Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Not trying to be argumentative, but your point seems to relate to obselescence of the aircraft leading to an upgrade requirement, whereas if they are just shagged, a refurbishment rather than upgrade would be all that was needed if the airframe offereds operational advantage over the newer MRH90 for SOF.
A refurbishment of an old helicopter is eminently feasable, and with so many of that generation still in service all over the world, maybe Army would be happy to use refurbished Blackhawk/Seahawk for SOF requirements.
Basically my point is it is entirely feasable to get a good outcome from refurbishing an old helicopter, but much more difficult to run on a tired fixed wing aircraft fleet.
Older airframes cost more to maintain than new ones. There is a roughly "U" shaped curve for life cycle costs, it's one of the tenets of systems engineering. Basically costs are high as a new platform enters service but as it passes through IOC, FOC and become well established the costs reduce until the platform starts to show its age. Once the fully mature platform is no longer in production and perhaps superseded in its parent service as it starts to age more problems appear, more parts are consumed but at the same time may be harder, or at least more expensive, to get. There will be corrosion and fatigue issues, obsolescence, upgrades that force compromises in other areas, general wear and tear.

Basically the curve bottoms out then starts tracking up as the various factors inevitably begin, one after the other, with operating costs increasing more and more until it become unsustainable. At this point the platform must be upgraded or replaced, it's not just a case refurbishing the airframe and mechanical components, you will usually need to start replacing major components just to address obsolescence simply so you can continue to afford to maintain the platform. These upgrades, even if they deliver no increase in actual capability, cost a lot of money so actually increase the ascent of the cost curve. If the upgrade is able to improve maintainability and even reliability (capability too but this is about cost) it still cost a lot but will never provide the benefits of a new platform.

At the end of the day you are better off buying new, even if that "new" is a rebuild on the production line such as a CH-47F, UH-1Y or even M-1A1 (orA2) SEP, as they are pretty much indistinguishable from the new examples that often share the same line. Old equipment costs far more to retain than people realise and the older it gets the more expensive it gets, that is the simple truth.
 

winnyfield

New Member
Just read an article about the Dutch special forces getting a new rifle that fires the blackout round. Does anyone know if there is any Australian interest in this new round?

Dutch special forces to buy carbines chambered in 300 BLK - IHS Jane's 360
Niche purchase. The .300 BLK (7.62x35mm) is equivalent to the AK47 round (7.62x39mm) ie. fat & slow; is valued for being very quiet when using suppressed rifles. Other than that, it doesn't offer anything that can't be had in 5.56 nato and 7.62 nato rifles.

btw/ POTD: 12″ Barreled HK417 - The Firearm Blog
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Refurbishment works when there is an off the shelf upgrade and life extension available, they tend to fall over or blowout when you go it alone, especially on a small fleet.
Agree completely.

I think it would be pointless, and rather expensive too, for Australia to go it alone and upgrade / life extend a relatively small number of the existing Blackhawk fleet for another 20 or 30 years of service.

Sure a rather basic refurbishment can be done to the aircraft, refurbish the major components such as engines, transmission, rotor head, etc, refurbish the airframe, fix any corrosion or structural cracks, and yes at the end of the day you could end up with a near zero timed airframe, engines and transmission, but the aircraft will be full of 30 year old components.

One problem that I understand the Army has had to deal with in recent years is that our Blackhawks use 'analogue' engine control units instead of modern 'digital' (that everyone else uses) and that of course leads to issues with obtaining spare parts, so you go ahead and replace them during the refurbishment too, but that is the thin edge of the wedge, where do you start and stop in replacing old and obsolete components and systems??

Next thing would probably be to replace the cockpit with a modern digital system as used in the UH-60M, for example, no doubt you would want to replace all the very old and out of production obsolete systems, but how much is all this going to cost and where is the facility in this country to produce a very small production run?

