NZDF General discussion thread

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Some defence white paper related polemics starting to appear from senior journos this week:

Off the radar | The Spectator

When will it land? | Politik

I wonder what the hold-up is with releasing the public submissions and the expert panel report. Surely there is nothing to stop that being done? Aussies released their documents months before the final white paper came out.
Karl du Fresne wrote a good article. I wonder if the MSM here would pick it up? I to wonder what the hold up has been. Also I read somewhere a whiles back that Defence and Treasury had reached an agreement on expenditure.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Yes he did spears to be one of the better one floating around, also has a small section on what most here have been saying for quite sometime,

China and India fought a limited border war in 1962, and ever since, India has been preparing for Round Two. “They want a rematch.” India has 10 fully armed divisions along the mountainous border and claims People’s Liberation Army patrols have made 300 incursions this year.

Not only is there disputed territory between the two countries, but their relationship could be strained as competition for water intensifies due to climate change, population growth (India’s population is likely to surpass China’s by 2040) and demand for animal protein to feed an increasingly affluent society. China is secretively building dams on its side of the Himalayas that will divert water from India, Beath said. “This could, if mishandled, lead to a major war.”

Could New Zealand be affected? Yes, because vital trade routes would be threatened and New Zealand would be under pressure to join a naval task force to keep sea lanes open.
Fighting talk - New Zealand Listener


Also there seems to a book released in NZ called "Title: Defenceless New Zealand : Correcting New Zealand's Disgraceful Failure to Provide for its Own Defence" written by Chris Salt

Have been thinking of buy it, anyone read it and what is Chris Salt reputation like on the subject?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes he did spears to be one of the better one floating around, also has a small section on what most here have been saying for quite sometime,



Fighting talk - New Zealand Listener


Also there seems to a book released in NZ called "Title: Defenceless New Zealand : Correcting New Zealand's Disgraceful Failure to Provide for its Own Defence" written by Chris Salt

Have been thinking of buy it, anyone read it and what is Chris Salt reputation like on the subject?
Good on him for writing a book on the topic I say and he is beholden to no one but himself. I see that he has Masters in Public Policy and is a former DI and Reservist. So he is worth a read in my view.
 

chis73

Active Member
Also there seems to a book released in NZ called "Title: Defenceless New Zealand : Correcting New Zealand's Disgraceful Failure to Provide for its Own Defence" written by Chris Salt

Have been thinking of buy it, anyone read it and what is Chris Salt reputation like on the subject?
I've only had a quick look through it for an hour or two, so take what I say with a large grain of salt (ooh, bad pun). It's a difficult book to locate without buying it, I'm not sure if many libraries have it. I thought he did a reasonable job on describing the problems, but I couldn't agree with some of the solutions he proposes. IIRC, these were very land-centric, and based on resisting a physical invasion of NZ territory. I would also commend him for the effort. As far as it goes, compared to some of the other self-published amateur material around (I'm thinking of people like Robert Miles who produced several pamphlets during the frigate debates of the 1980's), it's remarkably coherent.

Some of the PhD & Masters theses around are probably more worth the time to read. Some of the books from Victoria University's Centre for Strategic Studies alumni (link) still hold up pretty well (many of these are really conference proceedings from the 1990s), I would recommend particularly Peter Cozens' Maritime Nation, James Rolfe's Armed Forces of New Zealand (1999, getting a bit dated), and Peter Greener's thesis.

Someone at University of Auckland did a thesis on Project Protector that I would love to read. Anyone seen that by chance? It doesn't seem to be on-line.

To add to the articles linked-to in my last post, I should have also included this blog post from a Kiwi based in Japan. Looking forward to part 2.

http://think.iafor.org/new-zealands-2016-defence-white-paper/
 
Last edited:

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
It would seem if media reports on poaching and fishing qouta stats are to believed, our country has been failing to protect our natural resources for some decades, doesnt help when we have 2 of our 'protector fleet' just sitting around...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
It would seem if media reports on poaching and fishing qouta stats are to believed, our country has been failing to protect our natural resources for some decades, doesnt help when we have 2 of our 'protector fleet' just sitting around...
I believe part of the rationale behind the funding and purchase of Project Protector, is that the gov't of the day finally realized that with all the cutbacks done to the RNZN, that too little patrolling of even the EEZ was being done. There just was not enough resources to cover all the patrol areas needed. IMO, there still is not enough resources.

