Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Cheers NM. Media reports suggest the OPV boarding parties cannot board because the vessels are manoeuvring "aggressively" and sailing into fog. I wonder if a Seasprite is on board, but even if so, would it simply provide top cover, rather than be used to drop naval personnel onto the vessels to affect an arrest?

(Does RNZN personnel undertake helicopter type "assaults" or is that the domain of the Army, who presumably aren't on board the OPV's? If so, perhaps the NZG think that one through, future funding/output wise, when sending these OPV's out on patrol)!
RNZN do not train for fast roping RNZAF have deemed it for Tier 1 & some Tier 2 forces only so at this time only NZSAS, 1 Commando & HR Rifle Companies are fully trained. This trip down south was MFAT led & directed as the captain explained the ROE were very tight safety of his crew was number one in his book.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
If you were going to deploy RNZAF on naval vessels for fast roping then you may as well deploy army pers who do it with air alot more regularly (militarily) alongside them. Naval seasprites IMO are not ideal for this task anyway with their small cabin and single constricted door which would/should most likely have a gun in it if the op requires fast roping to overcome at sea anyway.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If you were going to deploy RNZAF on naval vessels for fast roping then you may as well deploy army pers who do it with air alot more regularly (militarily) alongside them. Naval seasprites IMO are not ideal for this task anyway with their small cabin and single constricted door which would/should most likely have a gun in it if the op requires fast roping to overcome at sea anyway.
I don't see where you got deploying RNZAF on naval vessels so they can fast rope from Reg, RNZAF in JFHQ have decreed that only tier 1 & some tier 2 can be trained & deployed in this manner i.e. a job only for the specials & HR Coy.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Are the Super Sea Sprites RNZAF or RNZN owned and/or operated?

Fast roping is a very useful capability for boarding operations and can be safely and proficiently conducted by suitably trained personnel who need not be special forces trained or qualified. Boarding parties in the RAN usually include a marine technician to secure and ensure the safety of the boarded vessels propulsion plant and critical systems. The requirement for such a qualified sailor in the boarding party combined with the need for all those trailed in fast roping be Tier 1 or 2 pretty much precludes NZ from conducting this quite common and extremely effective evolution.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Are the Super Sea Sprites RNZAF or RNZN owned and/or operated?

Fast roping is a very useful capability for boarding operations and can be safely and proficiently conducted by suitably trained personnel who need not be special forces trained or qualified. Boarding parties in the RAN usually include a marine technician to secure and ensure the safety of the boarded vessels propulsion plant and critical systems. The requirement for such a qualified sailor in the boarding party combined with the need for all those trailed in fast roping be Tier 1 or 2 pretty much precludes NZ from conducting this quite common and extremely effective evolution.
They are operated, flown and crewed by the RNZN with a RNZAF Sqn number and the RNZAF provide infrastructure and the technical support. All flight training and support is also provided by the RNZAF.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Are the Super Sea Sprites RNZAF or RNZN owned and/or operated?

Fast roping is a very useful capability for boarding operations and can be safely and proficiently conducted by suitably trained personnel who need not be special forces trained or qualified. Boarding parties in the RAN usually include a marine technician to secure and ensure the safety of the boarded vessels propulsion plant and critical systems. The requirement for such a qualified sailor in the boarding party combined with the need for all those trailed in fast roping be Tier 1 or 2 pretty much precludes NZ from conducting this quite common and extremely effective evolution.
On this topic, a few years ago the infantry battalions in 3 Bde were trying to get some fast rope training done for their recon platoons/sniper cells, and approached SOCOMD for a bit of SME help. SOCOMD of course told them it was a very dangerous and deadly skill, and normal non-SF soldiers couldn't possibly be expected to master such a ninja skillset without unacceptable risk. The battalions just pointed out that every man and his dog in the Navy does fast roping, and if fat pussers can do it, they were sure recon soldiers would be fine.

The battalions got their SME advice and fast rope training.

The only damage caused was a car accident on the Bruce Highway, as a drop kick driving past Lavarack Barracks got distracted by the hovering Blackhawks and decided to crash his car.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
On this topic, a few years ago the infantry battalions in 3 Bde were trying to get some fast rope training done for their recon platoons/sniper cells, and approached SOCOMD for a bit of SME help. SOCOMD of course told them it was a very dangerous and deadly skill, and normal non-SF soldiers couldn't possibly be expected to master such a ninja skillset without unacceptable risk. The battalions just pointed out that every man and his dog in the Navy does fast roping, and if fat pussers can do it, they were sure recon soldiers would be fine.

The battalions got their SME advice and fast rope training.