The project is starting to sound like the old story about "Grandad's axe", it's 60 years old now, still works as well as the day it was bought, yes its had four new handles and two new heads in that time, but it's still Grandad's same old axe (not!).

If you look at the MH-60R project, yes the first few airframes were remanufactured B's, but they scrapped that idea and went with all new construction, not to say there isn't success stories with large scale remanufacture, the Chinook is the perfect example.

From A to D all used the same reconditioned airframe and added new components, but with the current F standard the situation is now completely different, yes a 'new' or 'refurbished' F can be purchased (apparently the difference in prices is only a few million, not tens of millions), but even the refurbished F's don't use the previous airframe, it's scrapped, and replaced with a whole brand new monolithic airframe (the major airframe components are machined out of single pieces rather than riveted together), it's only the major systems such as engines and transmission that are zero timed and installed onto the new airframe.

As I understand it, the current UH-60M also uses monolithic airframe construction too, if Australia was to go ahead with a refurbishment of say, 12 -18, of the best of the Blackhawk airframes, we would end up with an orphan hybrid fleet that I could imagine would be expensive and difficult to maintain as they age into the future, just doesn't seem worth it, economically or for practical reasons either.

So what’s the solution for the Special Forces to have the appropriate aircraft to support its operations?

Obviously there is the MRH-90, yes there are question marks hanging over the MRH-90’s, but it will be interesting to see where the French get to with modifying their NH-90’s for special forces work, if that all fails and their experience isn’t satisfactory for Australian operations, the obvious candidate would appear to be an appropriate number of new built UH-60M’s, with whatever special forces specific modifications that are required, and possibly a number of MH-47G’s too, if the requirement was additionally appropriate too.

So what do we do with the old Blackhawks and Seahawks?

Back in 2010 ‘Team Romeo’, when they were bidding the MH-60R for the Seahawk replacement, proposed that they would consider setting up a facility (from memory I believe they were suggesting Nowra as the site) to ‘refurbish and de-militarise’ the combined 50 retired Blackhawks and Seahawks for on sale to various approved police and paramilitary organisations, but since that time I haven’t heard one word about that actually becoming reality (sort of like a politicians promise prior to an election, but disappears after!), so I wouldn’t be holding my breath about that one ever happening.

That really only leaves a couple of options, keep a few selected airframes of each type for aviation museums and try and sell the remainder to another country (that the US would approve of) for the best price possible and let them become someone else problem, or if the remainder can’t be sold, then that only leave stripping and scrapping.
 

Goknub

Active Member
Touching on Land 400, the deadline has reportedly been extended again to September 3.

BAE and SAAB have also teamed up with the Patria as their offer.

With Rheinmetal's Boxer already announced that leaves GD to choose whether to offer the LAV 6.0 or the Piranha 5.

In terms of raw weight the Boxer and Piranha 5 would appear to have the advantage but it will be interesting to see when it all comes out.
 
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Stock

Member
Touching on Land 400, the deadline has reportedly been extended again to September 3.

BAE and SAAB have also teamed up with the Patria as their offer.

With Rheinmetal's Boxer already announced that leaves GD to choose whether to offer the LAV 6.0 or the Piranha 5.

It terms of raw weight the Boxer and Piranha 5 would appear to have the advantage but it will be interesting to see when it all comes out.
No explanation for the extended RFT close date has been offered by the Commonwealth, but it leaves the window of opportunity open for another bid team to get things squared away and submit a tender response. Expect movement from Elbit-STK.

GD has offered very little visibility about what it will offer, but fairly sure they will be obliged to put forward both MOTS and MOTS Plus proposals.

The issue they have with LAV 6.0 is that it is a legacy platform with a max GVM of 28 tonnes, at least 4 tonnes less than the lightest of the other known CRV contenders. As such, the vehicle's capacity to accept the required protection level and subsequent growth margin is questionable. It is effectively an upgrade of an existing vehicle (LAV III) - the program is called the LAV III Upgrade Project (LAV UP). The Canadians will begin seeking a replacement for LAV 6.0 around 2030 or earlier (planned date for withdrawal from service is 2035).

