Royal New Zealand Air Force

[FormerDirtDart]

The USAF tried to offload A-10's onto the Army who rejected the proposal on cost. They're managing their own budget right now and the CAS role won't help with that. The Army Secretary even said that CAS was an AF rather than Army role.

Army Not Interested in Taking A-10 Warthogs from Air Force | DoD Buzz

Ummm...I actually read that article. And, nowhere does it state, or even suggest that the USAF offered to transfer the A-10 fleet to Army control.

Where did you come up with that myth?

 

[ngatimozart]

I'd be interested to know if the Boeings are fitted for handling the 463, or just the civilian ULD. I've only flown in them in passenger config - never seen the combo/cargo config.

I would think that they would have been since it's the standard pallet that the RNZAF use. Be silly not to. Having said that ...........

 

[Zero Alpha]

I would think that they would have been since it's the standard pallet that the RNZAF use. Be silly not to. Having said that ...........

Yeah it would be, but unless they sprung for a higher-end handling system the civilian and military systems aren't comparable.

Interesting feature of the A400 though is it can handle civilian ULDs and 463Ls. The UK version can't though, they didn't want to pay for the option. So no easy cross-loading between Voyagers and A400s....

 

[RegR]

I've found a published source on some of the logistics issues in Bougainville. It is consistent with what I've been told from people who were there. I don't want to bog down on this, but as an illustration of a context where an aircraft like the -295 or the -27J could have contributed the lions share of support after the initial lodgement.

By January 1998, the consequences of rushed logistic planning and capping numbers without analysing services to be provided were now being felt. Resupply arrangements had also begun to fail.There was no coordination of air movements by the NZDF and the ADF into and out of Bougainville.​

...

By mid-February 1998, the ADF resupply system into Bougainville was becoming more unreliable and the NZDF system had virtually stopped. Roger’s staff had submitted just over 850 demands for resupply during the previous 10-week period. An average of 56 per cent of demands arrived on time, 28 per cent arrived over two weeks late and a further five per cent arrived over four weeks late. Just over 10 per cent of demands failed to arrive at all. During the same period, his staff submitted 770 demands to the NZDF logistic system under combined logistic support arrangements agreed by the ADF and NZDF. An average of 16 per cent was satisfied on time, with a further 14 per cent arriving over two weeks late. By the end of the period, 68 per cent of demands had not been met at all. After 31 January 1998, the NZ resupply system shut down, leaving 90 per cent of outstanding demands unsatisfied.​

...

Mataparae and senior officers in New Zealand were at loggerheads over safety issues related to the numbers of helicopters and air hours; the serviceability of vehicles and communications equipment; supply issues, such as spare parts; the replacement of Special Forces personnel; and lack of canteen services. After not receiving reinforcement and satisfactory resupply in the first week of March, the RNZAF advised that the next resupply flight would not arrive before 18 March 1998.
​

...

In Wilkinson’s opinion, the achievement of TMG objectives and the safety of monitoring team personnel were now being threatened by New Zealand pride and Australian stubbornness.​

Source​

Always going to be issues setting up the supply chain initially on any deployment as you are somewhat going into the unknown and bedding in, nothing new, especially with differing countries. Also another problem in the beginning was the state of Aropa airfield due to everything being destroyed and the BRA digging a trench through the middle of the runway to prevent its use.

In the beginning it all had to come by ship, ie NZs landrovers were transported on Endeavours helo deck, until the airfield could be repaired and re-instated by engineers.

Another interesting fact, RNZAF (and then Aus army) hueys were painted bright red/orange to stand out as PNGDF also operated hueys during the conflict so obviously inspired alittle hatred and the Bougainvilleans were good at sling shotting Dcell batteries at the PNG ones from ground mounted stakes. Would have been nervous times on those first few flights until word spread whose they were I suppose.

 

[Zero Alpha]

Always going to be issues setting up the supply chain initially on any deployment as you are somewhat going into the unknown and bedding in, nothing new, especially with differing countries. Also another problem in the beginning was the state of Aropa airfield due to everything being destroyed and the BRA digging a trench through the middle of the runway to prevent its use.

In the beginning it all had to come by ship, ie NZs landrovers were transported on Endeavours helo deck, until the airfield could be repaired and re-instated by engineers.

3 months is really past the time where those issues should have been sorted. Reliability issues plagued Army. It's not unreasonable to think RNZAF probably had similar issues (remember this was pre-Herc refurbishment).

Initial repairs to the airfield were done with shovels and pers from Navy. They found out later that some of material used to fill in the trenches contained asbestos.

 

[RobWilliams]

Interesting feature of the A400 though is it can handle civilian ULDs and 463Ls. The UK version can't though, they didn't want to pay for the option. So no easy cross-loading between Voyagers and A400s....

