F-35 Program - General Discussion

the road runner

Active Member
F-35 Meet and greet video on the JSF well worth watching and a very big eye opener from the perspective of the test pilot !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgD0AJ19e-4

Re. RAAF thread on how Super Hornet on how it compares to JSF..
The Test pilot recons the Super Hornet is not even comparable to JSF..
Voice Recognition... Talking to the plane
Data fusion.....Takes all the sensor info from RF,Radar,EW infrared sensor and gives a
total Situational Awareness picture of the battlefield without having to manipulate or operate the sensors (as you would have to do with Super hornet)

Enjoy
 

colay1

Member
It should be noted that the Super Hornet is being upgraded with a similar capability as well. A smart investment to keep the jet relevant vs current and future threats given that the SH will likely constitute the bulk of the Navy's strikefighter fleet for the next decade or two.

https://www.aiaa.org/Detail.aspx?id=13935
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It should be noted that the Super Hornet is being upgraded with a similar capability as well. A smart investment to keep the jet relevant vs current and future threats given that the SH will likely constitute the bulk of the Navy's strikefighter fleet for the next decade or two.

https://www.aiaa.org/Detail.aspx?id=13935
Note that this is at least as much, if not more, intended to allow Super Hornet to benefit from data derived from the F-35s superior sensor fit

oldsig
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Was just watching a video on myths about the JSF and thought i would share with the forum

Episode 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtZ...oJIo8EVwY&annotation_id=annotation_1257837377

Episode 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyH...oJIo8EVwY&annotation_id=annotation_2397174359

Episode 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31oJIo8EVwY

When people ask you why the JSF is a dud just link them !

One point that stood out was the 1 trillion dollar cost for the JSF program out to 2065.... if the existing capability of F-15/ F-16 /F-18/ A-10 ect were to be kept in service it is estimated the cost of the older 4th gen fighters would be around 4 Trillion dollars to fly out to 2065
Thanks Roadrunner for the link.
Not sure as to who the auther of the video is but it's a well put together piece and is very clear in articulating the F35s strength of design.
If the F35 lives up to all the strengths suggested in the video then it should prove to be the stella performer that countries like Australia hope for in meeting our future air combat needs. Fingers crossed the program continues well as it's not too many years away that we will stand up our first squadron.
Exciting days ahead for the RAAF
Regards S
 

the road runner

Active Member
It should be noted that the Super Hornet is being upgraded with a similar capability as well. A smart investment to keep the jet relevant vs current and future threats given that the SH will likely constitute the bulk of the Navy's strikefighter fleet for the next decade or two.

https://www.aiaa.org/Detail.aspx?id=13935

The Supers AN/APG-79 radar is a 5th gen radar and very capable
Sure the Super hornets sensors,EW capabilities will be upgraded like any other aircraft but the line is drawn on its LO capabilities.

I am under the impression the JSF will be used in high threat AD environments passing info back to Hornets ,that will act like bomb trucks delivering weapons where needed. You would need a entirely new airframe for the superhornet to be considered 5th gen

Cheers
 

colay1

Member
I am not claiming the SH can be upgraded to a 5Gen configuration/capability, only that Sensor Fusion was being added on.
 

Guardian52

New Member
Alright, just to be clear and have everything out in the open, I am an American civilian who is just very interested in the F-35 program and what it means for the future of warfare. To be even more clear; I am writing a science-fiction novel centering around an infantry unit in the near future that will call upon support from aerial platforms from CH-47s, MH-60s, AC-130s, MQ-9s, F-15Es, F-35s and everything in between.

Now, on to my question:

How does the turn rate of the F-35A/C compare with that of the F-16 and the F-18 respectively? I've read some very negative articles about the F-35 and how it compared with its predecessor models but I have no idea whether of not any of that has any merit. Obviously after reading Air Power 101 and DACT, I understand that specific instances of elder air-frames beating their replacements does not entail the end of the world for the newer fighter.

I am also curious about the maximum altitude of the F-35 and how it compares to the F-16 and F-18.

Additionally, I was wondering if anyone on this thread had any information on the performance of the P&W F135 vs the GE F110 vs the F404 engines.

These questions purely pertain to the specifications and capabilities of each of the these systems.

Thank you for your time, have an excellent day.

-Guardian52
 

Guardian52

New Member
Guardian52, are you envisioning having the F-35 fight like a -teen jet?
When you say "a -teen jet" do you mean aircraft such as the F-15, F-16, and F-18? As in aircraft that end with a number in the teens?

