Royal New Zealand Air Force

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Blaming Treasury for every perceived funding issue gets pretty old.

The concept was for resupply for a deployed brigade in South East Asia, from a strategic airhead to a forward operating base. Chinook lost out because of of the time/load factor and the personnel required to support it. It's difficult to see how heavy rotary ware fare any better these days to support a maximum of a deployed battalion.
The CONOPS have changed and we are no longer focussed on supporting a permanently deployed brigade in SEA where logistics support is land based and utilising land based air. We now have a different CONOPS that are maritime based, in the form of an amphibious task force, where initial insertion and logistical support will be from ships, hence the need for good rotary wing air mobility capable of delivering the required logistics quickly and efficiently. The most important part of any amphibious force is its logistics tail and its ability to provide that logistical support to where it is needed, quickly and efficiently, with the minimal amount of double handling and delay.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
The concept was for resupply for a deployed brigade in South East Asia, from a strategic airhead to a forward operating base. Chinook lost out because of of the time/load factor and the personnel required to support it. It's difficult to see how heavy rotary ware fare any better these days to support a maximum of a deployed battalion.
And that would have been under the guise of a larger commitment by a coalition of SEATO forces for which NZ would have given access to such capability, hopefully by 2030 NZD will have been better funded with an emphasis being able to deploy a self-sufficient battalion group along with a company size task group via JMMS strategic/tactical lifter A400M


But in order to do that defence would have to move to raise a third battalion permanently for an increase by about 1500/2000 pers
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I cannot see us getting ospreys or chinooks and have seen nothing to suggest otherwise, the NH90 was the helo upgrade in terms of modernisation and extra lift. At least a CN type has been mooted and at least has a reasoning, role(s) and precedence for use in the RNZAF and ultimately NZDF. Think we are over reaching abit in terms of kit aqquisition and govt willingness, a rifles somewhat different to a tilt rotor aircraft.

I also don't see an aversion to euro equipment in favour of US kit due to some teething issues. NH90s new build, we changed the pinzgauer and do we actually have supply chain issues? In fact the recent MAN truck purchase suggests we are very much still in the euro corner at the moment. American does not always mean better or at least better for us anyway, it is just another option.
Of course nothing to suggest otherwise is out there because I am the first to raise it. Someone has to and it may as well be me. I tend to kite raise after I have done a QRT SMART type exercise before I road test an idea.

Likewise I do not think it is over-reaching in the medium term. Over reaching meets over caution which is a natural reaction to anything which is the shock of the new. A solution is required to meet a demonstrative and long standing capability gap that being a lack of a light tactical transport and a politically driven cost cutting which led to an under-ordering of MUH (NH-90). With that consideration laid bare then factoring in over the medium term the increased activity tempo that most commentators in the Def&IR field are expecting in the region. Thus the identified issue is exacerbated.

What platform characteristics does one require to solve this issue when you look at our Conops both combat orientated and HADR noting that we are a couple of distant islands in a very big Ocean and whom also an area of responsibility and interest over a large part of that including thousands of populated island scattered over 1/10th of the earths surface?

The MAN trucks are fine as they are essentially a non complex OTS commercial procurement. However I stand by my statement that when it comes to perceptions held by our people who sign the cheques that more complex defence equipment with respect to ongoing logistical support the US contractors are superior to others. That is a major consideration and lesson learnt right from the acquisition stage. Vindicated in the recent T-6 deal which is seem as the recent gold standard in defence procurement from an end user Govt perspective.

Getting back to the shock of the new. Years back on this thread poster KH-12 flew the kite about the the RNZAF getting a couple of C-17's. Most people thought he was crazy to start off with but over time the argument was made and the C-17 did begin to stack up. It is still speculation that it has been ruled out. I am simply starting the conversation to rule the MV-22 in for consideration. Not unlike what KH-12 did 8-9 years ago.

There a solutions discussed here on DT that are well ahead of public discussions elsewhere including with local defence.
 
