Royal New Zealand Air Force

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Because it was a HADR mission and not for example a full Combined Arms Taskforce Group undertaking a MIC mission or higher scenario which may impact what is required/requested. There is a distinction. Also where crew training is within the cycle can impacts more than airframe which may or may not be a factor.
Agree Mr C they still have a way to go before they reach DLOC as a Sqn, doesn't help when you constantly have to deploy small number of frames to support Police, HADR & any number of requests as well as still provide the necessary training for the rest of the Sqn. In saying that 3 Sqn are doing a fine job transitioning and cant be that far off attaining DLOC i'll put money on them reaching DLOC at the next Southern Katipo exercise IMHO.

CD
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
Agree Mr C they still have a way to go before they reach DLOC as a Sqn, doesn't help when you constantly have to deploy small number of frames to support Police, HADR & any number of requests as well as still provide the necessary training for the rest of the Sqn. In saying that 3 Sqn are doing a fine job transitioning and cant be that far off attaining DLOC i'll put money on them reaching DLOC at the next Southern Katipo exercise IMHO.

CD
DLOC is task-orientated. They're already at DLOC and OLOC for some (i.e. over land SAR).

The idea that they're constantly providing frame to Police is an urban legend. Support to Police has been trending down for years. If you search the Parliament Written Question database you should find the actual SAR hours flown by platform.
 

rjtjrt

Member
As a recent reference ET 99 utilised 6 hueys to support a Bn sized deployment (arguably the largest we would realistically do and even then not without issues so not likely to be repeated anytime soon) in the surge dropping to 4 after everyone was established so comparitively 3 NH90s would be needed to support our largest deployment (throw in a lone A109 for SAR, overwatch, contingency etc for good measure) and you have a pretty standard helo package for us. This could then downsize to 2 NH90s and a A109 once it all settled down if need be (though probably not as likely for redundancy reasons). Aus army also had 3 blackhawks supporting their battalion in timor leste post 06 ops so obviously a considered option.

That would leave 5 NH90s and 4 A109 in NZ for tasking, training, rotation and maintainence keeping in mind that with main effort being a Bn gp overseas, not much else commital wise will be happening around this time due to manpower required to sustain, raise, retrain such a large deployment (for NZ). So realistically the most NH90s we would deploy at once should be 3 at the most, 2 for coy sized ops and 1 for smaller tasks along with the obvious A109 option to supplement or even conduct said task (unlike the sioux of old).

...........
There is a recent example of numbers needed to deploy a complex helicopter on long term ops at a long distance.
Aust Army deployment of Chinooks to Afghanistan. We had 6 in total. Could barely manage with 2 deployed for 8 months each year over a number of years. Stretch so thin, we had increase total fleet to 7 to make it more doable. They would return the 2 aicraft to Aust at end of fighting season and send back just before next fighting season started.
6 in total was really not enough.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
There is a recent example of numbers needed to deploy a complex helicopter on long term ops at a long distance.
Aust Army deployment of Chinooks to Afghanistan. We had 6 in total. Could barely manage with 2 deployed for 8 months each year over a number of years. Stretch so thin, we had increase total fleet to 7 to make it more doable. They would return the 2 aicraft to Aust at end of fighting season and send back just before next fighting season started.
6 in total was really not enough.
And numbers (or lack of) is exactly why I do not see us deploying half our total NH90 fleet on a single op, regardles of if it is potentially our largest deployment or not. Training, deep maintainence, national commitments, contingency etc all still need to be maintained in NZ not only to support said op but also other directed outputs.

If we had more frames then obviously this could adjust accordingly however we do not therefore have to work with what we have. We actually need a large scale deployment like ET99 for govt to fully appreciate, ie somewhat fail, struggle at best to prove a point, and then possibly they will see the shortcomings in their logic and like you we may increase the fleet to cover. I think however the chances of another Bn Gp deployment for us would be quite slim due to the issues we had last time in maintaining, supporting and recovering even with our new structure so we could be waiting awhile to fully put to the test.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
DLOC is task-orientated. They're already at DLOC and OLOC for some (i.e. over land SAR).