As for two of the IPV's being tied up... I do not think they would make much difference. While on the RNZN page, the IPV's are now listed as patrolling out to 200 n miles (EEZ limit), the scope of the project for them was within 24 n miles. 200 n miles is also not exactly "inshore". Basically the close stuff I doubt is really where significant illegal fishing and/or dumping occurs, since that could be spotted by people, vessels, or aircraft operating on or from land.

In the end, while I do think the Protector fleet was better than nothing, I also feel it was largely money ill-spent.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I believe part of the rationale behind the funding and purchase of Project Protector, is that the gov't of the day finally realized that with all the cutbacks done to the RNZN, that too little patrolling of even the EEZ was being done. There just was not enough resources to cover all the patrol areas needed. IMO, there still is not enough resources.

As for two of the IPV's being tied up... I do not think they would make much difference. While on the RNZN page, the IPV's are now listed as patrolling out to 200 n miles (EEZ limit), the scope of the project for them was within 24 n miles. 200 n miles is also not exactly "inshore". Basically the close stuff I doubt is really where significant illegal fishing and/or dumping occurs, since that could be spotted by people, vessels, or aircraft operating on or from land.

In the end, while I do think the Protector fleet was better than nothing, I also feel it was largely money ill-spent.
But isn't that the portion of monitoring, protection and enforcement that the IPVs are designed to conduct? It is not just international vessels we need to patrol but also our own local fishing fleets and I would assume they go out to sea past 24 nm and are not much (if at all) larger than our current IPVs. 24 or 200 either way needs some form of patrolling regardless of level of offending otherwise it would seem an easier option and therefore be done alot more.

I still do not think it is merely a case of unsuitability but still a mix of manning and funnding (as in lack of both) as if the current levels of patrolling are to be believed we need more vessels to cover area not less to cover distance. If we had enough crews then all ships would still set sail at least some of the time otherwise we would be doubleing up on on the remaining IPV thus their hours should be increased but the hours are still down even for them.

Ideally we should be aqquiring the extra OPV on top of the current fleet if it is deemed we need more patrolling as either way the patrols those 2 idle IPVs were supposed to do still need doing. Just because we stop doing patrols does not mean the requirement is not there anymore, it just means we are not doing them and you can bet it's not for efficiency reasons. If the govt was truely serious about the adequate patrolling of our EEZ then it should be funded and equipped adequately, at all levels, types and ranges including even the original 24nm as surely infringements still occur in this range. Just because we now venture south alot more and into the islands more with the protector fleet should not be at the expense of locals hours but on top of, robbing peter to pay for paul should not be a factor if they both still have a job.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
But isn't that the portion of monitoring, protection and enforcement that the IPVs are designed to conduct? It is not just international vessels we need to patrol but also our own local fishing fleets and I would assume they go out to sea past 24 nm and are not much (if at all) larger than our current IPVs. 24 or 200 either way needs some form of patrolling regardless of level of offending otherwise it would seem an easier option and therefore be done alot more.

I still do not think it is merely a case of unsuitability but still a mix of manning and funnding (as in lack of both) as if the current levels of patrolling are to be believed we need more vessels to cover area not less to cover distance. If we had enough crews then all ships would still set sail at least some of the time otherwise we would be doubleing up on on the remaining IPV thus their hours should be increased but the hours are still down even for them.

Ideally we should be aqquiring the extra OPV on top of the current fleet if it is deemed we need more patrolling as either way the patrols those 2 idle IPVs were supposed to do still need doing. Just because we stop doing patrols does not mean the requirement is not there anymore, it just means we are not doing them and you can bet it's not for efficiency reasons. If the govt was truely serious about the adequate patrolling of our EEZ then it should be funded and equipped adequately, at all levels, types and ranges including even the original 24nm as surely infringements still occur in this range. Just because we now venture south alot more and into the islands more with the protector fleet should not be at the expense of locals hours but on top of, robbing peter to pay for paul should not be a factor if they both still have a job.
There are a few key points which IMO are inarguable. The first is that the RNZN has not been properly resourced in a generation. One of the unfortunate follow-on effects of that, is that the NZDF has been forced to rob Peter to pay Paul, in order to acquire, or in some cases, maintain a capability. It becomes a question of which capabilities have a greater impact, a higher priority, or a lower cost.