I want to know this stuff because in the book I'm writing the F-35 will be called upon as a primary CAS platform while the F-22's role will be more air-to-air. However, for the sake of entertainment, one of my characters will be an F-35 pilot and he will engage enemy aircraft that don't exist yet (that's part of where the science-fiction kicks in) in air-to-air combat. In this case, I care more about the specifications of the F-35A&C models more than the B because they will not be used in the book.
 

colay1

Member
Yes, -teen jets refer to legacy 4Gen jets. Feedback from pilots who have flown the F-35 indicate it's performance tracks closely to program objectives and compares favorably with F-16 and F-18.
The F-35 will execute the counter-air mission differently from legacy jets. It will fight to it's strenghs (eg. LO, superior SA, LPI/LPD data links) to engage foes at a distance. 5Gen pilots training emphasizes collaborative engagement and avoid screw-ups thst lead to close-in combat.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, -teen jets refer to legacy 4Gen jets. Feedback from pilots who have flown the F-35 indicate it's performance tracks closely to program objectives and compares favorably with F-16 and F-18.
The F-35 will execute the counter-air mission differently from legacy jets. It will fight to it's strenghs (eg. LO, superior SA, LPI/LPD data links) to engage foes at a distance. 5Gen pilots training emphasizes collaborative engagement and avoid screw-ups thst lead to close-in combat.
The air forces have at last progressed from dogfighting/one formation engaging another t close quarters.
This is something us naval types progressed from nearly 100'years ago:D
 
Last edited:

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Alright, just to be clear and have everything out in the open, I am an American civilian who is just very interested in the F-35 program and what it means for the future of warfare. To be even more clear; I am writing a science-fiction novel centering around an infantry unit in the near future that will call upon support from aerial platforms from CH-47s, MH-60s, AC-130s, MQ-9s, F-15Es, F-35s and everything in between.

Now, on to my question:

How does the turn rate of the F-35A/C compare with that of the F-16 and the F-18 respectively? I've read some very negative articles about the F-35 and how it compared with its predecessor models but I have no idea whether of not any of that has any merit. Obviously after reading Air Power 101 and DACT, I understand that specific instances of elder air-frames beating their replacements does not entail the end of the world for the newer fighter.

I am also curious about the maximum altitude of the F-35 and how it compares to the F-16 and F-18.

Additionally, I was wondering if anyone on this thread had any information on the performance of the P&W F135 vs the GE F110 vs the F404 engines.

These questions purely pertain to the specifications and capabilities of each of the these systems.

Thank you for your time, have an excellent day.

-Guardian52
Here's a link on engine specs.

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2014/12/06/fighter-aircraft-engine-comparision/
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ah I wouldn't take young Picard's work as gospel... Mostly because it is nearly complete horsesh*t.

All young Picard would have you believe is that the most successful fighter engine designer on the planet developed the best fighter engine on the planet (F119) into the F135 and in the process turned it into the heaviest, most expensive, most fuel hungry and most unreliable modern fighter engine there is. But one conversly that is also the most powerful... (Most probably because its thrust class is so widely known, that even he couldn't get away with fabricating that.)

He also 'knows' the exact weight, thrust, operating cost, SFC and specs of every modern fighter engine on the planet.

That is some insight right there...
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
When you say "a -teen jet" do you mean aircraft such as the F-15, F-16, and F-18? As in aircraft that end with a number in the teens?

I want to know this stuff because in the book I'm writing the F-35 will be called upon as a primary CAS platform while the F-22's role will be more air-to-air. However, for the sake of entertainment, one of my characters will be an F-35 pilot and he will engage enemy aircraft that don't exist yet (that's part of where the science-fiction kicks in) in air-to-air combat. In this case, I care more about the specifications of the F-35A&C models more than the B because they will not be used in the book.
Haven't seen the NOTAM yet, so your degree per minute roll rates might have to be bit 'creative'... :)

However test pilots describe it as having the acceleration and sustained turning ability most like a clean F-16 Block 52 aircraft with the nose authority and slow speed turning ability of an F/A-18C/D aircraft.

Which if this testimony is to be believed (and as they are the design goals and confirmed in testing by professional flight test pilots, there is no legitimate reason NOT to believe it) the F-35 handles very well in typical 'dog-fighting' flight regimes on top of which it has outstanding high alpha flying qualities.

However there is no need to speculate on this. Want to see for yourself? Here you go...

http://youtu.be/aWji8AcOYGA

Not considering any other 'system' then and whilst acknowledging systems play a bigger part in air warfare than any aerodynamic statistics do, the F-35 won't be a slouch in air combat maneuvering and won't be 'clubbed like a seal' by anything in a short ranged fight, all other things being equal. (Which of course they aren't).

However in saying that, there is no doubt that with its low observability, big radar and optimised payload for long range missiles (only AMRAAM and eventually Meteor at this stage, are being integrated as internally carried air to air missiles) it is better suited tactically to long ranged 'sniping' style air combat than it is short ranged engagements.

