Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Naval tech regs are pretty much set in stone, irrespective what a manufacturers brochure might say. I'm not familiar with the requirements for certifying landing craft so can't say if the way the RAN is treating them is any different to the way the Armada is.
Just a thought re the LCM1E

Add a three and a half metre block extension to it's hull which will necessatate cutting the craft in half. This should add about ten tonnes extra lift to the crafts carrying capacity and still enable four to fit inside the Canberra's well deck.Unfortunately will need to sacrifice the RHIB's located behind the lengthened LCM's. This will now make the LCM-1E closer in length to the failed LCM2000 but still not in the same class as the UK's Mk 10.
Not ideal but this small increase may make the difference when carrying a MBT over the wave line or in higher wave states.
Then again it may just be a completely daft and overly expensive concept.

Just a thought S.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@Volkodav
Where do you get the 18-20 tons of possible weight savings on the Namer from?
That's alot of armor of which much might be structurally implemented into the Namer chassis and not be modular. And don't forget that a Namer may lack the heavy turret of the Merkava IV but the hull is also higher adding more surface to be armoured. And the part of the roof where the turret is located on a Merkava IV also needs to be armoured.

In other news it looks like the Lithuanians are really buying Boxers. And they'll buy them with 30mm turrets with deliveries starting in 2017. I've only seen a german google translation of a Lithuanian news article so far and the exact turret chosen is not mentioned.

But it means that getting a Boxer with a turret into service would result in Australianot having to shoulder the risks of implementation alone or as a first.

Edit:
I tried to decipher the meaning of the google translation a little bit more and it looks like the Puma turret got chosen. It will also feature Javelin capability. While we are integrating Spike into the turret this Javelin option will make the Puma turret very versatile for a customer. The 40mm CTA turret by GD got also tested but lacked certain tests and certifications and so was deemed too risky by Lithuania.

VBCI and Piranha 3 and 5 where looked at, too.

The deal is for 70 vehicles but no infos on prices in the article.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
@Volkodav
Where do you get the 18-20 tons of possible weight savings on the Namer from?
That's alot of armor of which much might be structurally implemented into the Namer chassis and not be modular. And don't forget that a Namer may lack the heavy turret of the Merkava IV but the hull is also higher adding more surface to be armoured. And the part of the roof where the turret is located on a Merkava IV also needs to be armoured.

In other news it looks like the Lithuanians are really buying Boxers. And they'll buy them with 30mm turrets with deliveries starting in 2017. I've only seen a german google translation of a Lithuanian news article so far and the exact turret chosen is not mentioned.

But it means that getting a Boxer with a turret into service would not mean that Australoa has to shoulder the risks of implementation alone or as a first.
I subtracted the estimated weight of a Merkava I turret as it was all I could find. I believe the Merkava IV turret would be heavier as everything I have read indicates it is far better protected than on the earlier vehicles. Not the most scientific method but all I had. Also the armour on the Namer, like the Merkava IV is completely modular and as I understand it much of it is actually interchangeable with that of the Merkava IV (with the obvious exception of the upper hull side and troop compartment roof. As it stands the Namer is much more heavily armoured than the other vehicles likely to be offered for LAND 400 which is why it is so much heavier, cut the protection back and the weight will drop. This is the same as for the Puma.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Let's get a bit of realism into the discussion. No one would design or buy an LCM that was limited in its prime capability to Beaufort 2 - winds from 4-7 kts or even Beaufort 3 - 8-12 kts.
Next, if there were peace time limits set, which I'm sure there are, they would not necessarily be enforced during combat.
Again, what Commander would commence an amphibious operation without regard to weather conditions?.

These small craft were designed to operate up to 20+ miles from the LHD and I suggest in most cases in the Trade wind belt (the most likely area of ops) average wind speeds in the littorals is somewhere between Beaufort 3 & 5 ie 8 - 24 kts.
Great to see some old fashion sense being made skip.
As an ex parra, our old parachutes, the T10B-D had a safe peace time deployment of 1000ft AGL.
I Have jumps logged at 850,750 and 650ft AGL, at night.
The MC1 had a safty deployment of 1500ft AGL, I have a jump logged at 750ft AGL.
The peace time parameters are a bit like best before dates.....
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There's been a fair bit of talk with regard to numbers of dismounts in IFVs and the effect on LAND 400. I thought I'd a link to the a RAND report that looks at this same problem for the USA. Not quite everything is relevant to Australia, but a lot of it is.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR100/RR184/RAND_RR184.pdf
Very interesting, thanks for that.