The CRV is intended to remain in service another 20 years beyond that.

I'm guessing a MOTS offer of LAV 6.0, with Piranha 5 or LAV 700 as MOTS Plus.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What about the GD / Steyr Daimler Puch Pandur II 8x8?

Not the most widely known vehicle of the type but its comparable to others on offer and in service with a number of European armies. It could make an interesting pairing with the ASCOD for the AIFV role. Also the ASCOD is the basis of the UK Scout SV which may make the CT40 turret an option.
 

Stock

Member
What about the GD / Steyr Daimler Puch Pandur II 8x8?

Not the most widely known vehicle of the type but its comparable to others on offer and in service with a number of European armies. It could make an interesting pairing with the ASCOD for the AIFV role. Also the ASCOD is the basis of the UK Scout SV which may make the CT40 turret an option.
Capable vehicle but not in the same payload/size category as Piranha 5 (22-24 vs 30-33 tonnes) or Boxer, AMV. Would suffer from its ability to accept the required protection level.

All three of the known bidders are thinking also about possible migration of the CRV across to the IFV under Phase 3. It is not a done deal yet that the IFV will be tracked.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Capable vehicle but not in the same payload/size category as Piranha 5 (22-24 vs 30-33 tonnes) or Boxer, AMV. Would suffer from its ability to accept the required protection level.

All three of the known bidders are thinking also about possible migration of the CRV across to the IFV under Phase 3. It is not a done deal yet that the IFV will be tracked.
I was looking at it as an alternative to the LAV III / 6 being discussed earlier, but fair point, a heavier, more capable vehicle is the way to go.
 

Goknub

Active Member
The wider advantages and implications of either a Rheinmetall or GD win are interesting in terms of wider Army support and Phase 3.

For support, Rheinmetall has won the Land 121 contract for medium and heavy logistics vehicles. This will give them a sizeable Army presence and give them good scale that would aid in supporting both the Land 400 and Land 121 fleets.

GD on the other hand has teamed with Thales Australia which would nicely consolidate armoured vehicle support. Thales builds the Bushmaster and barring a disaster the Hawkei, GD build the M1A1s so a CRV win would leave only the IFV as outside this team.

Which leads to the Phase 3 IFV question.

Looking at weight, the Army will have:
Hawkei in the 5t range
Bushmaster in the 15t range
CRV in the 25t and 35t range.

It would be good to consolidate on a single fleet to avoid duplicating capabilities. This would suggest a tracked IFV would need to be 45t+ to be a viable option.

BAE - CV-90: At 35t would need significant weight/armour increase (10t)
Rheinmetall - Puma: 42t
GD - ASCOD:42t

There is also that other GD option: Namer 50t, which they are currently manufacturing for Israel.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ASCOD would be interesting due to the option provided by the UK versions but the Namer, while probably the least likely would provide the most transformational capability. The Namer has some great advantages, apart from troop capacity and protection. Its armour is modular and upgradable, its size means it can both have a turret and a full section, also its engine is common with that of the M-88 currently in service with the ADF.

I wonder if GD would be able to do a MOTS Plus version of the Namer offering further commonality with existing platforms. The obvious would be a common turret with the CRV, the engine is already shared with the M-88, maybe road wheels, idlers, spicers and tracks could be those of the Abrams.

I'm not pushing this as the be all and end all , just speculating that there could be some advantages of the option.
 

Stock

Member
I was looking at it as an alternative to the LAV III / 6 being discussed earlier, but fair point, a heavier, more capable vehicle is the way to go.
Workshare for GDLS-Canada (which governs GDLS-Australia) is likely to play a part in it also. Whilst Piranha 5 is a GDELS product, GDLS-C did offer it for Canada's now cancelled Close Combat Vehicle project.

