Flanker Export Thread

Feanor said:
At the first glance you'd think this means that the manufacturer eats the cost of their bad engines. However they built the cost of excessive maintenance into the contract. In other words the MoD overpaid to cover this.
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Says a lot about the organizational culture..
 
alexkvaskov said:
Says a lot about the organizational culture..
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At least this keeps all the tanks running. Prior to this the tank readiness rates were atrocious, especially in rear units, and cadre units. Remember the alternative is a bunch of new T-90As with no engines.
 
Feanor said:
I think that, given some time, Russia will improve the post-sale support considerably. I don't think Russian post-sale support will even be comparable, never mind on par with, Western post-sale support. Nor is post-sale support one of the ways Russia gets customers.

Look at the experience with the OAO Oboronservis for domestic post-sale support. It's been fairly problematic, and it was backed by considerable political power and administrative resource. I.e. the defense establishment was forced to work with the new way of maintaining and repairing military equipment. However it still hasn't become a permanent addition, it's future is in question. And corruption is rife.

EDIT: Case in point. South Korea has been using Ka-32 helos for nearly 20 years. Only now is Kamov setting up a maintenance and service center in South Korea. They might be doing so in hopes of selling more helos there, since the Ka-32 has reportedly performed well, there were some rumors of additional sales being negotiated, but nothing concrete.

Ð’ Южной Корее открылÑÑ Ð¿ÐµÑ€Ð²Ñ‹Ð¹ центр по обÑлуживанию роÑÑийÑких вертолетов Ка-32Т - Сделано у наÑ
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Perhaps Kamov should be searching for a Korean partner for joint production to expand worldwide sales. Certainly South Korea has lots of electronic technology and other aviation related technology that Kamov could benefit from along with manufacturing quality control.
 
Haavarla said:
Allmost there..

Talks on Russian Su-35 Fighter Deliveries to Beijing Ongoing, Contract Being Clarified | Military & Intelligence | RIA Novosti

Seems the Russians are not willing to sell every new systems to China after all.
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Russia needs to decide whether to just accept the fact and take the hard currency for 30-40 Su-35s knowing full well the Chinese will copy them, or bite the bullet and either insist on a larger order or a medium-long term spares/support arrangement.
 
I don't think the airframe itself is the problem here. Its basicly a slightly modified Su-27M airframe.
So its no big loss for Russia if they do.
I mean its not a revolutinary new design is it..
China are after all producing their own Flankers(J-**) series on a contracted deal.
Which mean they can never ever export the new Su-35SK, and if they want to produce it after the initiall deal, they would have to pay revenue for that too, just like they have on the J-11.

The important stuff for the Russians is to decide what kind of tech like 117S engines, Irbis-E Radar, FCS(FBW), comunication and self defence suite etc etc they want to export to China.
 
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A memorandum of understanding has indeed been signed between Indonesia and Rosoboronexport, but keep in mind that an MoU is not a contract.

The order for 48 mentioned in the Jane's article is for the Russian Air Force. It says so right there in the article. The Indonesian order, if it happens, will not be for that many. An order for 6-12 is far more likely.
 
With current politics under this present Administrations..everything can be change even if one of the minister or even President or VP already talked. Nothing definite unless the Purchasing contracts or payment already been conducted.

This Administration is not like the previous one in the matter on implementing policies..anything can be change..That's why present procurements or anthing new equipment comming..are basically resulted from previous administrations contracts or plan..

That's why, I'm not putting this on Indonesian AF thread yet..Since with this present Administrations you can only be certain if the payment already been commenced..Before that, they can change anything on their whim..

Ooo well price of popular democracy..an administration being voted based only on popularity and not solid track record..:(
 
tonnyc said:
A memorandum of understanding has indeed been signed between Indonesia and Rosoboronexport, but keep in mind that an MoU is not a contract.

The order for 48 mentioned in the Jane's article is for the Russian Air Force. It says so right there in the article. The Indonesian order, if it happens, will not be for that many. An order for 6-12 is far more likely.
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Indeed, no contracts yet. But they start now to becoming more serious after many years of announcements that "they-wish-to-plan-to-buy-in-the-near-future some Su-35s.....-maybe".

They plan to order a complete squadron of 16 aircrafts the coming years, but it looks like the aircrafts will be delivered in small batches, spread over many years. Like they did in the past.

Ooo well price of popular democracy..an administration being voted based only on popularity and not solid track record..
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They voted for the o-so-friendly-humble-and-popular Jokowi, but in fact they voted for his big boss, Megawati....
:-D
 
Indonesioa, could very well be ordering 48 jets, but over a longer time frame.
They wll buy them in batches, so that the expendature of defence Budget is locket within its current Level.
IMO they spread the expences over several years.

Other Flanker nations has done the exact same too, like Vietnam, Malysia..
 