One of the other points which I consider inarguable, is that the assigned mission for the IPV's has been changed from when the design was commissioned as part of Project Protector. A follow-on question for that, is whether the IPV design is really appropriate for extended operations in the seas around NZ while far from shore. I suspect that while the vessel might be fine, the crew would not be, due to sea state and other conditions.

Another related follow-on question is why the change in vessel role? I certainly do not know, but I suspect it was because Gov't deemed patrols/intercepts conducted further out of greater impact or higher priority than those done inshore. If the goal is to stop illegal foreign fishing vessels, then I would suspect those would not be operating all that close to shore. Also for local fishing vessels, those can be handling by land-based agents, since the vessel would need to land their catch at some point.

Two final thoughts: As I understand it, NZ has gotten away from measuring patrolling in sea-days, since patrols are supposed to be more queued or vectored by other assets, (a la the P-3K2's). Which I suspect have been observing more suspicious vessels away from the NZ coast, as opposed to either just over the horizon or within sight of land. Side note; the sea-day expectation for the IPV seems to have been unrealistic IMO. 290 days out of the year, means nearly 80% at sea. Quite apart from being potentially hard on a small crew, that would only leave about 20% of the time for training, maintenance, etc. I cannot imagine that there are sufficient Customs and Fisheries officers that one would be aboard each IPV 290 days out of the year.

My second thought here is that the specifications for the IPV's at least, seems to have been largely influenced by Customs and/or Fisheries. While I do think a whole of gov't approach can be good, in that non-Defence agencies can gain benefits from access to Defence assets, it can also be take too far IMO. When the primary owner/user of an asset is selecting something which is suitable for another department, but not particularly suited to their primary role/mission, then the asset selection becomes questionable. A vessel design with the expectation that 1 in 6 crew aboard are not Navy sounds more to me like a vessel paid for, owned by, and crewed/operated by Navy for the benefit of other departments. If those other departments have a legitimate need for an asset like an IPV, why do those departments not seek to get the funding to acquire and sustain/operate one?
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
There are a few key points which IMO are inarguable. The first is that the RNZN has not been properly resourced in a generation. One of the unfortunate follow-on effects of that, is that the NZDF has been forced to rob Peter to pay Paul, in order to acquire, or in some cases, maintain a capability. It becomes a question of which capabilities have a greater impact, a higher priority, or a lower cost.

One of the other points which I consider inarguable, is that the assigned mission for the IPV's has been changed from when the design was commissioned as part of Project Protector. A follow-on question for that, is whether the IPV design is really appropriate for extended operations in the seas around NZ while far from shore. I suspect that while the vessel might be fine, the crew would not be, due to sea state and other conditions.

Another related follow-on question is why the change in vessel role? I certainly do not know, but I suspect it was because Gov't deemed patrols/intercepts conducted further out of greater impact or higher priority than those done inshore. If the goal is to stop illegal foreign fishing vessels, then I would suspect those would not be operating all that close to shore. Also for local fishing vessels, those can be handling by land-based agents, since the vessel would need to land their catch at some point.

Two final thoughts: As I understand it, NZ has gotten away from measuring patrolling in sea-days, since patrols are supposed to be more queued or vectored by other assets, (a la the P-3K2's). Which I suspect have been observing more suspicious vessels away from the NZ coast, as opposed to either just over the horizon or within sight of land. Side note; the sea-day expectation for the IPV seems to have been unrealistic IMO. 290 days out of the year, means nearly 80% at sea. Quite apart from being potentially hard on a small crew, that would only leave about 20% of the time for training, maintenance, etc. I cannot imagine that there are sufficient Customs and Fisheries officers that one would be aboard each IPV 290 days out of the year.