The idea that they're constantly providing frame to Police is an urban legend. Support to Police has been trending down for years. If you search the Parliament Written Question database you should find the actual SAR hours flown by platform.
So the complete Sqn is at DLOC, so between individual training as well as supporting current needs & Sqn collective training just where did 3 Sqn manage to confirm by deployment as a Sqn that they were and met DLOC? and flying around the airfield does not count and you know it. But before you lecture me on the difference between DLOC & any other training requirement when have you ever trained to meet those directed activities?.

And who by the way is talking about the Police & urban legends Ive seen the tasking at JFHQ Im quiet aware about Whole of Government taskings on all NZDF but more especially 3 Sqn. PM me if your got a problem.

CD
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
So the complete Sqn is at DLOC, so between individual training as well as supporting current needs & Sqn collective training just where did 3 Sqn manage to confirm by deployment as a Sqn that they were and met DLOC? and flying around the airfield does not count and you know it. But before you lecture me on the difference between DLOC & any other training requirement when have you ever trained to meet those directed activities?.

And who by the way is talking about the Police & urban legends Ive seen the tasking at JFHQ Im quiet aware about Whole of Government taskings on all NZDF but more especially 3 Sqn. PM me if your got a problem.

CD
I'm not sure you understand the current version of the operational reporting system. It's moved on a fair way from where it was a few years ago.
Cadredave was a serving member of NZDF until very recently and because of his positions, was and is fully aware of the reporting protocols and procedures utilised by NZDF units, far more than you are. So treat him with respect because he does know what he is talking about. Being disrespectful of him will be treated seriously.

If you think Police taskings for activities like SAR are a major drain on time it would probably be time to crunch your numbers again. Operational taskings for SAR roles are a mere fraction of what they were even ten years ago. In a relative sense the total operational output would be less than what one crew would need to stay current in most tasks, like flying in controlled airspace, annually. The reality is that most SAR jobs these days are resolved quickly - the average time from notification to patient/victim recovery is well under 12 hours. When the NTM time is set at a couple of hours for 3 Squadron and the local civilian rescue helicopter is at 15 minutes response as part of their ACC contracts, it's little wonder.
 
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40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Tender Detail for NH90 SYNTHETIC TRAINING DEVICE

NH90 Synthetic Training Device

The New Zealand Government (hereafter, The Crown) is seeking to add to its NH90 helicopter training capability through the provision of a Synthetic Training Device (STD), to enhance the current NH90 pilot training model.

This Request for Information (RFI) invites submissions from companies to provide a solution for an NH90 STD. This process will be managed by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in coordination with the NZDF.

Closing date/time: Monday, 2 May 2016 at 10:00 PM (Pacific/Auckland UTC+12:00)

For further information, contact details and documentation go to http://www.gets.govt.nz
It is free to register and download documents.
RNZAF evidently want to boost it training capability for the NH90, and is looking at prices. Not this is a Request for Information, not an actual tender at this stage.

I had assumed NZ would simply pay for access to Australia's simulators, but it appears this is not the case. I'm not sure whether this is a full flight simulator or something a bit more modest. Given CAE of Canada supplied the Aussie simulators, as well as the ones for the T-6C and Seasprite, they would have to be very well paced to win this contract if it proceeds.

http://www.cae.com/Second-Australia...-and-mission-simulator-accepted-for-training/
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I had assumed NZ would simply pay for access to Australia's simulators, but it appears this is not the case. I'm not sure whether this is a full flight simulator or something a bit more modest. Given CAE of Canada supplied the Aussie simulators, as well as the ones for the T-6C and Seasprite, they would have to be very well paced to win this contract if it proceeds.

