Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates

[RobWilliams]

Yup, 12 Squadron has another reprieve and will disband in March 2017 rather than March 2016.

Islamic State crisis: UK to extend air strikes over Iraq - BBC News

They were meant to be reformed as a Typhoon squadron, so presumably that'll be postponed otherwise there'd be a small jump in squadron numbers under a different Squadron (which would be great)

 

[dumpster4]

Yup, 12 Squadron has another reprieve and will disband in March 2017 rather than March 2016.

They were meant to be reformed as a Typhoon squadron, so presumably that'll be postponed otherwise there'd be a small jump in squadron numbers under a different Squadron (which would be great)

According to the BBC:

"Compared with the Typhoon, which entered service with the RAF as recently as
2007, the much older Tornado is less manoeuvrable, having been primarily
designed to fly quickly in straight lines at a low level.

But the GR4 has a major advantage over the newer model, says Nick de
Larrinaga, Europe editor of IHS Jane's Defence Weekly: "They can carry the
Brimstone air-to-surface missile which the RAF has found very useful." These are
designed to minimise collateral damage and are capable of hitting moving targets.

Because the Tornado is a relatively large aircraft, it can carry a lot of these - 12 in
four sets of three. As yet, the Typhoons are not equipped to carry them. Until
Brimstone can be integrated with the newer jet, the GR4 has an advantage."

Note: Can't post links yet, otherwise I'd link to the above article.

 

[StobieWan]

Integration for Brimstone is on the way:


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mod-announces-200m-typhoon-capability-upgrade-for-the-raf

 

[fbi098]

I'd hardly contact Puma's your backbone of the RAF's carry fleet. They've got exactly 1 more Puma then they do associated with Merlins, and giving way less lift then your Merlins. They get 17 a lesser amount of Puma's functioning then that they do Chinooks presently.

 

[ngatimozart]

I'd hardly contact Puma's your backbone of the RAF's carry fleet. They've got exactly 1 more Puma then they do associated with Merlins, and giving way less lift then your Merlins. They get 17 a lesser amount of Puma's functioning then that they do Chinooks presently.

And what makes you say that?

 

[RobWilliams]

Cameron plans to double the UK's drone fleet to 20 aircraft, he announced it alongside plans to expand the SAS.

David Cameron promises to 'beef up' the SAS to take the fight to Isil - Telegraph
UK drone fleet to double in fight against IS, says PM - BBC News

Curious thing is he only refers to them as 'Protector' UAVs which can fly 'longer distances with more advanced weapons and equipment'.

Presumably that's what the name of any future procurement of drones will be in the role (akin to Rivet Joint becoming Air Seeker) as part of the 'Scavenger' program. In terms of which drone, that's a blank. It'll probably be announced in the SDSR.

There are kits to make our current Reapers have longer range and endurance so it'd be 10 ER kits and 10 ER drones, or it could be the procurement of something like Mantis. Scavenger is in the 2018/2019 timeframe so a brand new drone seems out of the picture if they want to stick to the timeframe.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Sunday Times has run an article claiming that the MoD has decided to axe any plans for a P8 Poseidon acquisition. However the rest of the article is behind a pay wall and so hopefully someone may have access. Apparently the SDSR is due for release around 23 November with the budget papers a few days later.

The RAF wanted the P8 Poseidon however it is the faceless bureaucracy, mandarins and pollies who decide the actual acquisitions. The UK is facing resurgent Russian naval activity and they do need an airborne platform capable of meeting the requirements that this increased threat throws up. However whilst it has been assumed that the P8 was a shoe in, it was never stated publicly that this was indeed the case. Another point is the validity of the Sunday Times story in the first place. Is it a leak designed to prepare for a policy package like 2010 or is a malicious leak? Any way it is looked at, if there is indeed a leak, then it is politically motivated.

If the story is accepted at face value then only three real options are left to the UK if they intend reentering the MPA arena. These are based on platforms already in service, which are; the Kawasaki P1, the C295MPA and refurbished Lockheed P3 Orions. Each option has its plus and minuses.