My second thought here is that the specifications for the IPV's at least, seems to have been largely influenced by Customs and/or Fisheries. While I do think a whole of gov't approach can be good, in that non-Defence agencies can gain benefits from access to Defence assets, it can also be take too far IMO. When the primary owner/user of an asset is selecting something which is suitable for another department, but not particularly suited to their primary role/mission, then the asset selection becomes questionable. A vessel design with the expectation that 1 in 6 crew aboard are not Navy sounds more to me like a vessel paid for, owned by, and crewed/operated by Navy for the benefit of other departments. If those other departments have a legitimate need for an asset like an IPV, why do those departments not seek to get the funding to acquire and sustain/operate one?
Yes I think we all agree that navy (nzdf in general) is underfunded and under-resourced in certain vital areas resulting in underfunded under-resourced capabilities to match but shifting the goalposts does not nesscessarily solve the issue but merely shifts the problem focus until we come back to it in a few years or next defence report and the circle continues.

Regardless of whether their range has been extended fact remains the original range still exists and even if we get another vessel to cover that further distance I would hope this is not in lieu of the original patrol area (inshore) as again all we are doing is shifting goalposts, improving one area at the expense of another instead of just boosting the deficient area, hence the funding and manning call vs equipment issue. Even if we did trade an OPV for 2 IPV that single vessel would still need to cover the lost patrolling of those 2 (2) vessels along with it's presumed extended limit patrolling therefore are we in fact gaining or again just losing a hull and stretching the burden?

Customs actually put out a report highlighting the fact they were not meeting their 'sea days' in terms of patrolling due to a lack of at sea oppourtunities assumedly aboard naval vessels (as it specifically mentioned them) so I do not think lack of requirement is the cause of idle ships. Customs would have a different set of requirements to say fisheries as well whereas distance from mainland NZ would not really factor in as much as to where they need to intercept vessels.

I think in the case of the IPVs especially that yes they were probably more influenced by the other government agencies and for good reason, in this case they would actually be their main role (supporting government agencies) in and around NZ 'inshore' waters and actually why navy receives this portion of the funding pie ie directed civil agency outputs. Whilst we could just give this funding direct to the particular agencies and let them create their own patrol forces this would no doubt come at a cost in terms of training, infrastructure and operation via duplication whereas navy are seemingly the subject matter experts in this area plus the fact that if navy struggle to maintain crews would civilians fair much better? Navy would just lose this portion of funding and is still easier to apply military assets to civilian use rather than trying to adapt civilian assets to military use should the need arise. I too am skeptical of aqquiring military assetts with a large civilian influence and justification ie air/sea with a antarctica focus at expense, but I do see the logic to a degree and is in fact what adds to their funding, selection and options in some cases (for better and worse)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Yes I think we all agree that navy (nzdf in general) is underfunded and under-resourced in certain vital areas resulting in underfunded under-resourced capabilities to match but shifting the goalposts does not nesscessarily solve the issue but merely shifts the problem focus until we come back to it in a few years or next defence report and the circle continues.

Regardless of whether their range has been extended fact remains the original range still exists and even if we get another vessel to cover that further distance I would hope this is not in lieu of the original patrol area (inshore) as again all we are doing is shifting goalposts, improving one area at the expense of another instead of just boosting the deficient area, hence the funding and manning call vs equipment issue. Even if we did trade an OPV for 2 IPV that single vessel would still need to cover the lost patrolling of those 2 (2) vessels along with it's presumed extended limit patrolling therefore are we in fact gaining or again just losing a hull and stretching the burden?

Customs actually put out a report highlighting the fact they were not meeting their 'sea days' in terms of patrolling due to a lack of at sea oppourtunities assumedly aboard naval vessels (as it specifically mentioned them) so I do not think lack of requirement is the cause of idle ships. Customs would have a different set of requirements to say fisheries as well whereas distance from mainland NZ would not really factor in as much as to where they need to intercept vessels.

I think in the case of the IPVs especially that yes they were probably more influenced by the other government agencies and for good reason, in this case they would actually be their main role (supporting government agencies) in and around NZ 'inshore' waters and actually why navy receives this portion of the funding pie ie directed civil agency outputs. Whilst we could just give this funding direct to the particular agencies and let them create their own patrol forces this would no doubt come at a cost in terms of training, infrastructure and operation via duplication whereas navy are seemingly the subject matter experts in this area plus the fact that if navy struggle to maintain crews would civilians fair much better? Navy would just lose this portion of funding and is still easier to apply military assets to civilian use rather than trying to adapt civilian assets to military use should the need arise. I too am skeptical of aqquiring military assetts with a large civilian influence and justification ie air/sea with a antarctica focus at expense, but I do see the logic to a degree and is in fact what adds to their funding, selection and options in some cases (for better and worse)
On re-reading it, I realized that I had put the RNZN, when I meant the NZDF as a whole. The recent post by 40 DS in the RNZAF thread about ex-servicemen, now contractor doing work for life preservers because there was no one in the service to do the work sort of highlights some of the short-sightedness and IMO cutting defence too deeply.