The only damage caused was a car accident on the Bruce Highway, as a drop kick driving past Lavarack Barracks got distracted by the hovering Blackhawks and decided to crash his car.
:rolling
 

chis73

Active Member
LOSC (LWSW) update

Some movement at last on the Littoral Operations Support Capability project (LOSC) - formerly the Littoral Warfare Support Vessel (LWSV). I guess somebody thought better of calling it the Littoral Operations Support Ship (LOSS).

NZDF are currently advertising for a Naval Architect and a Requirements Manager for this project. What that means is anyone's guess - perhaps no one bothered to reply to 2013's RFI (which wouldn't be surprising considering it tried to fit everything but the kitchen sink into the vessel - hydrography, dive operations, ROVs, UAVs, special forces)? If the plan is to design from scratch then time is very tight to get a vessel into service by 2019. Project Projector was a similar rush job, look how poorly that turned out.

What is surprising is that they are both fixed term appointments, and only for the LOSV project. One would have thought that with the upcoming work (Endeavour replacement, frigate upgrades & eventual replacement), and considering our history of rushed duff projects (Charles Upham, Canterbury, OPVs) permanent positions might have been wise (maybe if not full time). Type 26 looks like it is going to be beyond our means; Aussie AWD derivatives also; the US is still buggering about with LCS "frigates"; and no-one would put money on Canada. We might be left carrying a significant portion of the design work ourselves. There are quite a few whole-of-government projects these people could work on (eg. new rail ferries), and commercial work if there is still time to spare.

Chis73
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Makes you wonder if NZ would have been better off just building (they were major block fabricators) an extra ANZAC or two and gone for a MOTS LST (San Giorgio, Endurance, Osumi, Enforcer) instead of Protector and Charles Upham. You would have had more capability, sooner, with less grief and it may even have not cost much, if any more through the life of the assets (assuming under performing assets need to be replaced earlier, at great expense).
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I don't see where you got deploying RNZAF on naval vessels so they can fast rope from Reg, RNZAF in JFHQ have decreed that only tier 1 & some tier 2 can be trained & deployed in this manner i.e. a job only for the specials & HR Coy.
The reason navy do not fast rope is because it is an extra skillset and is purely financial (even for other army units) ie NZDF are not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts they are risk adverse to a degree however the added cost in hours for initial and continuation training required for naval helos to do this with such a small fleet of un-suitable type (sprite, too small, debus issues) is the role killer.

RNZAF on the other hand have the appropriate type (90 and huey until retirement), expertise and already train with/in fast roping with army, no point training navy unless they regularly used the skill as well otherwise duplicating for no real gain. I guess another problem is RNZAF NH90 is not the naval version therefore whilst capable of 'deploying' from naval vessels is not ideal for 'operating' from naval vessels as are the sprites (folding blades, decklock, marinised etc) rather important if say chasing down a rougue ship in open water.

If 6 sqn had NFH90 or even marinised version 90s then maybe naval command could justify a change in doctrine as not being able to readily insert by air drastically reduces options to board a target ship at sea quickly. In other words 3 sqn are the SMEs for fast roping and have the gear to suit this role and 6 sqn are the maritime professionals but their equipment is lacking in this (fast roping) area and compromise is both costly and somewhat risky.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
RNZN do not train for fast roping RNZAF have deemed it for Tier 1 & some Tier 2 forces only so at this time only NZSAS, 1 Commando & HR Rifle Companies are fully trained. This trip down south was MFAT led & directed as the captain explained the ROE were very tight safety of his crew was number one in his book.
Thanks for the clarification CD. In light of the recent "pirate" vessel incident in the Southern Ocean which couldn't be boarded at sea (and also in light of Volk's and Raven's comments about RAN fast roping capabilities), what would the process be for the NZDF to allow other groups (eg RNZN personnel) to develop fast roping skillsets when operating with RNZAF rotary assets?

Although this might be a moot-point for the OPV's as apparently the Seasprite cannot safely operate from such vessels (helo-pad too small?), so until this is addressed (eg extend flight deck/maranised AW-109 acquisition etc?), I'm more thinking then for ANZAC Frigate/Seasprite operations in places like the Gulf.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Thanks for the clarification CD. In light of the recent "pirate" vessel incident in the Southern Ocean which couldn't be boarded at sea (and also in light of Volk's and Raven's comments about RAN fast roping capabilities), what would the process be for the NZDF to allow other groups (eg RNZN personnel) to develop fast roping skillsets when operating with RNZAF rotary assets?

Although this might be a moot-point for the OPV's as apparently the Seasprite cannot safely operate from such vessels (helo-pad too small?), so until this is addressed (eg extend flight deck/maranised AW-109 acquisition etc?), I'm more thinking then for ANZAC Frigate/Seasprite operations in places like the Gulf.
AFAIK the Seasprite can operate from both the RNZN frigates and OPV's, the major difference being that the OPV's lack any sort of magazine so the Seasprites would be essentially unarmed.