Correct me if I am wrong but that paper seems to indicate that a vehicle such as the Namer is perhaps the right way to go. May an alternative would be a mix of four turretless RWS equipped 2+9 man carrier vehicles and two turreted 3+6 (or less) scout or DFS vehicles could be a possibility. I am sort of thinking of the CAV troop of four ALSAV25 and two ASLAV-PC per troop, just change the balance for the Infantry carrier troop to fours PC and two gun cars.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I found this discussion and the RAND report very interesting, thanks all.
However the most confusing aspect for this non Grunt is - if years of study based on many combat experiences dictates a Squad size of 9-11 for effective "fire and manoeuvre", why does the USMC continue with a doctrine of a 13 man squad? They have been through all the same combat experience.
Finally, what is Australian Army doctrine and has that been subjected to many revisions and adjustment after VN/Iraq/Afghan?
 

FoxtrotRomeo999

Active Member
I found this discussion and the RAND report very interesting, thanks all.
However the most confusing aspect for this non Grunt is - if years of study based on many combat experiences dictates a Squad size of 9-11 for effective "fire and manoeuvre", why does the USMC continue with a doctrine of a 13 man squad? They have been through all the same combat experience.
Finally, what is Australian Army doctrine and has that been subjected to many revisions and adjustment after VN/Iraq/Afghan?
I thought the Cavalry troop only had 5 assault pioneers in one ASLAV transport and three ASLAV-25s. If so, load is not an issue for the CAV vehicles.

Infantry, on the other hand have 4 man units (bricks), a platoon consisting of 10 of these - command, 6 infantry and 3 support with a section comprising 8 infantry. So x8 carries would make sense, though a x6 carry would get a reinforced section (add a support brick) in two vehicles plus x4 crew so maybe close enough (especially if the vehicles can also provide supporting fire).

Have a great day, FR
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I found this discussion and the RAND report very interesting, thanks all.
However the most confusing aspect for this non Grunt is - if years of study based on many combat experiences dictates a Squad size of 9-11 for effective "fire and manoeuvre", why does the USMC continue with a doctrine of a 13 man squad? They have been through all the same combat experience.
Finally, what is Australian Army doctrine and has that been subjected to many revisions and adjustment after VN/Iraq/Afghan?
I believe the USMC continue to use three fire teams, two for maneuver and assault, one specifically for fire support. Been a long time and I am happy to be corrected by anyone more knowledgeable or up to date than me but I believe the way they usually operate is the fire teams forward and the support team to the rear, when engaged the fire team in contact get to cover and return fire while the support team move into position and provide suppressing fire to enable the first team to withdraw and join an assault with the other fire team.

Again, as I understand it, this is why the USMC is introducing a magazine fed automatic rifle (HK416 based) to replace the Minimis in the fire teams, while retaining the LMGs or even GPMGs as support weapons. Also look at the capacities of the USMCs assault transports, i.e. the Seaknight, AAAV7, MV-22, they are all sized appropriately to lift the larger fully equipped squads.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Very interesting, thanks for that.

Correct me if I am wrong but that paper seems to indicate that a vehicle such as the Namer is perhaps the right way to go. May an alternative would be a mix of four turretless RWS equipped 2+9 man carrier vehicles and two turreted 3+6 (or less) scout or DFS vehicles could be a possibility. I am sort of thinking of the CAV troop of four ALSAV25 and two ASLAV-PC per troop, just change the balance for the Infantry carrier troop to fours PC and two gun cars.
It doesn’t necessarily advocate Namer, simply a vehicle that can lift an entire section in one go. As I said, not everything ports across to Australia, not least the fact that an Australian platoon is four sections, not three. The MSS, being 12 strong, is never going to fit in a single vehicle. Therefore we are always going to have to split at least that section across multiple vehicles.