In a perfect world, the RNZN could keep and operate both the IPV's for their patrol outputs, and have sufficient OPV's for their desired patrol outputs. The present reality is that is not the case.

With that in mind, I would rather the RNZN and NZDF examine the patrol requirements and determine the amount and priorities for the various types of patrolling, and then work to meet the most important ones first. I suspect the NZDF has done so, and determined that offshore patrolling is important and/or has greater impact than inshore patrolling, thus the interest in getting a third OPV. If this is the case, and the resources available are insufficient to fund or sustain both the four IPV's and third OPV, then reducing the number of IPV's is sensible IMO, especially if that permits the presumably more important third OPV.

As for the 'sea day' requirement not being met, IIRC it had or has been determined that directed patrolling is more effective than simple sea days. Especially if the IPV's are operated from the same home port.

As for some funding coming into the RNZN to provide support for other governmental agencies... that is all well and good, but that further muddies the waters in terms of what the actual funding for Defence actually is. I am guestimating here, but I would not be surprised if the operating and payroll costs for an IPV was NZD$2 mil. p.a. If the IPV performs service for or at the behest of Customs and/or Fisheries, then including the Vote Defence line item artificially raises the funding for NZDF operations, since part of it is essentially Customs and/or Fisheries functions being done by the RNZN. Basically it makes it look like the NZDF is getting a larger slice of the pie than it is, while making it look like Fisheries and Customs are receiving a smaller slice than they in fact are. Or some of the figures are being double counted. Come to think of it, it would be interesting to see the budget figures put out at the individual department level, add them together and then compare that to the NZG budget total, as well as revenue.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
We could entertain the idea that the Customs, Maritime Police, Fisheries Protection, Immigration, Bio & Environmental Security and other civilian agency roles are subsumed into a stand alone New Zealand Border Protection Service which would have legal efficacy for our contiguous zone.

Under international law within the declared 24nm contiguous zone, a nation can act to prevent violations of its environmental, fisheries, customs, fiscal, or immigration laws, or to apprehend vessels suspected of violating them. A New Zealand Border Protection Service could focus on the civilian agency work within the contiguous inshore zone and leaving the NZDF focusing on purely outer EEZ, regional and global military and security matters.

Like all things it would have its pro's and con's but so does the current set up which in some ways has forced a number of compromises in the core military role of the NZDF.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
On re-reading it, I realized that I had put the RNZN, when I meant the NZDF as a whole. The recent post by 40 DS in the RNZAF thread about ex-servicemen, now contractor doing work for life preservers because there was no one in the service to do the work sort of highlights some of the short-sightedness and IMO cutting defence too deeply.

In a perfect world, the RNZN could keep and operate both the IPV's for their patrol outputs, and have sufficient OPV's for their desired patrol outputs. The present reality is that is not the case.

With that in mind, I would rather the RNZN and NZDF examine the patrol requirements and determine the amount and priorities for the various types of patrolling, and then work to meet the most important ones first. I suspect the NZDF has done so, and determined that offshore patrolling is important and/or has greater impact than inshore patrolling, thus the interest in getting a third OPV. If this is the case, and the resources available are insufficient to fund or sustain both the four IPV's and third OPV, then reducing the number of IPV's is sensible IMO, especially if that permits the presumably more important third OPV.

As for the 'sea day' requirement not being met, IIRC it had or has been determined that directed patrolling is more effective than simple sea days. Especially if the IPV's are operated from the same home port.

