John Newman
The Bunker Group
Regardless of if the Special Forces hate the MRH-90 or not, this article may be of interest (was originally posted in the RNZAF thread a week ago):
Paris Air Show 2015: French special forces look to modify NH90 - IHS Jane's 360
It appears that the French are going to modify their NH-90's for Special Forces work.
No doubt our Army will probably be watching the French to see how that all works out, if successful, then at least there is a path to follow in using MRH-90's for our Special Forces too.
Paris Air Show 2015: French special forces look to modify NH90 - IHS Jane's 360
It appears that the French are going to modify their NH-90's for Special Forces work.
No doubt our Army will probably be watching the French to see how that all works out, if successful, then at least there is a path to follow in using MRH-90's for our Special Forces too.
kiwi in exile
Active Member
Do you know what their specific complaints are?
Agreed. That is a huge lift and having a few more CH47 would allow the ADF to maximise the LHDs potential.
They don't like the fast rope system, the soft floors, how the aircrewman (loadmaster) does not have his own window out of which he can lay down suppressive fire when the troops are fast roping out of the side doors. At the moment the door gunner takes up the entire door opening, so you can have one or the other but not both together. The rear ramp is also not as useful as anticipated (very low height - 1.52m). There are also issues with tie down points in the floor for OCL.
The aircraft is a great flyer by all accounts, as you would expect of a late generation design/technology, but not looked forward to by SF here.
This info is first hand from within the unit.
I have long said that an easy solution would be to buy a batch of MH-60S Knighthawks or "Sierras" through FMS. They have a very high level of commonality with the RANs Romeos, were designed from the outset for special forces support and CSAR (another big hole in the ADF), are fully marinised and would be comparatively simple for crews and maintainers to convert to. Either buy sufficient to replace the remaining Blackhawks, or additional aircraft to provide a separate CSAR capability and maybe to serve in a utility role with the Fleet in addition to the MRH90s.
It is clear we don't have enough helicopters at the moment and that the MRH90 has been a disappointment in some ways, maybe the Sierra could be a good way forward replacing the MRH90 in missions it is not so suited to as well as filling gaps such as CSAR and Spec Ops support. They would also provide an interesting additional capability as they can be armed, not just with door guns but Hellfire, APKWS, as well as unguided rockets.
Agree. Would not be a cheap buy though, but could certainly be streamlined via FMS. They would also come marinised. Another bonus.
Perhaps a buy of 10, maybe 12 aircraft tops. I wonder what the minimum number of airframes is that 171 Sqn could live with?
Crossover with the RAN thread.....any chance of reusing the RAN sh60b for SF purposes, or alteratively, using them for RAN utility, and transferring the 6 RAN MRH90s to the army? How much, if any, life is left in the old RAN birds? What are the plans for the sh60s when all the Romeos arrive?
R99
R99
I think the SH-60Bs are pretty shagged. One of the side effects of the Super Sea Sprite cancellation was the Seahawks were worked harder and their modernisation, which would likely have included airframe refurbishment, was cancelled. It would be good if we could get some more life out of them but I do believe they are too far gone.
What about the Army Blackhawks? I'll be honest I have no idea on the differences between them and the Seahawk's thus not even knowing if such an option is viable though was mentioned earlier that Sikorsky felt our Army helo's had low hour's on them compared to other's such as the US.
The concept of an old helicopter being shagged is balanced by the fact that the most structurally and functionally important parts are the dynamic components, that can all be replaced. An old helicopter can be refurbished to functionally last many "lifetimes" whilst retaining excellent reliability and function.
The Sea Kings were ble to soldier on but got bad publicity with Nias Island accident that claimed so many lives. (The accident was not due to age).
So even tired helicopters already in service may well be a cheaper and better option for SOF than MRH90 if they find MRH90 doesn't fit the bill, and Blackhawk/Seahawk do.
Not sure how much commonality in supply chain is between SH-60R and older helicopter, but all the tools and maintenace infrastructure to run the Blackhawk/Seahawk is already in place, so economics of having an extra helicopter cohort may not be so bad.
(Hate that modern cliche "cohort").
The Sea Kings were ble to soldier on but got bad publicity with Nias Island accident that claimed so many lives. (The accident was not due to age).
So even tired helicopters already in service may well be a cheaper and better option for SOF than MRH90 if they find MRH90 doesn't fit the bill, and Blackhawk/Seahawk do.
