. lower spec performance) is required, then the ceafar-2 might not need to be of the same performance capability as the spy1. So it could possibly use smaller sized arrays than what it would need if it were required to support the higher performance envelope (given the roughly 3/4-th power relationship of aperture area to range perf for active arrays). And hopefully as a lower-perf, smaller active array, it might be "less dense" of a fit than the waveguide utilizing passive array spy1.

So perhaps, though spy1d(v) is a "tight fit" for f-100 based hulls, ceafar-2 might be an easier fit wrt the anzac replacement.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It also has some serious and modern power generation capability, with the two MT30's (same as in Zumwalt destroyers, QE carriers) and more power generation than a type 45.
I believe the Type 26 has 1 MT30 (36-42 Mw) and 4 MTU diesels (3 Mw each) versus the Type 45's 2 WR-21 turbines (21 Mw each) and two Warstila diesels (2 Mw each) so the Type 26 does indeed have more power and displaces 1000 tons less than a Type 45.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Those Anzac replacements will also be using the 2nd-gen ceafar/ceamount rather than the spy1d(v) of the AWD. And as an anzac follow-on, would it only need to support the essm/sm2-blk3 engagement envelope, as opposed to supporting sm2-blk4/sm6 like the spy1?

If just the former (ie. lower spec performance) is required, then the ceafar-2 might not need to be of the same performance capability as the spy1. So it could possibly use smaller sized arrays than what it would need if it were required to support the higher performance envelope (given the roughly 3/4-th power relationship of aperture area to range perf for active arrays). And hopefully as a lower-perf, smaller active array, it might be "less dense" of a fit than the waveguide utilizing passive array spy1.

So perhaps, though spy1d(v) is a "tight fit" for f-100 based hulls, ceafar-2 might be an easier fit wrt the anzac replacement.
Given the Defence Secretary publicly lambasting the RAN for 'aiming too high' capability-wise on the future frigates, I think it is fairly safe to say that SM-6 is planned for operation from this class and as a complete replacement for all SM-2 variants in-service...
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I believe the Type 26 has 1 MT30 (36-42 Mw) and 4 MTU diesels (3 Mw each) versus the Type 45's 2 WR-21 turbines (21 Mw each) and two Warstila diesels (2 Mw each) so the Type 26 does indeed have more power and displaces 1000 tons less than a Type 45.
Yes, I believe your correct, sorry 1x MT30. I do wonder if they will try and adapt the Type 26 propulsion into the type 45. It would seem to be the kind of approach that may solve the shortage of diesels for the hotel load.

I would assume the operating cost of having just 1 large GT is superior to having 2 as used in many frigates or the 4 GT's used in Burke based designs.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Given the Defence Secretary publicly lambasting the RAN for 'aiming too high' capability-wise on the future frigates, I think it is fairly safe to say that SM-6 is planned for operation from this class and as a complete replacement for all SM-2 variants in-service...
A complete replacement? Sounds pricey. Not saying you're wrong, but I thought even the USN were using SM6 to augment the SM2 rather than replace it outright...
 
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hairyman

Active Member
I dont know the difference in the performance of the SM-2 and the SM-6, but having read where a SM-2 missile is just under $700.000 per missile and the SM-6 is about $4'000'000 per missile at this stage, the SM-6 would want to be very good.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yes, I believe your correct, sorry 1x MT30. I do wonder if they will try and adapt the Type 26 propulsion into the type 45. It would seem to be the kind of approach that may solve the shortage of diesels for the hotel load.

I would assume the operating cost of having just 1 large GT is superior to having 2 as used in many frigates or the 4 GT's used in Burke based designs.
I guess the RN will have decide how much more diesel electric generation is required for the Type 45. Removing the turbines is not an option so the diesels will be replaced, not sure the 4 MTUs being used in the Type 26 would fit in the Type 45.
Putting the Type 45 propulsion problems in perspective | Save the Royal Navy
 

r3mu511

New Member
Given the Defence Secretary publicly lambasting the RAN for 'aiming too high' capability-wise on the future frigates, I think it is fairly safe to say that SM-6 is planned for operation from this class and as a complete replacement for all SM-2 variants in-service...
That would then mean strike length mk41 for the anzac replacements. Ouch, talk about overlap in aaw capability w/ the AWD. In fact while they still have sm2-blk3/-blk4 to use up, the ceafar-2 anzac replacements will probably offer better terminal engagement bandwidth w/ it's ICWI-capable agile beam ceamount, as compared to the AWD w/ it's terminal phase bandwidth limited by it's slaved mechanically steered illuminators.

I dont know the difference in the performance of the SM-2 and the SM-6, but having read where a SM-2 missile is just under $700.000 per missile and the SM-6 is about $4'000'000 per missile at this stage, the SM-6 would want to be very good.
Was that price for sm-2 for the blk-3a/b or blk-4 variant? Big perf envelope diff b/w the two (90nm vs. 200nm per: The US Navy -- Fact File: Standard Missile) . Also which FY were those two prices taken from?

As for what sm-6 has over sm2-blk4, it adds an active seeker mode, supports bmd terminal intercept (whereas sm2-blk4 has to be modified for this), and will support GPS-assisted anti-surface mode (see: https://news.usni.org/2016/02/04/se...nic-anti-ship-missile-for-cruisers-destroyers), this is in contrast to the sm2's surface rf horizon limitation due to the use of terminal illumination (though the shorter range -blk3b did offer IR passive homing, though not sure if this was used for surface mode).
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I dont know the difference in the performance of the SM-2 and the SM-6, but having read where a SM-2 missile is just under $700.000 per missile and the SM-6 is about $4'000'000 per missile at this stage, the SM-6 would want to be very good.
SM-6 was in LRIP until last year and only 180 odd missiles in total have been delivered...

In any case there is a wide spectrum of capability differences between 'SM-2' (considering all the various blocks) and SM-6, so you need to compare apples to (at least close) apples.

We are buying 80x SM-2 Block IIIB for US $301m afterall, which comes in at just a tad above $700k per round...
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A complete replacement? Sounds pricey. Not saying you're wrong, but I thought even the USN were using SM6 to augment the SM2 rather than replace it outright...
Eventually... Won't happen overnight, but once Australia purchases SM-6, I find it highly unlikely we will further purchase SM-2...
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That would then mean strike length mk41 for the anzac replacements.
My memory is really poor, but I'm sure that somewhere (DWP??) I'd read that the ANZAC replacements were intended to include capacity for strike length missiles - for stand off strike - so having them would be necessary anyway

oldsig
 
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