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Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
well it is the budget that defines the end result capability wise
Its not the budget (sorry budget has a part to play) its the quality of Staff work that ultimately is the deal breaker & that has always been NZDF down fall due to a three year posting cycle. Unfortunately Operational commitments took priority over all others with a corresponding impact on projects etc thankfully it has been ratified at last.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Its not the budget (sorry budget has a part to play) its the quality of Staff work that ultimately is the deal breaker & that has always been NZDF down fall due to a three year posting cycle. Unfortunately Operational commitments took priority over all others with a corresponding impact on projects etc thankfully it has been ratified at last.
Agree, I was over simplifying the end result many factors determine capabilty, and it's not just NZ with the problem of once a capabilty is determined funding will determine if the defined capabilty can be met effectively. Goverments want defence to give it certain options in times of need but funding of defence does not always reflect the goverments own policy objectives.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Agree, I was over simplifying the end result many factors determine capabilty, and it's not just NZ with the problem of once a capabilty is determined funding will determine if the defined capabilty can be met effectively. Goverments want defence to give it certain options in times of need but funding of defence does not always reflect the goverments own policy objectives.
Good point and indeed NZ is not alone. Even when funding has been made available for certain programs our DND fails to properly procure what has been funded! This just gives our pollies ammunition to reduce funding down the road (and they will).
 

t68

Well-Known Member
An interesting development here for the ADF, 3 more CH-47F with related equipment for $180m AUD or an not so accurate comparison,

FMS: Australia Seeks Three CH-47F Helicopters (thanks Road Runner)

NZDF bought NH-90 for $771m NZD or abut $85m for 9 airframes (one spares hulk or 96 if counting serviceable airframes)
ADF just requested 3 additional CH-47F $180 m or about $60m for 3 airframes

this capability more than meet operational requirements to move a platoon in a single movement, and freeing up 3x NH-90 in a more economic way than serviceability and personnel cost would for 3x NH-90, the major projects review showed a deficiency of at least 2x NH-90.3x CH-47F would give the movement of flexibility within the tactical environment whilst also exceeding the capability the movement of specialist support equipment and aeromedical needs whilst free up limited rotary assets

From a capability stand point for the future Air Mobility Review a mixed fleet of,
5x A400m
4x C27J
3x CH-47F along with the levels of current 8x NH-09 would give a balanced capability to NZDF
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Three CH-47s for $180m seems like the deal of the century. The RCAF version was well north of $100m US each and even further north of $100m each for a 20 year support contract.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Its not the budget (sorry budget has a part to play) its the quality of Staff work that ultimately is the deal breaker & that has always been NZDF down fall due to a three year posting cycle. Unfortunately Operational commitments took priority over all others with a corresponding impact on projects etc thankfully it has been ratified at last.
And also that the civilian policy "wonks" during the life of the 5th Labour government working in ministry & DPMC should have been spelt with an "a" it. The quality of advice reaked of being tailored .
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And also that the civilian policy "wonks" during the life of the 5th Labour government working in ministry & DPMC should have been spelt with an "a" it. The quality of advice reaked of being tailored .
I see MoD has requested a budget increase to enlarge the acquisitions Department to better meet the requirements of NZDF and other Departments so finally a small win, Mr C your get no argument from me on that point reference those policy wonks especially the DPMC Office & Treasury be honest that was the beginning of long slow decline in morale.

CD
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
You are correct in that statement, but I would add that it's better to have options in spare with a large mature local logistical train(flight time to europe is roughly 19-20 hrs Hawaii is 10 hrs or Japan is 10hrs)as for the MAN a majority of the spares would be of a COTS nature very little would have procurement problems.

So far a rough estimate would be about 250 NH90 built by comyparison there have various sources have estimated that more than 2,000 UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter variants are in service with the US Military and more than 600 exported over the years but that also comes with a design that started out in the 1970's. It might not be the best but it's a known quantity with a reliable supplier.

With hopefully an expanded JATF in years to come and perhaps a commonality with ADF Artillery in a few years heavy lift rotary will become of more importance in both land and martime environments
Of course nothing to suggest otherwise is out there because I am the first to raise it. Someone has to and it may as well be me. I tend to kite raise after I have done a QRT SMART type exercise before I road test an idea.

Likewise I do not think it is over-reaching in the medium term. Over reaching meets over caution which is a natural reaction to anything which is the shock of the new. A solution is required to meet a demonstrative and long standing capability gap that being a lack of a light tactical transport and a politically driven cost cutting which led to an under-ordering of MUH (NH-90). With that consideration laid bare then factoring in over the medium term the increased activity tempo that most commentators in the Def&IR field are expecting in the region. Thus the identified issue is exacerbated.

What platform characteristics does one require to solve this issue when you look at our Conops both combat orientated and HADR noting that we are a couple of distant islands in a very big Ocean and whom also an area of responsibility and interest over a large part of that including thousands of populated island scattered over 1/10th of the earths surface?

