Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[gf0012-aust]

a little logic exercise

collins and replacement are and will be large conventional blue water subs -

In the Pacrim large fleet conventionals are operated by Sth Korea. Japan - they build their own
India is unlikely to shift from Kilos as her larger fleet conventional solution as its a political issue and Indias demands on technology transfer would be completely unacceptable
the other candidate who wanted an export version Collins was Taiwan - so that still won't happen

so who are the potential buyers considering that all others in the region are focused on green to grey/blue subs? answer, zero, nada, zip zilch

any other other potential buyer is driving subs in very different climatic conditions and that means additional engineering constraints and rework.

The USN discovered that with Gotland and her east coast trials

 

[gf0012-aust]

not so much for RAN, but there will be some flow on for other Federal arrangements ....

BHP axes Port Hedland tug operator in favour of non-unionised rival

 

[weegee]

Austral Contract???

I came across this while doing my morning review of the internet.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/30056569/austal-set-to-win-defence-contract/

Has anyone heard of this in the pipeline? Or is it perhaps a bit of west propaganda? Or is it perhaps a bit of a stop gap solution?
I thought that aluminium was a dirty word amongst the RAN?
They do say that they Austral can build in steel, but do they have any real experience in building with steel?

I'd be interested in what peoples thoughts are.

 

[oldsig127]

I came across this while doing my morning review of the internet.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/30056569/austal-set-to-win-defence-contract/

Has anyone heard of this in the pipeline? Or is it perhaps a bit of west propaganda? Or is it perhaps a bit of a stop gap solution?
I thought that aluminium was a dirty word amongst the RAN?
They do say that they Austral can build in steel, but do they have any real experience in building with steel?

I'd be interested in what peoples thoughts are.

Details, details. Aluminium IS a dirty word in the RAN, but the Cape Class PBs belong to Customs, not the Defence Force.

BTW, it may just be a typo, but the company is Austal, not Austral.

I can't think of anything significant they've dne in steel - indeed their business name points directly to their specialisation.

oldsig127

 

[t68]

I came across this while doing my morning review of the internet.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/30056569/austal-set-to-win-defence-contract/

Has anyone heard of this in the pipeline? Or is it perhaps a bit of west propaganda? Or is it perhaps a bit of a stop gap solution?
I thought that aluminium was a dirty word amongst the RAN?
They do say that they Austral can build in steel, but do they have any real experience in building with steel?

I'd be interested in what peoples thoughts are.

I think from memory Assail said that a Cape has been moved from Border Patrol to the RAN to offset the lost hull to fire in QLD.

Hope they mean it's going to Border Patrol than the RAN, it could also be a stop gap like the ADV Ocean Sheild as an interim measure

 

[Gordon Branch]

ADV Cape Byron and ADV Cape Nelson are now based in Cairns with Navy crews.

Defence Images

Patrol Boat (PB) | Royal Australian Navy

 

[ASSAIL]

ADV Cape Byron and ADV Cape Nelson are now based in Cairns with Navy crews.

Defence Images

Patrol Boat (PB) | Royal Australian Navy

Border Force has also recommissioning two of the old Bay Class for operations in the Torres Strait replacing the two gone to Navy

 

[protoplasm]

Border Force has also recommissioning two of the old Bay Class for operations in the Torres Strait replacing the two gone to Navy

Are we at the point where there just not enough ACPB/CCPB hulls total to fulfil all of the roles required of both RAN and Border Force combined? Hence does that indicate that the number of potential OPV will need to be looked at again, or that there will be even more additional orders of CCPB?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Hence does that indicate that the number of potential OPV will need to be looked at again, or that there will be even more additional orders of CCPB?

there won't be any more new hulls getting added on unless someone is prepared to give up some other capability - and thats highly unlikely considering whats already in the pipe

 

[ASSAIL]

Are we at the point where there just not enough ACPB/CCPB hulls total to fulfil all of the roles required of both RAN and Border Force combined? Hence does that indicate that the number of potential OPV will need to be looked at again, or that there will be even more additional orders of CCPB?

There are no hull constraints but there are some manning issues for customs re engineers with the Capes. To go offshore to CI or Ashmore, AMSA has limited the Capes to certain corridors only, until all the manning qual issues are resolved (the border force ships are required to adhere to AMSA manning while navy does not ) Further the Bay's are very suitable for Torres Str while navy has borrowed 2 x Capes.

 

[vonnoobie]

If the article didn't mention the Pacific class replacements as Austal being the front runner then I would have given it some validity seeing as the ACPB's are on there last legs with out some major work (Financially could be cheaper building new boat's maybe).

Fact they say Austal is the front runner for the PCPB replacement program shoot the article in the foot considering I have heard zero about Austal being involed considering it was limited to steel hulled vessel only (Was a company in SA, and a consortium between TKMS, Incat and another Tasmanian company, Maybe others that I have not heard of or recall).

 

[Volkodav]

If the article didn't mention the Pacific class replacements as Austal being the front runner then I would have given it some validity seeing as the ACPB's are on there last legs with out some major work (Financially could be cheaper building new boat's maybe).