As for F135 v F110 and F404, you are talking about a new engine versus much older engines.

F135 has roughly the same amount of dry thrust (ie: non-afterburning thrust) as the F110 did in it's initial forms in full mil-power and as a pair of F404 engines do in full mil power...

An F135 in full mil power has more than 11,000lbs more thrust than the latest variants of F110-132 do in full mil and about 6,000lbs more thrust than a pair of F404 engines do in full mil thrust...

It also (reported) has better fuel efficiency, better SFC and better mean time between failure, than any of it's predecessors. It truly is a beast of an engine.

As to the F-35's ceiling, it is being cleared to 50,000 feet, the same as F-16 and F/A-18 Hornet / Super Hornets were initially. All were subsequently tested and cleared to slightly higher altitudes, with the Super Hornet most recently cleared to 55,000 feet. This is mainly a matter of priority in testing though. I have no doubt the F-35 could fly at 55,000 feet if need be. Top speed is also a matter of testing priority. Officially F-35 is required to 'go' to Mach 1.6 just as the Super Hornet was required to go to Mach 1.8.

However the F-35 has been taken in testing to Mach 1.67 and the Super Hornet reached Mach 1.89 in flight evaluations for the Indian MMRCA contest. These 'maximum effort' stats are meaningless however for overall combat performance. They aren't typical environments in which combat aircraft will find themselves operationally and exist for the benefit of the marketeers primarily. I would suggest in 'wartime' settings, both aircraft have a margin well beyond these levels which they have been tested to, which was reflected in the relatively recent clearing of Super Hornet to 55,000 feet.

Did the fact it wasn't cleared for the first 15 years of it's service mean it couldn't fly at 55,000 feet if absolutely necessary? Of course not. Nothing was 'done' to magically make the aircraft capable of flying higher, apart perhaps from some software upgrades. What changed was the priority to open up that envelope, again for marketing purposes in the Indian competition. So it is with many performance measures on combat aircraft. We just don't know the real truth and those who do generally don't tell for good reason. They just smile and nod and agree with the official line...

What I would do, is not focus on paper statistics. They don't tell the real story anyway. The F135's requirement to meet 43,000lbs of thrust is at the END of it's lifecycle, not the beginning. So if a tired, worn out engine meets that standard, what does a shiny new one do, exactly?

Food for thought and an example of why ther other aspects of air combat victories are more important...

Since 1991 it has been something like 90% or more of all air to air shoot downs that occurred at ranges that are officially considered 'beyond visual range' and the principal determining factor in these engagements, identified in studies of all these incidents, has been overwhelming 'who shot first.'

The days of missiles not working, are long past. Modern missile lethality has reached the point that being in a position to fire first, is far more important than the paper differences between the platforms hauling these missiles.

And as I'm sure you can appreciate being less of a target is directly proportional to your chances of being shot...
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
The only serious counter arguments to the F-35 are about the program cost. As a weapons delivery platform it is unmatched and will solidify USA's technological prowess for decades to come. As it gets upgraded it will stay ahead of the pack.

Meanwhile I foresee the russian 5th gen stealth fighter and bomber programs in perpetual limbo due to lack of funds, they have so much on their plate... And the chinese lack the technological know-how to produce a 5th gen aircraft, they are well behind the russians in that respect, that's why they are buying the su-35.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The only serious counter arguments to the F-35 are about the program cost. As a weapons delivery platform it is unmatched and will solidify USA's technological prowess for decades to come. As it gets upgraded it will stay ahead of the pack.

Meanwhile I foresee the russian 5th gen stealth fighter and bomber programs in perpetual limbo due to lack of funds, they have so much on their plate... And the chinese lack the technological know-how to produce a 5th gen aircraft, they are well behind the russians in that respect, that's why they are buying the su-35.
No, the only serious counter argument to the F-35 is software development. Pricing seems to be trending in the right direction. The link below summarizes the current status. It does not mention the other critical software problem, ALIS.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/testing-chief-warns-jsf-software-delays
 

colay1

Member
I'd wait for JPO amd LM to respond. Soffware is a challenge and will always have issues but Gilmore has a knack for making mohntains out of molehills. Many a time the issue/deficiencies he's raised have already been resolved or are in the process of resolution.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I'd wait for JPO amd LM to respond. Soffware is a challenge and will always have issues but Gilmore has a knack for making mohntains out of molehills. Many a time the issue/deficiencies he's raised have already been resolved or are in the process of resolution.
The JPO already has. They claim they will meet the target dates. As for LM, if you like smoke blown up your sunshine starved orifice, I'm sure they can at least deliver on that.
 
Top