The MAN trucks are fine as they are essentially a non complex OTS commercial procurement. However I stand by my statement that when it comes to perceptions held by our people who sign the cheques that more complex defence equipment with respect to ongoing logistical support the US contractors are superior to others. That is a major consideration and lesson learnt right from the acquisition stage. Vindicated in the recent T-6 deal which is seem as the recent gold standard in defence procurement from an end user Govt perspective.
I mean nothing out their as in officialy, from govt sources not on here, as the problem has been identified and mentioned for years since the disappearrance of the andovers and has only just made more of a resurgence of late due to the C130 replacement program. I have seen actual suggestions from govt of C17, A400 and C295 (although I hold just as much hope of seeing any of these just yet) but still no mention of CH47, not even a whisper now unless the string pullers are playing secret santa not sure why it has not even rated a mention if it was at least passing thought amongst the beans that be.

We have our (NZs) 'heavy' lift helo, it's the NH90, large cabin, greater external lift, ramp etc otherwise we could have just aqquired the proven and in use blackhawks instead and been away laughing. NH90 is our island hopping, HADR, civil and mil tasking platform and there is always going to be that bigger task but we cover off what we mostly do and find a median capability to best fit and perform the majority of requirements. If it was more crucial to cover heavy lift then we would have a fleet of chinnoks instead of NH90s (again albeit smaller) but this was deemed the best fit with all considerations taken into account and within limits. We are not one of the big boy air forces (in terms of assets) and quite literally cannot afford multiple types for the sake of perceived taskings or one offs so find something that works for us and make best use within those limitations.

If CH47 came at the expense of C235/C295 or C27 then for me I would see more use, benefit and scope in the fixed wing version for our particular requirements (not Aus, US or Chinas etc). To think we would get both, mantain, train and support is again is over reaching in my veiw, we need to live within our means and that will require sacrifice and forgoing certain requirements but we make do.

Yes understand govt obviously would favour a reliable and robust supply chain but again not at the expense of fit for purpose and to be honest I have still seen nothing to suggest we favour one side of the world over the other in terms of recent major aqquisitions. In fact the last major defining supply chain issue was from Kaman so to put euro equipment into a corner seems abit bias, both have issues regardless of origin, cost, distance and prevelance around the world.

I have not heard of NH90 missing any jobs/tasks/missions due to a lack of available numbers or overworking and in conjuction with the A109 fleet actually far exceed what lift we had in the past (16 UH, 5 sioux vs 8 90s, 5 109). Internal space, seating, reliability, performance, all weather all add up to a functional workable squadron, whilst nice to have do we actually at this time require more considering factors such as operating costs, crewing, hours etc, again I'm not fully sold.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Three CH-47s for $180m seems like the deal of the century. The RCAF version was well north of $100m US each and even further north of $100m each for a 20 year support contract.
That $180 million is just for the airframes and nothing else though, as it has simply been tacked on to the previous order for seven CH-47Fs. It can't be compared to the Canadian costs, or even the costs for the original Australian order.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I see MoD has requested a budget increase to enlarge the acquisitions Department to better meet the requirements of NZDF and other Departments so finally a small win, Mr C your get no argument from me on that point reference those policy wonks especially the DPMC Office & Treasury be honest that was the beginning of long slow decline in morale.

CD
An extra 30 who I hope are not just ex NZDF creatures of habit but have wider experience possibly US/OZ/UK/SG/CAN backgrounds ... and Des Ashton is being put out to pasture.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
That $180 million is just for the airframes and nothing else though, as it has simply been tacked on to the previous order for seven CH-47Fs. It can't be compared to the Canadian costs, or even the costs for the original Australian order.
Exactly. The sunk infrastructural & systemic costs have previously been well and truly been spent. These are now the extra quick and cheap ADF pick me ups. CH-47Fs would require a heavy investment to be established in the NZDF not unlike what the NH-90 required.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I suggest you edit your comment. Making comments about a senior civil servant who isn't in a position to response isn't appropriate.
Actually the comment isn't disparaging because in the APDR issue for Dec 15 / Jan 16 in Schoutons article which starts on page 50, it states that Des Ashton is leaving MoD early - mid 2016. The term being "put out to pasture" is just another saying for retirement.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Actually the comment isn't disparaging because in the APDR issue for Dec 15 / Jan 16 in Schoutons article which starts on page 50, it states that Des Ashton is leaving MoD early - mid 2016. The term being "put out to pasture" is just another saying for retirement.
Exactly. In fact there are 2 senior positions which are being restructured.
 

Oberon

Member
Actually, "gardening leave" would be far more disparaging than "put out to pasture". Gardening leave implies that you are accused of doing something wrong and you are suspended (on full pay) awaiting the results of an inquiry. You have to stay at home Monday to Friday waiting for a telephone call from you employer.:mad:
 
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