A mix of turreted (IFV) and non-turreted (APC) vehicles has been looked at as a solution to the problem. One possible COA is having a single company lift of turreted IFVs, with the remaining vehicles being non-turreted APCs. The idea being that the IFV company would lead the assault with tanks and break-in on the objective, with the remaining dismounts being transported to the objective in APCs when the threat is much lessoned. This would save a lot of resources in terms of both money (less vehicles, less expensive vehicles) and people (no crew needed for the non-existent extra vehicles). The opportunity cost would be an extreme loss of flexibility (can’t swap out the companies, only two close-combat capable sub-units in a brigade) and much less resilience (if the IFV company takes casualties in the first assault, which it will, you lose the ability to break-in on another objective). One distinct negative against this possibility is the fact that is was modelled using simulation, and the IFV/APC mix of vehicles sustained 35% more casualties than an all IFV force structure. That’s pretty damning when the whole point of Land400 is to protect the force.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
Finally a decision!

Australian Defence Magazine

NIOA wins 40mm grenade launcher contracts
28 Jul 2015

NIOA has been awarded contracts by the Commonwealth of Australia for the supply and support of the next generation of Light Weight Automatic Grenade Launchers (LWAGL) for the Australian Army.

Under the Land 40 Phase 2 project, NIOA will deliver the MK47 40mm Automatic Light Weight Grenade Launcher, fitted with Lightweight Video Sight (LVS2) sighting system. The advanced LVS2 provides a new level of capability for light weapon sighting systems with integrated colour video and thermal imaging.

Delivery of the LWAGL systems and spares will commence in mid-2016, with systems being systematically introduced into service across the ADF.

NIOA’s managing director, Mr Robert Nioa, said “we are very excited that NIOA has been awarded these contracts to supply and support the MK47 40mm ALGL with LVS2. With the award of these contracts, NIOA will become Australia’s only Australian-owned contractor capable of supporting the bulk of the Commonwealth’s infantry, direct fire and medium calibre weapon systems.

"NIOA’s engineering and support capability developed under these contracts will become a major component of the Priority Industry Capability (PIC) for support of infantry weapons in Australia, and provides the Commonwealth with a viable option for the support of these weapon fleets," Nioa said.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Finally, what is Australian Army doctrine and has that been subjected to many revisions and adjustment after VN/Iraq/Afghan?
I can't speak for Vietnam, but there haven't actually been all the many lessons learned in Iraq and Afghanistan for the simple reason we haven't used doctrinal organisations there. We haven't used full 40 man infantry platoons, nor have we used doctrinal motorised/mechanised doctrine. Some things have been verified though:

A key lesson is the usefulness of the four-man fire team as the basic building block of the infantry. Every formed body deployment from about 2006 on used the four-man fire team to build whatever organisation was required, and proved extremely flexible. Fire teams were added, subtracted, moved, re-assigned, re-roled and whatever else was required constantly, and proved very effective.

Another lesson I personally think was learned was the ability of a section commander to command multiple fire teams as well as his own. When the 2012 organisation (8-man sections) first came about, there was a lot of discussion about whether we were expecting too much of the section commander, as he had to both command his own fire team as well as the other fire teams within the section. Most other Army's (including both the US Army and USMC) have the section/squad commander not being part of a fire team, so he can concentrate soley on commanding the section and not having to worry about commanding a fire team as well (hence 9/13 man squads compared to 8 man Australian sections). Everything I have seen though suggests that Australian section commanders can handle commanding multiple fire teams as well as their own, which validates the 8 man section.

Something I don't think has been validated though is the 12 man MSS. The 40 man platoon with three rifle sections and an MSS is excellent IF you are conducting conventional war fighting (platoon attacks etc) and IF you have the whole platoon together. If you are conducting tasks other than platoon attacks and have platoons split up, the unique organisation of the MSS can actually reduce flexibility and be a liability. Personally I think a better organisation would be a 36 man platoon, with 4 identical rifle sections. You can still use the arms room approach and have the rifle sections able to access Mag 58s/tripods and 84s when required, and you'd gain a lot more flexibility without (outside of the ideal world in which doctrine exists) losing many real-world advantages of the MSS. I know there has been some talk of this possibility at RAR conferences etc, but I don't think it has gained much traction.
 

Goknub

Active Member
That's an interesting insight into the MSS. I understood the concept to be that it could be broken down and the bricks allocated to the other sections, creating 12 man sections in similar fashion to the US Marines.

Replacing the MSS with a standard 8 man section would seem to reduce that as an inbuilt capability. The arms rooms approach would essentially replace the MSS as the means of allocating heavier weapons to the sections/platoon. Is that an accurate assessment?