However until the 2015 SDSR and accompanied documentation is released all of this is really moot.

 

[StobieWan]

I tend to regard these articles as cautionary leaks or "what if's" - it's like the annual "SAS to be disbanded" or "Red Arrows to be stood down" stories that emerge every year, it gets the "angry from Croydon" mob writing or emailing in.

We'll have to wait for SDSR to know for sure.

If they don't buy P8, I'm storming the houses of Parliament and deposing the government.

Not sure what I'll do for the rest of the weekend tho.

 

[Hone C]

The Sunday Times has run an article claiming that the MoD has decided to axe any plans for a P8 Poseidon acquisition. However the rest of the article is behind a pay wall and so hopefully someone may have access. Apparently the SDSR is due for release around 23 November with the budget papers a few days later.

The article states the need for a replacement for the axed Nimrod to counter recent Russian submarine incursions and to protect the Trident submarines and new Elizabeth class carriers. It suggests that officials have been appalled at the 'fiendishly expensive' cost of the P-8 aircraft, and are looking instead to equip cheaper aircraft for the role. C235 and C-130J were both given a mention, as was the Merlin ASW helicopter, but limitations such as range were also noted.

Possibly a politically motivated piece. The P-8 was being considered as almost a given, but there is a lot of opposition building as well, mainly from the usual UK based competitors and their allies. There has been a bit of loose talk about a 'stitch up' and demanding the MOD go through the established procurement procedures rather than a MOTS purchase. Coming amid all the defence cutbacks here, nothing would surprise me.

 

[A4kscooter]

As the Nimrod replacement is likely to between 5 & 12 aircraft it is sheer madness to allow British companies tender for the contract.
We can't afford to attempt a bespoke aircraft specifically for the UK - when the Nimrod MR4 requirement initially been 25 aircraft, reduced to 21, 18, 12 and finally 9 aircraft costing £3bn - it was a financial disaster especially as the chances of other countries ordering the aircraft was nil.
It has to be the P8, C295MPA or possibly the P1.
Let's hope in the government has some balls and they decide we do need a Nimrod replacement they start renegotiating for the aircraft asap

 

[Hone C]

As the Nimrod replacement is likely to between 5 & 12 aircraft it is sheer madness to allow British companies tender for the contract.
We can't afford to attempt a bespoke aircraft specifically for the UK - when the Nimrod MR4 requirement initially been 25 aircraft, reduced to 21, 18, 12 and finally 9 aircraft costing £3bn - it was a financial disaster especially as the chances of other countries ordering the aircraft was nil.
It has to be the P8, C295MPA or possibly the P1.
Let's hope in the government has some balls and they decide we do need a Nimrod replacement they start renegotiating for the aircraft asap

I would like to see a P-8 purchase but the political requirements are for something that boosts jobs, growth, and potential UK export earnings. The P-8 would have about 5% of its content by value sourced in the UK, compared with 40% for L-3's Bombardier Q400 proposal and a claimed 80% by Lockheed Martin for a C-130J conversion (using Merlin ASW mission systems). European manufacturers like Saab and Airbus (and anything offered by BAE Systems) generally have a massive advantage in this respect.

Given the UKs austerity drive and the resultant constrained defence budget, a converted transport/multi role platform may seem more attractive to the bean counters as well.

We can only hope that the operational requirements trump the political ones, but I for one am not holding my breath.

 

[StobieWan]

Well, one more thing to consider is that the requirements framed by the MOD are for a multi purpose asset, ie, one that can work over land and sea for ISTAR work, and which can integrate with UAVs. That's practically a tailor made description of the P8.

The aircraft itself isn't that expensive for the sort of capability required and the sensor suite available is um..well, I hate to use over used words, but "awesome" in it's older sense fits here.

We'll see but P8 is the correct answer for what we have to do with the mission set.