As for some funding coming into the RNZN to provide support for other governmental agencies... that is all well and good, but that further muddies the waters in terms of what the actual funding for Defence actually is. I am guestimating here, but I would not be surprised if the operating and payroll costs for an IPV was NZD$2 mil. p.a. If the IPV performs service for or at the behest of Customs and/or Fisheries, then including the Vote Defence line item artificially raises the funding for NZDF operations, since part of it is essentially Customs and/or Fisheries functions being done by the RNZN. Basically it makes it look like the NZDF is getting a larger slice of the pie than it is, while making it look like Fisheries and Customs are receiving a smaller slice than they in fact are. Or some of the figures are being double counted. Come to think of it, it would be interesting to see the budget figures put out at the individual department level, add them together and then compare that to the NZG budget total, as well as revenue.
Yes agree in a perfect world we would operate both tiers fully ie 4 IPV, 3 OPV concurrently and in their designated patrol areas/roles however funding and manning constraints and limitations force us to prioritise into one capability over another and with OPV offering more roles than IPV the sacrifice is cast, the requirement would/should still be there however we just now have to adjust how it's conducted. Another point that leads me more to a manning issue over anything else is the fact that with the retirement of the Reso without direct replacement seems to me that we in fact do have/had the capacity to operate another OPV within the current budget/fleet org as Reso size and crew were similar to at least our current OPV.

Yes the report read as if customs was pointing out the fact they were not meeting their allocated hours for patrol due to unavailability of naval assets (I took it to mean their naval allocated hours) not including their own assets which are RHIBs and a converted launch in AK.

I guess the other agency funding all comes down to maximising use and not doubling up or having to otherwise re-create rcertain assets at added cost. 3sqn for example has a similar deal for example with the police drug ops every year whereas they are allocated set hours and costed accordingly and they also pick up extra expenses such as accom, food, transport etc. Saves them having to hire civilian equivalent helos or in fact maintain their own. The added benefit is that 3 gets extra training/experience and police get the use of an asset they might not otherwise have access to, win win in a way (for RNZAF anyway).
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
We could entertain the idea that the Customs, Maritime Police, Fisheries Protection, Immigration, Bio & Environmental Security and other civilian agency roles are subsumed into a stand alone New Zealand Border Protection Service which would have legal efficacy for our contiguous zone.

Under international law within the declared 24nm contiguous zone, a nation can act to prevent violations of its environmental, fisheries, customs, fiscal, or immigration laws, or to apprehend vessels suspected of violating them. A New Zealand Border Protection Service could focus on the civilian agency work within the contiguous inshore zone and leaving the NZDF focusing on purely outer EEZ, regional and global military and security matters.

Like all things it would have its pro's and con's but so does the current set up which in some ways has forced a number of compromises in the core military role of the NZDF.
Agree, I would rather see this than the IPVs lost alltogether which is why I don't understand why they don't just return them to the rockies (with a greater agency involvement) and somewhat seperate them from the regulars bar deep maintainence, tech advice etc.

I thought they were going to build more of the q-west vessels (police) as a base class for customs, MPI etc to complement/replace their current vessels and extend their reach somewhat but that build seems to have stopped (think a coastguard vessel was the last) so unsure. This possibly could be because they assumed navy would provide in this region so with the latest announcement builds could possibly resume (if they don't inherit the advanced IPVs).

I guess again it all comes down to adequate funding and equipping to fully gain traction.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
It would seem if media reports on poaching and fishing qouta stats are to believed, our country has been failing to protect our natural resources for some decades, doesnt help when we have 2 of our 'protector fleet' just sitting around...
Just a note in passing - the much-hyped 'expose' on over-fishing has a dramatic claim that vastly more fish have been caught than reported in NZ since 1950. Thinking about it, that's a very odd statement. I haven't yet had time to read the report, but strongly suspect the ratio of known to unknown catch was much higher in the past, with the 80s (when the current quota system was introduced) being notorious for under-reporting..

It always gets my back up when the headline claim is dramatic but irrelevant - the key question is 'How much unreported catch is there NOW?' It seems I'll have to read the report to find out, as none of the media stories have covered this crucial point.
 
Last edited:

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
We could entertain the idea that the Customs, Maritime Police, Fisheries Protection, Immigration, Bio & Environmental Security and other civilian agency roles are subsumed into a stand alone New Zealand Border Protection Service which would have legal efficacy for our contiguous zone.