As far as a heavier vehicle being the way to go, there were I understand some Army stakeholders at the recent ASPI future land force conference who expressed surprise at the size and GVM of the CRV candidates. Not sure which game they've been watching the last 10 months but if Army stipulates STANAG Level 6 kinetic and Level 4B blast protection levels, a 8x8 will have to exceed 30 tonnes to meet it. The advanced applique armour necessary to do that is neither cheap nor particularly light.
 

Stock

Member
The wider advantages and implications of either a Rheinmetall or GD win are interesting in terms of wider Army support and Phase 3.

For support, Rheinmetall has won the Land 121 contract for medium and heavy logistics vehicles. This will give them a sizeable Army presence and give them good scale that would aid in supporting both the Land 400 and Land 121 fleets.

GD on the other hand has teamed with Thales Australia which would nicely consolidate armoured vehicle support. Thales builds the Bushmaster and barring a disaster the Hawkei, GD build the M1A1s so a CRV win would leave only the IFV as outside this team.

Which leads to the Phase 3 IFV question.

Looking at weight, the Army will have:
Hawkei in the 5t range
Bushmaster in the 15t range
CRV in the 25t and 35t range.

It would be good to consolidate on a single fleet to avoid duplicating capabilities. This would suggest a tracked IFV would need to be 45t+ to be a viable option.

BAE - CV-90: At 35t would need significant weight/armour increase (10t)
Rheinmetall - Puma: 42t
GD - ASCOD:42t

There is also that other GD option: Namer 50t, which they are currently manufacturing for Israel.

All three confirmed bid teams will have solid through-life support proposals, with GD in particular likely to be very strong in this area.

Expect Rheinmetall's bid to be very strong technically and tightly integrated with the Boxer and Lance turret combination, plus simulation which they also do.

Puma unlikely to be offered for Ph 3 as it only carries 6 dismounts.
 

Goknub

Active Member
All three confirmed bid teams will have solid through-life support proposals, with GD in particular likely to be very strong in this area.

Expect Rheinmetall's bid to be very strong technically and tightly integrated with the Boxer and Lance turret combination, plus simulation which they also do.

Puma unlikely to be offered for Ph 3 as it only carries 6 dismounts.
Agreed, the Puma is the hottest Western IFV at the moment but for an Army looking at a flexible systems approach to it's assets, the limit of 6 dismounts would likely rule it out.
While the Boxer claims 8 it looks like a tighter fit than the Piranha 5 once the Lance turret is added which also could become an issue for Rheinmetall

The desire would ideally be 8 dismounts for both the CRV and IFV as far as I am aware.
GD's ASCOD also claims 8 dismounts but given it's dimensions are similiar to other Western IFVs, once all the extra kit is added it's likely to be only 6 or 7 at most.

Which brings us to the Namer. While it's seen as a pipe-dream at best considering it's size and weight, it actually starts to look more like of a real option.
Given the demanding requirements placed on the CRV it is likely similar requirements will be put on the IFV.

For a vehicle that is expected to operate alongside the M1A1s in the face of the enemy it makes sense the ADF/Govt would want a vehicle with similar survivability to an MBT. The politics of buying an Israeli combat vehicle could get messy but with GD now building some in the US that is less of a problem.

It could be smart for GD to offer the ASCOD as it's MOTS option and Namer as a MOTS Plus. It still seems like an option too far for the ADF but logically it stacks up as the only one that meets the likely criteria:

In service
8 dismounts
MBT-like passive armour
Active defence (Trophy is now combat tested)
Designed for hot conditions

The disadvantages would be the risk of integrating a new turret and the heavier logistical burden.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Raven has stated previously that AIFV troop size will be increase to provide the required lift, i.e. five or six vehicles if necessary.