Is there a reason it hasn't gained much traction? Is this a common held view that is only just being raised or is it still one of many ideas? Could the MSS manning be returned to a weapons platoon or even a weapons company? I'm curious of the 2012 concept in general and how it is perceived now that it has been around for a few years.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Very interesting, thanks for that.

Correct me if I am wrong but that paper seems to indicate that a vehicle such as the Namer is perhaps the right way to go. May an alternative would be a mix of four turretless RWS equipped 2+9 man carrier vehicles and two turreted 3+6 (or less) scout or DFS vehicles could be a possibility. I am sort of thinking of the CAV troop of four ALSAV25 and two ASLAV-PC per troop, just change the balance for the Infantry carrier troop to fours PC and two gun cars.
Agreed. Paper was well thought out

I concur with your idea, basically give the platoon leader a fire support and maneuver elements based on his vehicle make up
 

Ballistic

Member
As there is no actual IFV capable of meeting Army's requirements for 8 dismounts, and looking at options outside of just "making do", could the bidders be asked to look at solutions that include lengthening the hulls, as was done with the M113AS4, to increase internal seating capacity? Or would that solution be deemed to risky?
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I can't speak for Vietnam, but there haven't actually been all the many lessons learned in Iraq and Afghanistan for the simple reason we haven't used doctrinal organisations there. We haven't used full 40 man infantry platoons, nor have we used doctrinal motorised/mechanised doctrine. Some things have been verified though:

A key lesson is the usefulness of the four-man fire team as the basic building block of the infantry. Every formed body deployment from about 2006 on used the four-man fire team to build whatever organisation was required, and proved extremely flexible. Fire teams were added, subtracted, moved, re-assigned, re-roled and whatever else was required constantly, and proved very effective.

Another lesson I personally think was learned was the ability of a section commander to command multiple fire teams as well as his own. When the 2012 organisation (8-man sections) first came about, there was a lot of discussion about whether we were expecting too much of the section commander, as he had to both command his own fire team as well as the other fire teams within the section. Most other Army's (including both the US Army and USMC) have the section/squad commander not being part of a fire team, so he can concentrate soley on commanding the section and not having to worry about commanding a fire team as well (hence 9/13 man squads compared to 8 man Australian sections). Everything I have seen though suggests that Australian section commanders can handle commanding multiple fire teams as well as their own, which validates the 8 man section.

Something I don't think has been validated though is the 12 man MSS. The 40 man platoon with three rifle sections and an MSS is excellent IF you are conducting conventional war fighting (platoon attacks etc) and IF you have the whole platoon together. If you are conducting tasks other than platoon attacks and have platoons split up, the unique organisation of the MSS can actually reduce flexibility and be a liability. Personally I think a better organisation would be a 36 man platoon, with 4 identical rifle sections. You can still use the arms room approach and have the rifle sections able to access Mag 58s/tripods and 84s when required, and you'd gain a lot more flexibility without (outside of the ideal world in which doctrine exists) losing many real-world advantages of the MSS. I know there has been some talk of this possibility at RAR conferences etc, but I don't think it has gained much traction.

Just wondering

Are they still looking at quad bikes to carry heavy weapons in the new 40 man platoons or has that gone by the way side. Can understand wanting heavy support but always felt that 50 cal and 40mm AGL belonged either on vehicles or at battalion level and allocated if needed.
Whats the latest

Regards S
 

Trackmaster

Member
It doesn’t necessarily advocate Namer, simply a vehicle that can lift an entire section in one go. As I said, not everything ports across to Australia, not least the fact that an Australian platoon is four sections, not three. The MSS, being 12 strong, is never going to fit in a single vehicle. Therefore we are always going to have to split at least that section across multiple vehicles.