Under international law within the declared 24nm contiguous zone, a nation can act to prevent violations of its environmental, fisheries, customs, fiscal, or immigration laws, or to apprehend vessels suspected of violating them. A New Zealand Border Protection Service could focus on the civilian agency work within the contiguous inshore zone and leaving the NZDF focusing on purely outer EEZ, regional and global military and security matters.

Like all things it would have its pro's and con's but so does the current set up which in some ways has forced a number of compromises in the core military role of the NZDF.
As a thought exercise, that could be interesting. As mentioned, there could be both benefits to giving such a department or agency such responsibilities, as well as negatives.

One of the issues I tend to have with the whole-of-government approach is that by having the NZDF perform functions in support of (or in some cases in place of) other departments or agencies, it further muddies the waters in terms of what resources are available or expended in support of the NZDF core mission. Which as I have already brought up more than once, are already muddied by the Capital Charge and funding for Veterans.

Having looked through the Vote Defence, Customs, Conservation, and Primary Industries and Food Safety 2015/2016 budgets, I did find a figure of just under NZD$39 mil. for
Fisheries Enforcement and Monitoring
This category is limited to informing, assisting, directing and enforcing adherence to New Zealand fisheries laws, and ministerial servicing.
Nothing however, to indicate how much if any of the operating costs for the IPV's came from Fisheries, and nothing to indicate how any much funding was received by Defence from other departments which benefit from IPV operations. This makes it difficult to determine how much of the ~NZD$3.2 bil. Vote Defence budget is actually going towards defending NZ.

Now I have no issue with other departments receiving funding, especially when doing needful service. The issue I tend to have, is people (politicians and activists, mostly) point at the size of the Vote Defence budget and/or it's percentage of GDP and argue that it is large enough, especially for such a small, remote nation. What they miss, is that the actual amount of funding for the NZDF is a bit smaller than that of Vote Defence, because of all the activities in Vote Defence that do not actually contribute to Defence, and the NZDF activities in support of other agencies. One of the other issues with including non-defence expenditures in Vote Defence, is that it also makes it more difficult to determine where/how NZ ranks in terms of defence funding when compared to other nations. While not particularly important, funding levels when compared between nations of similar size populations and/or GDP can provide a capability gauge.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
As a thought exercise, that could be interesting. As mentioned, there could be both benefits to giving such a department or agency such responsibilities, as well as negatives.

One of the issues I tend to have with the whole-of-government approach is that by having the NZDF perform functions in support of (or in some cases in place of) other departments or agencies, it further muddies the waters in terms of what resources are available or expended in support of the NZDF core mission. Which as I have already brought up more than once, are already muddied by the Capital Charge and funding for Veterans.

Having looked through the Vote Defence, Customs, Conservation, and Primary Industries and Food Safety 2015/2016 budgets, I did find a figure of just under NZD$39 mil. for


Nothing however, to indicate how much if any of the operating costs for the IPV's came from Fisheries, and nothing to indicate how any much funding was received by Defence from other departments which benefit from IPV operations. This makes it difficult to determine how much of the ~NZD$3.2 bil. Vote Defence budget is actually going towards defending NZ.

Now I have no issue with other departments receiving funding, especially when doing needful service. The issue I tend to have, is people (politicians and activists, mostly) point at the size of the Vote Defence budget and/or it's percentage of GDP and argue that it is large enough, especially for such a small, remote nation. What they miss, is that the actual amount of funding for the NZDF is a bit smaller than that of Vote Defence, because of all the activities in Vote Defence that do not actually contribute to Defence, and the NZDF activities in support of other agencies. One of the other issues with including non-defence expenditures in Vote Defence, is that it also makes it more difficult to determine where/how NZ ranks in terms of defence funding when compared to other nations. While not particularly important, funding levels when compared between nations of similar size populations and/or GDP can provide a capability gauge.
I suppose it will always be hard to gauge and pinpoint a hard and fast figure or percentage as the same funding model will apply to varying degrees to ops/tasks/roles such as HADR, civil defence, public events, one off non-mil tasks etc ie transporting zoo animals, moving aid relief or relocating surplus fire engines wherein it could be fully defence funded, shared, costed etc.