That said I am personally of the opinion that with our small population and correspondingly small defence force it makes sense to protect our troops as best we can as well as providing them with the greatest combat power we can as well. If that means we have six Pumas per troop, fine, if it means we go for a turreted Namer MOTS plus option, also fine.

What comes to mind is the British army in Normandy, manpower was an issue so they deliberately employed more armour than was tactically sound as tanks were easier to replace than infantry. Crews, even Sherman crews (despite the "Tommy Cooker" myth), usually survived their vehicles being knocked out and were able to return to combat with a new vehicle. I am not suggesting this sort of over kill for a minute, but rather suggesting that more tanks and either more or heavier high end AIFVs would be a sensible investment.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Raven has stated previously that AIFV troop size will be increase to provide the required lift, i.e. five or six vehicles if necessary.
I don't think I quite said that. I said that the number of vehicles per section/troop COULD be increased to fit the required number of grunts into the realistic IFV contenders. It's certainly not a done deal (or even being actively considered as far as I know)

An infantry platoon is 40 strong, and an APC section currently has 6 vehicles. To fit those 40 soldiers into a vehicle that only holds 6 dismounts, you'd only have to increase the section size by one vehicle. A vehicle that holds 7 dismounts could actually fit all 40 soldiers in without increasing section size at all. Of course, buying a vehicle that holds less than 8 soldiers would mean you'd have to cross load infantry fire teams/sections in multiple vehicles, which is far from ideal from a tactical point of view, but may be seen as an acceptable compromise to avoid the best IFV contenders being unable to bid at all.

I'm certainly no expert when it comes to the acquisition process, but I'd imagine it would be possible to release a tender than had as a condition the ability to lift an infantry platoon of 40 soldiers without stipulating exactly how many vehicles would be used to achieve that. Those who could fit that number of soldiers in six vehicles would obviously be advantaged, but at least the contenders that can only fit 6-7 soldiers can still bid.

It's probably worth pointing that comparing what multiple manufacturers advertise in terms of how many soldiers they can fit in their vehicles is fraught with danger. Some vehicles might advertise, say, nine dismounts, but that is only for the soldier themselves with no equipment, no stores and poorly protected seating. Some might advertise only six dismounts, but that is in the best protected seating money can buy with plenty of room for weapons and equipment. After all, a key reason the MRH90 was bought was because of its advertised seating capacity. Of course, when you put fully equipped soldiers in fully protected seating, magically it couldn't carry as many. Who knew?
 

meatshield

Active Member
Niche purchase. The .300 BLK (7.62x35mm) is equivalent to the AK47 round (7.62x39mm) ie. fat & slow; is valued for being very quiet when using suppressed rifles. Other than that, it doesn't offer anything that can't be had in 5.56 nato and 7.62 nato rifles.

btw/ POTD: 12″ Barreled HK417 - The Firearm Blog
Heck that would be loud!! I have a 7615 in 308 with 16" barrel and it sounds like an artillery piece going off!! Would you know how common that rifle is? Or just for some special mission...
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Heck that would be loud!! I have a 7615 in 308 with 16" barrel and it sounds like an artillery piece going off!! Would you know how common that rifle is? Or just for some special mission...
It'd really just be up to the preferences of the operators for how often they are used.

I know a friend of mine who wears a black rectangle over his face for a living mentioned that his team stopped using the 12" barrels because there was so much unburnt powder after firing them, all their equipment was covered in it.
 

Stock

Member
Agreed, the Puma is the hottest Western IFV at the moment but for an Army looking at a flexible systems approach to it's assets, the limit of 6 dismounts would likely rule it out.
While the Boxer claims 8 it looks like a tighter fit than the Piranha 5 once the Blazer turret is added which also could become an issue for Rheinmetall

The desire would ideally be 8 dismounts for both the CRV and IFV as far as I am aware.
GD's ASCOD also claims 8 dismounts but given it's dimensions are similiar to other Western IFVs, once all the extra kit is added it's likely to be only 6 or 7 at most.