A mix of turreted (IFV) and non-turreted (APC) vehicles has been looked at as a solution to the problem. One possible COA is having a single company lift of turreted IFVs, with the remaining vehicles being non-turreted APCs. The idea being that the IFV company would lead the assault with tanks and break-in on the objective, with the remaining dismounts being transported to the objective in APCs when the threat is much lessoned. This would save a lot of resources in terms of both money (less vehicles, less expensive vehicles) and people (no crew needed for the non-existent extra vehicles). The opportunity cost would be an extreme loss of flexibility (can’t swap out the companies, only two close-combat capable sub-units in a brigade) and much less resilience (if the IFV company takes casualties in the first assault, which it will, you lose the ability to break-in on another objective). One distinct negative against this possibility is the fact that is was modelled using simulation, and the IFV/APC mix of vehicles sustained 35% more casualties than an all IFV force structure. That’s pretty damning when the whole point of Land400 is to protect the force.
Another twist in the Land 400 Phase 2 saga.

An extension granted, so that STKinetics of Singapore, teamed with Elbit can be involved.
And in passing, what is it with South Australian Government officials...throwing in a Tony Abbot line and "questioning the timing of the extension"
Is there a default position in Adelaide that they have a God given right to all defence contracts?

The Australian
July 30...Meredith Booth.

"The second phase of a tender process for the army’s $10 billion next-generation armoured veh*icle fleet has been extended so that a Singaporean government-owned company can bid, surprising the defence industry and sparking claims Tony Abbott has done a secret deal in Singapore.

The tender for the lucrative LAND 400 Phase 2 — Mounted Combat Reconnaissance Capability, due to close on August 6, has attracted interest from three credible consortia in BAE Systems with Patria, General Dynamics Land Systems with Thales Australia and Germany’s Rheinmetall with Northrop Grumman.

But the four-week extension, which came just three days after the Prime Minister returned from Singapore on June 30 for private talks with Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, has accommodated a fourth bidder, believed by the industry to have withdrawn from the race.

Singaporean government-owned defence company STKin*etics will team with Israeli firm Elbit Systems to tender for the project and was happy with the new September 6 deadline on what had “been a very aggressive schedule from the start”, *Australian-based Elbit executive Grant Sanderson said.

Bidders will be shortlisted by March to provide three of their armoured vehicles for an Australian trial where one will be tested to the point of destruction.

The winning bidder will supply 225 armoured vehicles with better firepower, protection and mobility to replace the army’s 8x8 ASLAVs (Australia Light Armoured Vehicles) which have seen service in Afghanistan, Iraq and East Timor and are due for retirement around 2021.

They also would be well placed for phase three of the project, to replace the army’s 700 venerable tracked M-113s, awaiting the go-ahead in the forthcoming white paper.

The Defence Minister, Kevin Andrews, confirmed the tender extension in an interview with The Australian in Adelaide this week, but the Prime Minister’s Office yesterday would not comment on whether the tender *extension was raised with Mr Abbott by Singapore.

“There was a desire to have a bit more time,’’ Mr Andrews said.

“If it’s just a few weeks in a project that’s going to have a life of 40 years then there can’t be any complaints that ‘we were *excluded before we got a chance to put a bid in’.”

However, South Australia’s Defence Teaming Centre chief executive, Chris Burns, questioned the timing of the extension and lack of consultation with bidders.

“The timing of the extension led to speculation in the industry that there was a relationship *between the PM’s visit to Singapore and Elbit’s renewed bid,’’ Mr Burns said.

“The first time they put an *extension out they told people that they were doing it and *consulted.

“This time, they put it out there without any collaboration or consultation and that makes people suspicious.

“People start getting doubts and looking at the PMs travel program.”
 
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vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
While I can understand there being concern of some back room deal one shouldn't be jumping to conclusions.

Looking at the product line up that ST Kinetics has could be in our own interest in getting on board as some of the stuff does meet our criteria and while possibly not being able to produce 100% in Australia could be a strong chance of fitting into the global supply chain for there vehicles which provides better long term work rather then limited short term work if only for Australian based vehicles.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Thales F90 assault rifle poised to enter mainstream Australian service - IHS Jane's 360

Janes have a good update on progress with the Steyr replacement.

As a kiwi I'm still intrigued that NZ didn't even short-list this weapon for consideration, given that both sides of the Tasman have pretty much always fielded the same rifle. Instead, the upgraded Austrian Steyr is in the mix for evaluation.

Individual Weapon Replacement [Ministry of Defence NZ]

A couple of years back, NZDF sought bids to upgrade part of the NZ Steyr fleet. According to rumour Lithgow was the only respondent, and NZ was mightily unimpressed by the Thales pricing. I don't know if that was a factor or not, but it seems a bit disproportionate if true.
 
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