I would assume a pre-determined amount of hours/days/funding (service dependant) would be allocated to actually cover a certain amount of non-core taskings and unplanned activities and other scenarios could even be written off as training. Somewhat contingency fund.

I do believe it is actually more set for directed support to other govt agencies and is built into their overall funding for outputs as in a certain amount of hours/days for their taskings to be used as their priorities dictate ie police drug recovery. MAP orion fisheries patrols would be measured in allocated hours as well but which agency funds them? defence? MFAT? someone else?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
2016 NZ Defence Budget

The 2016 NZ Budget was released at 1400 NZST and NZ$300.9 million in increased operational spending has been allocated to NZDF. This spending is spread over four years. The budget estimates for the Ministry of Defence and NZDF have also been released. I have not yet had the time to go through them.

Update:
B.19 | 33
Defence Mid-point Rebalancing Review – Funding Track
Estimates Vote 2015/16 2016/17 2017/18 2018/19 2019/20 Capital
Vol. 4____NZDF___-____31.819__89.700__89.700__89.700___-
This funding provides for the continued implementation of the Defence Mid-
point Rebalancing Review. This review determined the set of capabilities required within the New Zealand Defence Force to enable the delivery of the Government’s defence policy, as laid out in the Defence White Paper 2010.
All amounts in $millions.
 
Last edited:

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
The 2016 NZ Budget was released at 1400 NZST and NZ$300.9 million in increased operational spending has been allocated to NZDF. This spending is spread over four years. The budget estimates for the Ministry of Defence and NZDF have also been released. I have not yet had the time to go through them.

Update:

All amounts in $millions.
Minister Brownlee's release is below. Looks like a modest increase, and all classified as 'Operational' rather than 'Capital'.

Gerry Brownlee

26 May, 2016

Defence Force receives $300.9m new funding


The Defence Force receives new operating funding of $300.9 million over four years as part of Budget 2016 to support the work it does, Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee says.

“This funding follows the 2013 Defence Mid-Point Rebalancing Review, which determined indicative funding needs of the Defence Force to 2030,” Mr Brownlee says.

“The Review continues to be implemented, and I’m pleased that this is the third year that new funding has been made available.

“The Government's long-term commitment to having a modern and responsive Defence Force is also reflected in the 2016 Defence White Paper, which will be released shortly.

“The White Paper confirms investment in major capabilities and infrastructure to deliver Defence policy out to 2030.

“The funding announced today allows the Defence Force to concurrently undertake domestic, regional and international security tasks, giving it greater options in responding to changes in the security environment,” Mr Brownlee says.

“It will provide for increases in a wide range of operational areas, such as personnel, and costs associated with new and improved capabilities.

“These increases are required for the Defence Force to carry out the tasks required of it by the Government.

“It will also enable the continued introduction into service of new and upgraded capabilities and the regeneration of Defence properties,” Mr Brownlee says.

The new funding is made of up of $31.8 million in 2016/17 and $89.7 million in each of the following three years.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Minister Brownlee's release is below. Looks like a modest increase, and all classified as 'Operational' rather than 'Capital'.
Found some CapEx figures, looks like a doubling of the budget for 2016/17.

From http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/2016/estimates/v4/est16-v4-deffor.pdf the Overview on page 2 states:

"There is also a capital expenditure appropriation of up to $747 million for the purchase of assets."

Very little detail on what the additional CapEx entails (see page 3 table: Total Departmental Capital Expenditure - no detail). (Also from page 3 the 2015/16 budget was $439m budgeted, but only $323m estimated actual).

Although for 2016/17 this document (see table - page 14) outlines around $215 million of expenditure on capabilities already in the public domain (eg Maritime Helicopter Capability, Frigate Systems Upgrade, Network Enabled Army Programme, Special Operations Vehicles Replacement Project and Individual Weapons Replacement Project).

Which suggests perhaps another approx. $530 million (as part of this year's budget allocation) to go towards any new acquisition projects that will be announced in due course?

Edit: the first linked doc talks about NZDF "Total Departmental Capital Expenditure" of $747m. The second linked doc (MoD) talks about $260m for "Total Non-Departmental Capital Expenditure". Does the latter form part of the former ... surely not (or does the former also include some of the Capital Charge component) - can anyone explain the difference?
 
Last edited:
Top