Not sure how much commonality in supply chain is between SH-60R and older helicopter, but all the tools and maintenace infrastructure to run the Blackhawk/Seahawk is already in place, so economics of having an extra helicopter cohort may not be so bad.
(Hate that modern cliche "cohort").
Latest (July) issue of Defence Technology Review is provided below:
Defence Technology Review : DTR JUL 2015, Page 1
Defence Technology Review : DTR JUL 2015, Page 1
Refurbishment works when there is an off the shelf upgrade and life extension available, they tend to fall over or blowout when you go it alone, especially on a small fleet. Examples of good, CH-47 (D&F), UH-1Y, AH-1Z, and maybe the RAFs Pumas; bad includes the RANs Super Sea Sprites and the Seaking. Why Seaking? Well while it was a capable it was most definitely an old platform that was becoming increasingly difficult and expensive to maintain which is why all its major operators chose to replace rather than upgrade it and why there were no MOTS solutions for Australia to buy.
Best as I can work out the Army Blackhawk's have the same frames as the modern stuff, So if the hour's are low then we actually have a fleet of chopper's that will be sitting and waiting for us to do with what we want. Personally I'd update them to MH-60S variant and shift them over to the Navy and put all of the NH-90's in the Army though may be a use in upgrading a few to MH-60L DAP's and MH-60M's.
meatshield
Active Member
Just read an article about the Dutch special forces getting a new rifle that fires the blackout round. Does anyone know if there is any Australian interest in this new round?
http://www.janes.com/article/52727/dutch-special-forces-to-buy-carbines-chambered-in-300-blk
http://www.janes.com/article/52727/dutch-special-forces-to-buy-carbines-chambered-in-300-blk
MARKMILES77
Active Member
I see in this edition the Dutch have ordered more Bushmasters.
Why have the uparmoured Australian Bushmasters got a completely different add on armour package to the Dutch?
The Dutch add on armour is mounted about 150mm away from the vehicle hull, leaving an air gap, while the Australian add on armour is applied directly to the existing hull armour. Both armies face the same threats, so why the difference?
Not trying to be argumentative, but your point seems to relate to obsolescence of the aircraft leading to an upgrade requirement, whereas if they are just shagged, a refurbishment rather than upgrade would be all that was needed if the airframe offered operational advantage over the newer MRH90 for SOF.
A refurbishment of an old helicopter is eminently feasable, and with so many of that generation still in service all over the world, maybe Army would be happy to use refurbished Blackhawk/Seahawk for SOF requirements.
Basically my point is it is entirely feasable to get a good outcome from refurbishing an old helicopter, but much more difficult to run on a tired fixed wing aircraft fleet.
Last edited:
Australian Bushmasters don't have any 'add-on' armour. All the extra protection that has gone on the vehicles in the Middle East has been on the inside (spall liners and such). All the Australian protection upgrades have been aimed at the IED threat. The Dutch wanted extra ballistic protection, hence the appliqué armour. Australia didn't want to compromise the mobility of the platform by adding that much extra weight. Considering no Australian Bushmaster has ever been penetrated by small arms/RPGs etc, it makes sense.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Canada has been refurbishing Seakings for 50 years due to the much delayed Maritime Helicopter Replacement Program. It can be done but the costs after 30 years are unacceptable and after 45 years...beyond stupid.
MARKMILES77
Active Member
Think you are wrong there Raven.
Multiple reports, photos and videos exist of up armoured Australian Bushmasters both in Australia and Afghanistan (with external add on Armour).
DMO a while ago, reported that the Bushmaster Programme was in the process of adding attachment points for external add on armour to already built Bushmasters.
If you want to see photos:
Defence website had some recently with a clearly up armoured Bushmaster in Australia.
If you have access to Australian Defender, Issue 87 has multiple photos on pages 30, 31 and 35 (up armoured Bushmasters, including close up of extra armour) and 32 (Bushmaster with attachment points but up armour kit removed) in the article "Australian Advisory and Training Teams Afghanistan"
Issue 90 (current issue) page 13 in article on "Operation Highroad".
Or go to youtube and search "Bushmaster CH9 800th Celebrations". At 22 seconds an Australian command version with base armour, 35 seconds you'll see a Dutch Bushmaster with standoff armour kit and at 40 seconds an Australian ambulance Bushmaster with the Australian kit.
I had a quick look, and it seems like you are right. The up armoured ones must be a new addition due to the relatively static, road bound nature of the tasks now. I've certainly never seen them. I guess that happens when you're out of a brigade for a while.