Haavarla said:
Indonesia, could very well be ordering 48 jets, but over a longer time frame.
They wll buy them in batches, so that the expendature of defence Budget is locket within its current Level.
IMO they spread the expences over several years.

Other Flanker nations has done the exact same too, like Vietnam, Malysia..
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That's possible but is basically baseless guessing. Again, the Jane's article you quoted earlier said the order of 48 is for the Russian Air Force. The blog Feanor linked said it's to replace the F-5 squadron, which had 16 aircraft. If you look further, you can find articles from Sputniknews mentioning one squadron, which in the Indonesian Air Force is usually taken to mean 16.

There is no source for the number 48 for the Indonesian Air Force's Su-35. I am guessing that you saw the number for the Russian Air Force and assumed the same for the Indonesian Air Force. But there's just no ground for that assumption. Yes, it's possible that eventually Indonesia ends up with 48 Su-35 over the years, but it's also possible the final number will end up 32 or 60 or 16 or 0 or 180.
 
Well, fine its all speculation.

As to more speculation.
Could Indonesia be thinking on returning(sell back) their oldest Flanker Inventory in Exchange for newer Flankers With increased capabilities?

It has happend With Countries like India, they returned their first batch of Su-30KN, and Russia overhauled and modernized them and re-sold them to a Third customer.
 
Haavarla said:
Well, fine its all speculation.

As to more speculation.
Could Indonesia be thinking on returning(sell back) their oldest Flanker Inventory in Exchange for newer Flankers With increased capabilities?

It has happend With Countries like India, they returned their first batch of Su-30KN, and Russia overhauled and modernized them and re-sold them to a Third customer.
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To the best of my knowledge there is no plan to do so. Indonesia did not ask for it and Russia did not offer it. Who knows if there's some backroom deals being negotiated right now, but so far, there's no indication that a trade-in is even considered.

India's case, as best as I can tell, was not a trade-in. Rather, the Su-30K was being loaned for free as a sweetener for the Su-30 MKI deal. After 10 years they were returned. India did not get any money or credit for returning those Flankers. They weren't India's in the first place.

Sorry I can't help you more. I hear rumors on why Indonesia isn't modernizing the older Flankers (dead-end, end of service life, or not worth it) and this may explain why a trade-in isn't considered, but the sources are not reliable.
 
Well, what i have heard was that sinse India was paying most for the MKI R&D, and the Irkut was produce those Su-30KN until the MKI got ready, not sure it was even Irkut, might have been KnAAZ. tought.

I have no Clue if they was 100% free or not.
 
tonnyc said:
To the best of my knowledge there is no plan to do so. Indonesia did not ask for it and Russia did not offer it. Who knows if there's some backroom deals being negotiated right now, but so far, there's no indication that a trade-in is even considered.

India's case, as best as I can tell, was not a trade-in. Rather, the Su-30K was being loaned for free as a sweetener for the Su-30 MKI deal. After 10 years they were returned. India did not get any money or credit for returning those Flankers. They weren't India's in the first place.

Sorry I can't help you more. I hear rumors on why Indonesia isn't modernizing the older Flankers (dead-end, end of service life, or not worth it) and this may explain why a trade-in isn't considered, but the sources are not reliable.
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End of service life? Their Su-27s are much younger then the Russian ones. And Russia has upgraded and will continue to operate, Su-27SM variants.
 
Well there are also rumours talking the existing 16 SU27/SU30 will be converted to all 16 SU30 MK2..at this moment if not mistaken only 9 from 16 are SU30 MK2..the other 3 SU27 SKM, 2 SU 27SK and 2 SU30MK..

I think perhaps those 4 original 1st batch order (2 Su27 and 2 Su30) that might be tonnyc heard rumours they are not in really suitable conditions for further upgrades.

Again is rumours only..However it's logical if 1 sq of F5 being replaced by SU35, then the other existing sq being converted to all SU30MK2..

But then again of planned 10 combat sq, TNI AU only have 8..with:
1 sq of F5 (being talked but not contracted yet with SU35)
1sq of hybrid Su27 and Su30 (being rumoured to be full Su30MK2),
2 sq of F-16 A/B/C/D..(being planned for all falcon star standard with blk 50+Avionics),
1sq of T/A 50,
1sq of Super Tucano as COIN,
2 sq of Hawk 100/200,
Plus with planned 2 new combat sq.

Those 2 Hawk, and 2 New combat sq is really what, LM, Sukhoi, SAAB, and Eurofighter aiming for..not just the F5 replacement..Especially with KFX/IFX project now being reviewed for Indonesian participation on the program by Jokowi's administration.

But then again..this is Indonesia and more importantly this is Jokowi's adminstration..an administration which not yet 1 year but full with inconsistant policy changes track record..so anything still can happen..
 
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