Fact they say Austal is the front runner for the PCPB replacement program shoot the article in the foot considering I have heard zero about Austal being involed considering it was limited to steel hulled vessel only (Was a company in SA, and a consortium between TKMS, Incat and another Tasmanian company, Maybe others that I have not heard of or recall).

Serco / DMS have bailed on the ACPB contract, effective 2017, with a renegotiated contract until then. They actually stuck it out far longer than I and many others expected as the original contract, actually the original selection, if not specification, was deeply flawed and poorly conceived.

 

[Bonza]

export options?

seriously, there is so much that has to be considered - esp from some basic construct delimiters sucha s ITARs and proprietary tech that is owned by Australia and is not even made available to our closest allies - and vice versa

what a ridiculous thing to promote

I'm guessing some gullible politician has lapped that one up

Honestly I'm at a loss as to why a country would want to build a whizz-bang submarine capability and then promptly export it to neighbours who either want in on all the tech involved or are unlikely to handle the capability discretely. I don't want India having any clue as to the specs of any new RAN sub, and the same goes for almost every other "potential customer" one would include on the list.

I just wish this bloody submarine tender would go to the Japanese, with an agreement for USN partnership on certain systems, and get off the ground already. And please for the love of god keep the French away from our subs...

 

[gf0012-aust]

I am so over all the new found submarine experts in the oz media. now they've had all their jolly trips to overseas yards they think they know it all - ditto for the pretend defence journos who are also now fully fledged UDT experts

anything but french involvement - and for gods sake someone develop a virus that stops politicians talking schitt about defence matters....

 

[vonnoobie]

anything but french involvement - and for gods sake someone develop a virus that stops politicians talking schitt about defence matters....

Agreed on anything but French, As to stopping pollies speaking BS on defence, Why limit it purely to defence? If we could stop them speaking full stop of what they dont know we wouldnt have to listen to 99% of there current talking

 

[Bonza]

I am so over all the new found submarine experts in the oz media. now they've had all their jolly trips to overseas yards they think they know it all - ditto for the pretend defence journos who are also now fully fledged UDT experts

anything but french involvement - and for gods sake someone develop a virus that stops politicians talking schitt about defence matters....

Well the "defence journalists" have to talk about something now that constantly sledging the F-35 has gone out of fashion and they realised Kopp and Goon had them talking utter bollocks for the better part of a year, right?

 

[Volkodav]

Well the "defence journalists" have to talk about something now that constantly sledging the F-35 has gone out of fashion and they realised Kopp and Goon had them talking utter bollocks for the better part of a year, right?

Well the French are buttering up the WA mafia while the other contenders seem pro using what we already have. I don't understand why so few can understand that work for the subs will be spread around those companies, in those states and countries that are actually able to do the work.

A former colleague suggested that a lot of propulsion work could be undertaken in Bendigo and rail freighted to Adelaide for final assembly. Same if WA does already have the capability to form the grades of steel required to fabricate hull sections then do it there then sea freight the sections to Adelaide.

Why does every politician and their dog believe they are entitled to all of the work?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Agreed on anything but French

I've worked with the French on UDT. I've got a long memory

I wouldn't touch them as partners with a 10 foot pole if I had my 'druthers.

always fascinates me with the current journos extolling their fascination and appreciation of French gear at the maritime level.

None of it stands up to real scrutiny.

sooner or later the visits, the wining and dining have to go through the reality test - and in 25+ years since first having to deal with them up until now - well nothing has changed.

getting seduced by guided tours is very different from working with them.

they make IBM sales people look like Jehovahs Witness proselytisers being out for a picnic

get their gear - don't get their platforms. and for journos to even swallow the swill that their UDT is better than Japans or Germanys just shows how effective the wining and dining is and why you go through a proper process untainted by the hand of the Exec Govt as much as poss

simple test - look at the repeat customer rate of the french compared to the germans in UDT.

 

[t68]

Well the French are buttering up the WA mafia while the other contenders seem pro using what we already have. I don't understand why so few can understand that work for the subs will be spread around those companies, in those states and countries that are actually able to do the work.

A former colleague suggested that a lot of propulsion work could be undertaken in Bendigo and rail freighted to Adelaide for final assembly. Same if WA does already have the capability to form the grades of steel required to fabricate hull sections then do it there then sea freight the sections to Adelaide.

Why does every politician and their dog believe they are entitled to all of the work?

Yep, just look at the UK carrier alliance how it could work without outside influences(politician)

 

[rockitten]

I've worked with the French on UDT. I've got a long memory

I wouldn't touch them as partners with a 10 foot pole if I had my 'druthers.

always fascinates me with the current journos extolling their fascination and appreciation of French gear at the maritime level.

None of it stands up to real scrutiny.
people look like Jehovahs Witness proselytisers being out for a picnic

get their gear - don't get their platforms. and for journos to even swallow the swill that their UDT is better than Japans or Germanys just shows how effective the wining and dining is and why you go through a proper process untainted by the hand of the Exec Govt as much as poss

simple test - look at the repeat customer rate of the french compared to the germans in UDT.

+1

Just wonder GF, the periscope manufacturer in UK ( which many in this forum seems praised their products a lot) is now being owned by Thales, does that count as French or not?
-
To be fair, the French does occasionally came up some good innovations, from ASM to LF dipping sonars. But their marketing practice is just awful.