 

[A4kscooter]

I would like to see a P-8 purchase but the political requirements are for something that boosts jobs, growth, and potential UK export earnings. The P-8 would have about 5% of its content by value sourced in the UK, compared with 40% for L-3's Bombardier Q400 proposal and a claimed 80% by Lockheed Martin for a C-130J conversion (using Merlin ASW mission systems). European manufacturers like Saab and Airbus (and anything offered by BAE Systems) generally have a massive advantage in this respect.

Given the UKs austerity drive and the resultant constrained defence budget, a converted transport/multi role platform may seem more attractive to the bean counters as well.

We can only hope that the operational requirements trump the political ones, but I for one am not holding my breath.

I also would choose the P8 and the C130 conversion has some merits and if similiar in capability to the SC130J may be an acceptable aircraft - but the aircraft are considered well used after Iraq and Afghanistan so unless they choose a conversion to make it compatiable to the SC130J will we end up with tired bespoke maritime reconnaisance aircraft rather than an aircraft such as the P8 which is compatible with the aircraft operated by our main allie which will mature over the next 30 - 40 years

 

[Hone C]

I also would choose the P8 and the C130 conversion has some merits and if similiar in capability to the SC130J may be an acceptable aircraft - but the aircraft are considered well used after Iraq and Afghanistan so unless they choose a conversion to make it compatiable to the SC130J will we end up with tired bespoke maritime reconnaisance aircraft rather than an aircraft such as the P8 which is compatible with the aircraft operated by our main allie which will mature over the next 30 - 40 years

Ngatimozart posted this link over on the RNZAF thread which has a good 7 part discussion of the various options in a UK context:
Future Maritime Patrol - Back to the future P1 - Think Defence

Part 6 deals with the question of a C-130 conversion. It queries the number of serviceable airframes available for conversion, and the option of buying new builds. The later may have become a more expensive proposition after the details of the French purchase were released.

 

[StobieWan]

From the BBC today:

Defence review: 'Strike brigades' to be created by 2025 - BBC News


9 P8 to be announced, looks like Typhoon will be retained in greater numbers than thought, which I am *guessing* means that the Tranche 1's will be brought up to some form of standard approaching Tranche IIa or III and retained rather than disposed of. Also, indications of a commitment to a three figure purchase of F35B.

 

[ngatimozart]

From the BBC today:

Defence review: 'Strike brigades' to be created by 2025 - BBC News


9 P8 to be announced, looks like Typhoon will be retained in greater numbers than thought, which I am *guessing* means that the Tranche 1's will be brought up to some form of standard approaching Tranche IIa or III and retained rather than disposed of. Also, indications of a commitment to a three figure purchase of F35B.

That sounds like a good plan and things looking up for the RAF equipment wise. No mucking around with the MPA which is good.

 

[StobieWan]

I'm liking the MPA deal. "And the last four digits of the security code on the back of the card are..Boom..done.." I thought they'd order four and faff around but "we'll take nine please" is the correct answer.

 

[ngatimozart]

This is the official press release compliments of Defense News PM pledges £178 billion investment in defence kit

 

[RobWilliams]

The additional F-35B squadron is a bit of a hoax, in the graphic demonstrating Joint Force 2025 it has it as two squadrons, those are 617 Squadron and 809 NAS. We knew that before.

IIRC additional Typhoons translates into keeping T1 a bit longer to do QRA.

As for MPA, gone about it the right way.

 

[swerve]

SDSR paper on the MoD website.

Typhoon to be in service until 2040, upgraded. Apart from AESA, upgrades unspecified. Two extra squadrons at least up to 2025, which matches keeping Tranche 1.
All eight C-17 kept, contrary to some rumours, plus 14 of the C-130J. That was a surprise. More than the SAS will need, so presumably also for smaller loads where using an A400M would be a waste. Maybe even (one can hope) a couple could be modified for helicopter refuelling.
Work with French on the child of Taranis & Neuron.