We don't have the cargo capability on Voyager, effectively ours are only good for tanking and personnel transport. See KC-30A for a full fat A330 MRTT.

 

[Nick underscore]

Imterestingly, it was a RNZAF P-3K2 that conducted the initial damage assessments over the nation of Tuvalu and then re-tasked, to do the same over Vanuatu (more so Port Vila).

Could the proposed C-295 MPA do the same, with respect to the discussion on range?

 

[swerve]

We don't have the cargo capability on Voyager, effectively ours are only good for tanking and personnel transport. See KC-30A for a full fat A330 MRTT.

The passenger compartment isn't convertible to cargo, but the under floor cargo hold is unaffected by the tanker conversion. That can hold more 463L pallets than a Hercules (or a lot more volume in LD3 containers) at the same time as a load of passengers, while giving away fuel to accompanying fighters.

 

[RobWilliams]

The passenger compartment isn't convertible to cargo, but the under floor cargo hold is unaffected by the tanker conversion. That can hold more 463L pallets than a Hercules (or a lot more volume in LD3 containers) at the same time as a load of passengers, while giving away fuel to accompanying fighters.

Ah cool, so the tankers aren't quite as hobbled as I thought they were

 

[swerve]

No - though the cargo floor main compartment plus a high-capacity line (boom in their case) on every aircraft that the RAAF has gone for has obvious advantages in every way except financial.

The RAF has been limited by the plan to lease 'em out when not required for AAR, & a standard passenger + underfloor cargo configuration is better for that. Not even fitting fast central HDUs on a lot of the fleet is money-saving, AFAIK.

 

[Zero Alpha]

Not sure about the range - I rather suspect it depends on how low the legs needed to fly around the cyclone were.

Imagery-wise there isn't much special about the P-3K2 doing the job. The MX20 turret can be fitted to almost anything. Streaming the video to a ground terminal is a bit trickier, but there aren't any real show stoppers there.

 

[40 deg south]

Imterestingly, it was a RNZAF P-3K2 that conducted the initial damage assessments over the nation of Tuvalu and then re-tasked, to do the same over Vanuatu (more so Port Vila).

Could the proposed C-295 MPA do the same, with respect to the discussion on range?

As far as I can make out from the media reports, the NZ P-3 was pre-positioned in Tonga. After photographing the damage, my island mates advise that it went to Samoa and handed over the photos to the local MFAT post for transmission to Wellington. The crew rested up at Aggie Greys for the night, and then headed on to Vanuatu.

That gives it about (from Google)1700km Tonga to Tuvalu, ?? hours of photo work, then 1200km back to Samoa. Airbus claim that the C295 has a range of 3700 km with a 6 tonne payload, and 4600km with a 3 tonne payload. I'd guess the sensors and crew of the MPA version would come in towards the bottom end of that weight range.

So yes, it looks to me as if this was do-able with a C295. It would have been more challenging if they started the mission in Auckland, of course. Whoever decided to move the aircraft to Tonga pre-cyclone deserves a long cold beer, as it meant there was good info on the state of Tuvalu at about the same time Vanuatu was being hammered.

 

[40 deg south]

Not sure about the range - I rather suspect it depends on how low the legs needed to fly around the cyclone were.

Imagery-wise there isn't much special about the P-3K2 doing the job. The MX20 turret can be fitted to almost anything. Streaming the video to a ground terminal is a bit trickier, but there aren't any real show stoppers there.

I was a bit surprised to learn that the images weren't transmitted directly from the aircraft, but my sources are adamant that they were sent to Wellington from Samoa by MFAT. It may be that the resolution needed for good damage assessment would be hard to achieve by any other means.

Incidentally, local media report Samoa's Aussie-provided Pacific Patrol Boat has headed to Tuvalu heavily loaded with relief supplies. Nice to see the islands pitching in to help their neighbours.

 

[Zero Alpha]

I was a bit surprised to learn that the images weren't transmitted directly from the aircraft, but my sources are adamant that they were sent to Wellington from Samoa by MFAT. It may be that the resolution needed for good damage assessment would be hard to achieve by any other means.

BGAN does about .5MB/sec. A few images is very possible. A couple of hours of 1080P video is going to take a while. Not sure what bandwidth the satcom systems is, but it isn't going to beat the fibre-optic cable from Samoa. Maybe it was just prudent to not tie up satellite bandwidth and have to worry about which imagery to leave out.

 

[ngatimozart]

I have spied, on,well known NZ aviation site, a post that a team lead by a NZ Army Brigadier is at present visiting the RAF, to assess how they operate their C17s and A400s. This is an unconfirmed report. I would presume if the report is correct, then it may be the Air Mobility Study Group. Judging by a comment made about the post, bemoaning the fact that the army are involved, I think that we should remind ourselves, that today is different to what it was 10, 20, or more years ago and that now Air Mobility acquisitions is all about being what the customer, in this case the NZDF, needs and / or wants, not what single service fans may desire. To get the aircraft that we need we have to have all three services singing from the same song sheet.

