Submarine news

[ASSAIL]

My apologies ASSAIL maybe i should have done my homework a bit better. I thought i remember the guide on the Vampire saying they still slept in hammocks but i may have been wrong. Certainly the adition of a Tartar system would have improved them, by the mid 70s the lack of a modern AD system would have been a weakness.

No apology needed, the Museum volunteer guides are not always correct as I have encountered on several visits there to my old bunk. This forum supports robust debate.
I must come clean also, on rechecking my facts, Daring entered service in the RN in 1952, the Forrest Sherman entered service in the USN at about the same time. The only difference between the FS and the CFAs with regards to habitability was the latter had air conditioning. The CFA class was an improved FS and first entered service in 1960.

 

[Volkodav]

there's always a superficial preference with what will be the most comfortable but its just that. the CFA DDG's are the standout example, ask anyone who served in them to comment on their habitability cf a Daring or River and they will tell you they were awful. Then ask them what they would prefer to serve and fight on and the CFA's were a clear winner.
Uniforms want reliable, superior capability above all else and I suspect that's the case for all fighting men and women.

Sorry for the late reply, and sorry for not being more specific. I should have made it clear that what I was saying was when there are no differences in capability accommodation will give a design an edge. I am not suggesting that this is because the RAN are soft, but rather I understand that accommodation standards affect crew performance and even physical condition. Accomodation and decor were a critical area on the AWD that had to be signed off and approved as part of managing the customers expectations and avoiding issues at acceptance.

Accommodation was also a critical (though far from the only) factor in selecting Kockums over IKL. Kockums understood the RANs requirements for accommodation, i.e. the need for crews to maintain condition through long deployments to conduct covert surveillance of Soviet bases and shipping, the Germans did not and made little provision for the crews.

Anyone who has ever toured an Oberon, forget what you saw because a Collins is a mansion in comparison. It would still not be an easy life but far better than on most other designs.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Sorry for the late reply, and sorry for not being more specific. I should have made it clear that what I was saying was when there are no differences in capability accommodation will give a design an edge. I am not suggesting that this is because the RAN are soft, but rather I understand that accommodation standards affect crew performance and even physical condition. Accomodation and decor were a critical area on the AWD that had to be signed off and approved as part of managing the customers expectations and avoiding issues at acceptance.

Accommodation was also a critical (though far from the only) factor in selecting Kockums over IKL. Kockums understood the RANs requirements for accommodation, i.e. the need for crews to maintain condition through long deployments to conduct covert surveillance of Soviet bases and shipping, the Germans did not and made little provision for the crews.

Anyone who has ever toured an Oberon, forget what you saw because a Collins is a mansion in comparison. It would still not be an easy life but far better than on most other designs.

they're governed by OHS/WHS constraints now. So a hammock would have no chance of getting into todays sleeping habitat/accom designs

 

[Volkodav]

I will also take umbrage at your scathing remarks on the Darings capability. They were fine ships, possibly the most effective destroyer ever delivered by the RN.
Vendetta served effectively on the Gunline in Vietnam and was only hampered by a supply chain which was inadequate, conversely the DDGs were superbly supported by the USN during that conflict.
In reality, the Darings were such fine ships that they were to be refitted and upgraded with Tartar to upgrade their AAW capability. This was canned when the govt was going to order a fourth DDG, later cancelled.

Finally, you are wrong about timeline. The USN ordered the first DDGs in 1952 a 1954 only a few years after the Darings were ordered for the RN, 1948 IIRC.

Sorry to be OT, but neck hairs bristled

The Darings were fine ships and seen by the RN as a suitable replacement for cruisers in many roles. Though there were many design sketches between the Daring class and the later County class DLGs for "super" Darings none were ever built for financial and force structure reasons, i.e. frigates were a priority.

What is interesting is not only was a Tartar conversion of the Daring considered, but also a conversation of the preceding Battle class as well. This is why Tartar was seen as critical for the new destroyers, it was to have been a common system with up to five upgraded destroyers also using the system. This is also one reason why the new ships were to be built overseas, as had been experienced in the 50s, conducting concurrent major upgrades on existing vessels can and will adversely affect the process of new builds.

While the County class was considered for the Australian missile destroyer role, it was not the Seaslug armed COSAG powered version we wanted but a Tartar armed steam powered ship that was more a Super Daring than a County. The Admiralty advised they were too busy to take on the job, effectively handing the contract to the US. Ironically as the conversions and the fourth Perth went nowhere the RN suggestion that the Escort Cruiser they were developing would be a better fit for the RAN than any of the destroyer options. This was a large ship that started as an equivalent to Vittorio Veneto and ended up looking like a mini Invincible, some of which were designed with Tartar.

 

[Punta74]

So what potential names would be a possibility for these new subs ?

If we continue on the same path, you'd assume they would be named after commanders that have received distinction within the RAN.

Is it possible a Sub could take "HMAS Australia" or would that only be given to a flagship surface vessel ?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Is it possible a Sub could take "HMAS Australia" or would that only be given to a flagship surface vessel ?

nope, flagship name - skimmers not subs

 

[Redlands18]

So what potential names would be a possibility for these new subs ?