CAE - Corporate
one of the issues is whether NZ has had observers sitting at the back of the room for Oz 90 events. on that basis it might be the vehicle used to assist in informing NZDF a way forward.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Tender Detail for NH90 SYNTHETIC TRAINING DEVICE



RNZAF evidently want to boost it training capability for the NH90, and is looking at prices. Not this is a Request for Information, not an actual tender at this stage.

I had assumed NZ would simply pay for access to Australia's simulators, but it appears this is not the case. I'm not sure whether this is a full flight simulator or something a bit more modest. Given CAE of Canada supplied the Aussie simulators, as well as the ones for the T-6C and Seasprite, they would have to be very well paced to win this contract if it proceeds.

CAE - Corporate
Just had a look at the GETS site and the tender (RFI) was cancelled. No reason stated and no documentation.
 
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Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
DLOC is task-orientated. They're already at DLOC and OLOC for some (i.e. over land SAR).

The idea that they're constantly providing frame to Police is an urban legend. Support to Police has been trending down for years. If you search the Parliament Written Question database you should find the actual SAR hours flown by platform.
The above response is one of the types of responses the Mod team has had issues with. Telling someone who has been vetted and who would have been in a position to know the facts behind their post, that what they're posting is "urban legend" all based upon the # of hours flown in support of SAR operations is problematic. Especially since the post you responded to mentioned Police support, not SAR support.
-Preceptor
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
A couple of A400 links, as there seems to be no other NZ-specific news at present.

Bad news.
Germany Presses Airbus to resolve A400M problems

Looks mainly like German politicians sounding off over the previously-reported gearbox problems, but there is a worrying mention of 'fuselage cracks' that I haven't heard reported before.

Good news
Indonesia to buy Airbus A400M military transport planes: minister | Reuters

Indonesian defence minister tells Reuters in interview that he is looking at ordering a small number of A400s.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A couple of A400 links, as there seems to be no other NZ-specific news at present.

Bad news.
Germany Presses Airbus to resolve A400M problems

Looks mainly like German politicians sounding off over the previously-reported gearbox problems, but there is a worrying mention of 'fuselage cracks' that I haven't heard reported before.
Bloomberg have done a story on the cracks. Apparently doesn't affect the structural integrity of the aircraft and the defective aluminium alloy can be replaced during routine maintenance. Article dated 13/5/2016.
Airbus Identifies ‘Cracking Behavior’ in A400M Military Aircraft - Bloomberg
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks Ngati, I should have checked GETS before posting.

It is a little odd - either they want to find out the price of a simulator or the don't. That isn't the sort of decision that is made on a whim.
No probs. I missed it when it was first posted. Yes don't know what is happening. I noticed that the Ministry acquisition team was hiring a project leader and people for a project team for a fixed term contract. Of course no mention what the project was.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
According to janes Sweden has just life extended 6 C130Hs out to 2030. They must be going through the same issues as us to do that, hopefully our heads don't see that as a challenge.....or an excuse.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
No probs. I missed it when it was first posted. Yes don't know what is happening. I noticed that the Ministry acquisition team was hiring a project leader and people for a project team for a fixed term contract. Of course no mention what the project was.
I hope they have good KPI handcuffs to protect the outcome desired then...
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
In Feb 2016 the NZ Herald ran a piece suggesting irregularities in how the RNZAF awarded a small maintenance contract to a company owned by serving staff. The implication was that there was something shady and possibly corrupt going on.

A couple of stories in recent days have shed some more light on what happened.

One man in a shed kept navy afloat - National - NZ Herald News

Blowtorch on air force trio as lifejacket deal investigated - National - NZ Herald News

It appears that staff cuts and management failings left NZDF in a position where the inability to service lifejackets in a timely manner was endangering operations. As I read it, service personnel managed to come up with a quick fix by contracting a former colleague to do the work. A few rules may have been bent, but there were no financial irregularities and no corruption.

It certainly highlights the danger of indiscriminate headcount reductions (as NZDF endured at the time this happened), and the fact that not everyone in a back office role is unnecessary.
 
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