Regarding RAF A400Ms, this is an article by Flight Global of how the A400M is settling in to RAF service with its first "operational" mission. According to the article, so far the RAF seem to be pleased with the aircraft. Whilst I think that our budget isn't enough at the moment, I do believe that a combination of C17, A400M and C27J would be the most cost effective and militarily effective air mobility option for NZDF in the long term, because that would future proof us for many many years.

 

[Zero Alpha]

Judging by a comment made about the post, bemoaning the fact that the army are involved, I think that we should remind ourselves, that today is different to what it was 10, 20, or more years ago and that now Air Mobility acquisitions is all about being what the customer, in this case the NZDF, needs and / or wants, not what single service fans may desire. To get the aircraft that we need we have to have all three services singing from the same song sheet.

Combined with Army and Air Force being involved in the new logistics ship, I'd almost say there has been an outbreak of common sense!

Meanwhile, both a Herc and a Boeing had to abort sorties due to faults today. Not a good look.

 

[Cadredave]

I have spied, on,well known NZ aviation site, a post that a team lead by a NZ Army Brigadier is at present visiting the RAF, to assess how they operate their C17s and A400s. This is an unconfirmed report. I would presume if the report is correct, then it may be the Air Mobility Study Group. Judging by a comment made about the post, bemoaning the fact that the army are involved, I think that we should remind ourselves, that today is different to what it was 10, 20, or more years ago and that now Air Mobility acquisitions is all about being what the customer, in this case the NZDF, needs and / or wants, not what single service fans may desire. To get the aircraft that we need we have to have all three services singing from the same song sheet.

Regarding RAF A400Ms, this is an article by Flight Global of how the A400M is settling in to RAF service with its first "operational" mission. According to the article, so far the RAF seem to be pleased with the aircraft. Whilst I think that our budget isn't enough at the moment, I do believe that a combination of C17, A400M and C27J would be the most cost effective and militarily effective air mobility option for NZDF in the long term, because that would future proof us for many many years.

That Brigadier will be from Defence Logistic Command there was a post in the latest APDR I read where the Brigadier of HQ1Bde stated that in the future that Logistics Command (Land) will move under Defence Logistics Command and become purple along with the other two services trial units to confirm the feasibility is the NZDF Military police.

 

[Zero Alpha]

That Brigadier will be from Defence Logistic Command there was a post in the latest ADM I read where the Brigadier of HQ1Bde stated that in the future that Logistics Command (Land) will move under Defence Logistics Command and become purple along with the other two services trial units to confirm the feasibility is the NZDF Military police.

I've heard something similar from a couple of aircraft fuelers. Sounds like off-base bulk fuel is going to go purple too. Also a bit of talk about shifting to dismountable pods rather than the dedicated (Iveco?) tankers.

 

[t68]

I have spied, on,well known NZ aviation site, a post that a team lead by a NZ Army Brigadier is at present visiting the RAF, to assess how they operate their C17s and A400s. This is an unconfirmed report. I would presume if the report is correct, then it may be the Air Mobility Study Group. Judging by a comment made about the post, bemoaning the fact that the army are involved, I think that we should remind ourselves, that today is different to what it was 10, 20, or more years ago and that now Air Mobility acquisitions is all about being what the customer, in this case the NZDF, needs and / or wants, not what single service fans may desire. To get the aircraft that we need we have to have all three services singing from the same song sheet.

Regarding RAF A400Ms, this is an article by Flight Global of how the A400M is settling in to RAF service with its first "operational" mission. According to the article, so far the RAF seem to be pleased with the aircraft. Whilst I think that our budget isn't enough at the moment, I do believe that a combination of C17, A400M and C27J would be the most cost effective and militarily effective air mobility option for NZDF in the long term, because that would future proof us for many many years.

Whilst I believe A400 would suit the RNZAF once all the bugs are ironed out, but in my veiw if C27J was purchased C130J would be the way to go for logistics reasons, why make the tail harder than it has to be, if C17 is not chosen than an all A400 fleet should be chosen to get the max stratigic lift as possible

 

[Cadredave]

I've heard something similar from a couple of aircraft fuelers. Sounds like off-base bulk fuel is going to go purple too. Also a bit of talk about shifting to dismountable pods rather than the dedicated (Iveco?) tankers.

Yeah when you see a senior sir state it then you know its coming, big changes for all Loggies in the three services to be honest it does make sense with the JATF on the way Army was fully stretched to support all three major deployments not so long ago.