If we continue on the same path, you'd assume they would be named after commanders that have received distinction within the RAN.

Is it possible a Sub could take "HMAS Australia" or would that only be given to a flagship surface vessel ?

I'm thinking that the RAN will continue with the new tradition of naming them after leading figures in the RANs history. Perhaps some of the ex RAN members on here would like to nominate some of the senior officers or other ranks they served with and deserves the honour.

Punta the Sheean is actually named after a 18yo Ordinary Seaman Teddy Sheean who died at his gun post on the HMAS Armidale fending of attacking Japanese aircraft in 1942. It is one of the great injustices that he wasn't awarded a posthumous VC.

The only way we will ever see a HMAS Australia again is if we got a large 100% Aviation vessel for the RAN (no C word).

 

[StingrayOZ]

nope, flagship name - skimmers not subs

Jimmy carter got a sub instead of a carrier, so I think it shows subs do have the credibility to bear high profile names. I do agree its not at all likely.

The Collins class did use up a whole lot of very impressive names of the RAN history from WW2. I always wonder what the last two would be named if they built 8. Obviously oberon and earlier didn't follow this convention.

 

[Todjaeger]

Jimmy carter got a sub instead of a carrier, so I think it shows subs do have the credibility to bear high profile names. I do agree its not at all likely.

The Collins class did use up a whole lot of very impressive names of the RAN history from WW2. I always wonder what the last two would be named if they built 8. Obviously oberon and earlier didn't follow this convention.

USS Jimmy Carter was so named because President Carter was the only president qualified for service aboard subs, having served aboard USN diesel-electric and then nuclear submarines from 1948 to ~1953.

Given his later pacifism, I am honestly under of whether having one of three Seawolf-class SSN's was intended as a compliment, or a subtle dig at President Carter. It is worth noting that President Carter was involved in developing the second nuclear-powered sub in US service, the SSN-575 USS Seawolf. That might also be part of the reason the last of the Seawolf-class SSN's was named after him.

 

[Punta74]

Could use "ports" in Australian, we have already used Bays/Rivers.

IE: Botany; Kembla; Jackson; Gladstone; Augusta etc etc.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Jimmy carter got a sub instead of a carrier, so I think it shows subs do have the credibility to bear high profile names. I do agree its not at all likely..

nope, my reference was to the fact that the country name is generally reserved for the flagship of the fleet - it used to be the most powerful surface vessel in the fleet

bearing in mind that the flagship is also any ship with the boss on board

no issue on famous ex-service people names as we've used that principle before.

 

[old faithful]

HMAS Broadbill, Barramundi, Bream,Billfish,Blackfish,Barracuda,Blue marlin,Bass,Bluefin,Bonefish,Barbel,Bonito.

for GF.

 

[gf0012-aust]

HMAS Broadbill, Barramundi, Bream,Billfish,Blackfish,Barracuda,Blue marlin,Bass,Bluefin,Bonefish,Barbel,Bonito.

for GF.

Not sure the cousins would like us using Barbel.....

 

[Bluey 006]

While it would go against the norm i'd like to see them named after true Australian legends and hero's of any kind (except sport).

HMAS Weary Dunlop
HMAS Fred Hollows
HMAS Howard Florey

etc

 

[old faithful]

Not sure the cousins would like us using Barbel.....

Could really confuse the enemy with Barracouta, and barracuda, blue and black marlin, Our American friends would have pronunciation problems with Barramundi, Barra Moondeye? Burramuundy? NO! Its Barra Mun Dee!!!!

 

[Volkodav]

While it would go against the norm i'd like to see them named after true Australian legends and hero's of any kind (except sport).

HMAS Weary Dunlop
HMAS Fred Hollows
HMAS Howard Florey

etc

Famous surgeons could be appropriate, add in Victor Chang, David David, a play on the "surgical".

 

[Joe Black]

gf, just out of curiosity, Taiwan says they would like to build their own subs. Given they have little to no sub building experience, what would you think they would need to do to start building up some capacity to do one? Are they in fantasy land or if they manage to get some countries like Japan to help them establish the expertise, it would become doable?

 

[Bluey 006]

Famous surgeons could be appropriate, add in Victor Chang, David David, a play on the "surgical".

I like it. Also running with the medical theme all these people saves lives. At the end of the day once FOC is achieved (lets not there at the moment) the submarines will save lives also (with their 'surgical' capabilities).

 

[gf0012-aust]

gf, just out of curiosity, Taiwan says they would like to build their own subs. Given they have little to no sub building experience, what would you think they would need to do to start building up some capacity to do one? Are they in fantasy land or if they manage to get some countries like Japan to help them establish the expertise, it would become doable?

I think they've left their run far too late to build their own subs

nobody wants to sell them contemp tech now - esp now that china is wielding financial muscle. The germans could have had sales in the late 90's but no longer as they don't want to irritate china

the other thing is that no one wants to sell them contemp tech because there is a strong belief that their INT services are too far compromised

there's no love between taiwan and japan - there's still the nanching factor in play there

 

[Punta74]

I do like the mix of Australian Military, doctors, Scientists etc.

Nancy Wake.
Albert Jacka.
Sir Douglas Mawson