Which brings us to the Namer. While it's seen as a pipe-dream at best considering it's size and weight, it actually starts to look more like of a real option.
Given the demanding requirements placed on the CRV it is likely similar requirements will be put on the IFV.

For a vehicle that is expected to operate alongside the M1A1s in the face of the enemy it makes sense the ADF/Govt would want a vehicle with similar survivability to an MBT. The politics of buying an Israeli combat vehicle could get messy but with GD now building some in the US that is less of a problem.

It could be smart for GD to offer the ASCOD as it's MOTS option and Namer as a MOTS Plus. It still seems like an option too far for the ADF but logically it stacks up as the only one that meets the likely criteria:

In service
8 dismounts
MBT-like passive armour
Active defence (Trophy is now combat tested)
Designed for hot conditions

The disadvantages would be the risk of integrating a new turret and the heavier logistical burden.

Not sure what the Blazer turret is you mention - I'm assuming it's not the old 25mm air defence turret for LAV.

For Piranha 5 and Boxer, fitting an unmanned turret for the IFV would free up 1-2 troop seats. Piranha 5 can accept the Rheinmetall Lance turret and the MCT-30 unmanned turret from Kongsberg.

The Lance turret comes in both manned and unmanned versions.

Medium calibre turret integration on Namer and the Israeli factor make it an outside chance for Land 400 Ph 3. Although if Namer is offered by a different prime (US, UK) for instance that may alter perceptions as the contract would consequently not actually be with an Israeli firm.
 

Stock

Member
I don't think I quite said that. I said that the number of vehicles per section/troop COULD be increased to fit the required number of grunts into the realistic IFV contenders. It's certainly not a done deal (or even being actively considered as far as I know)

An infantry platoon is 40 strong, and an APC section currently has 6 vehicles. To fit those 40 soldiers into a vehicle that only holds 6 dismounts, you'd only have to increase the section size by one vehicle. A vehicle that holds 7 dismounts could actually fit all 40 soldiers in without increasing section size at all. Of course, buying a vehicle that holds less than 8 soldiers would mean you'd have to cross load infantry fire teams/sections in multiple vehicles, which is far from ideal from a tactical point of view, but may be seen as an acceptable compromise to avoid the best IFV contenders being unable to bid at all.

I'm certainly no expert when it comes to the acquisition process, but I'd imagine it would be possible to release a tender than had as a condition the ability to lift an infantry platoon of 40 soldiers without stipulating exactly how many vehicles would be used to achieve that. Those who could fit that number of soldiers in six vehicles would obviously be advantaged, but at least the contenders that can only fit 6-7 soldiers can still bid.

It's probably worth pointing that comparing what multiple manufacturers advertise in terms of how many soldiers they can fit in their vehicles is fraught with danger. Some vehicles might advertise, say, nine dismounts, but that is only for the soldier themselves with no equipment, no stores and poorly protected seating. Some might advertise only six dismounts, but that is in the best protected seating money can buy with plenty of room for weapons and equipment. After all, a key reason the MRH90 was bought was because of its advertised seating capacity. Of course, when you put fully equipped soldiers in fully protected seating, magically it couldn't carry as many. Who knew?
Re MRH90, Defence was well aware that the brochure figure for troops carried and the real life numbers were quite different. Analysis indicated clearly that the MRH90 could only carry 1 or 2 more troops than BHawk at the same weight.

This data was submitted by Eurocopter at tender time. Defence knew full well.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Re MRH90, Defence was well aware that the brochure figure for troops carried and the real life numbers were quite different. Analysis indicated clearly that the MRH90 could only carry 1 or 2 more troops than BHawk at the same weight.

This data was submitted by Eurocopter at tender time. Defence knew full well.
Fair enough. The point being though that just because the publicly available information says it can fit X number of soldiers doesn't mean it is the 'truth'.
 
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