As for fastroping... The Seasprites appear too small and constricted for a boarding party to safely lifted. While the NH90 is plenty large for such mission, they are too large to operate from all RNZN vessels except Canterbury, or perhaps lilypad on the frigates.

I suspect that the 109's are also too small to safely fastrope a large enough boarding party to be safe/effective.

Until the RNZN has assets which would allow effective use of fastroping I think it premature to worry about the skillset.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Type 26 looks like it is going to be beyond our means; Aussie AWD derivatives also; the US is still buggering about with LCS "frigates"; and no-one would put money on Canada. We might be left carrying a significant portion of the design work ourselves.
Chis73
Who says this?
 

chis73

Active Member
Who says this?
This is just my assessment. When I say a significant portion, I don't mean that we would the major designer - we'll be the minor partner. It's just that we may have to have a larger input than we have had previously (as we would be the major customer). The ANZACs were designed by the Germans & the Aussies. NZ pretty much took what was offered. Similarly, we didn't have great input to the British frigates we operated. When we have had a bigger input it hasn't worked out well - Canterbury, OPVs etc.

I think it is quite possible that none of our major partners will have a light frigate (lets say <5000t, thats all I think we will be able to afford, and we will be lucky to get any sort of frigate at all) in production by 2028, so we could be left to sort out the design with the shipbuilder on our own. With regard to Type 26, I'm reacting to concerns raised that it might now be closer to 8000t (from an interview with 1st Sea Lord Zambellas in October - here), along with fresh rumours this week of a major cut coming post the UK election (which may hit Type 26 numbers). Aussies similarly won't build anything cheap enough for us. Germans, Norwegians, Dutch & Danish ships are also pushing 6000t these days. Something modified from the French Lafayette (like the Singaporeans have done) is a possibility, but then you would probably have a major job fitting US/NATO systems & weapons in it. Canadians might have a reasonable design but will insist on building it in Canada. US might come to our rescue if they build an FFG7 replacement in serious numbers. A small production run (2-3) also creates affordability issues.

Chis73
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
TKMS still offers an updated MEKO A200, & I think that as long as they sell, will keep offering a range of warship sizes.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
This is just my assessment. When I say a significant portion, I don't mean that we would the major designer - we'll be the minor partner. It's just that we may have to have a larger input than we have had previously (as we would be the major customer). The ANZACs were designed by the Germans & the Aussies. NZ pretty much took what was offered. Similarly, we didn't have great input to the British frigates we operated. When we have had a bigger input it hasn't worked out well - Canterbury, OPVs etc.

I think it is quite possible that none of our major partners will have a light frigate (lets say <5000t, thats all I think we will be able to afford, and we will be lucky to get any sort of frigate at all) in production by 2028, so we could be left to sort out the design with the shipbuilder on our own. With regard to Type 26, I'm reacting to concerns raised that it might now be closer to 8000t (from an interview with 1st Sea Lord Zambellas in October - here), along with fresh rumours this week of a major cut coming post the UK election (which may hit Type 26 numbers). Aussies similarly won't build anything cheap enough for us. Germans, Norwegians, Dutch & Danish ships are also pushing 6000t these days. Something modified from the French Lafayette (like the Singaporeans have done) is a possibility, but then you would probably have a major job fitting US/NATO systems & weapons in it. Canadians might have a reasonable design but will insist on building it in Canada. US might come to our rescue if they build an FFG7 replacement in serious numbers. A small production run (2-3) also creates affordability issues.

Chis73
Honestly, I doubt the dimensions or displacement would be the issue for the RNZN. OTOH cost could be a factor, and there is a reason why the phrase, "steel is cheap, and air is free," exists in naval construction.

What I suspect would a problem is how much the RNZN, or more realistically Gov't would allow the RNZN to spend, on the frigate fitout. IIRC the cost of weapons, sensors, and combat data systems and the requisite systems integration can equal half the overall cost of the completed vessel, and sometimes more.

While things have gotten better, I am concerned that a future Kiwi warship might only be armed enough to defeat a hostile OPV, because of politics and short-sighted bean-counters and the like.

Another reality is that I just do not see NZ being able to construct a replacement vessel, which means in addition to any design work, there has to be a suitable yard to actually construct and the fitout the frigate(s).

A potential reason why a position for a naval architect was created might be an attempt to prevent some of the Project Protector issues, especially with respect to Canterbury and the OPV's. Given that the original LWSO seemed to want to be a bit of everything (and AFAIK it did include a kitchen sink, since it presumably would have a mess...) but as can happen, trying to include a bit of everything often can lead to being good/suitable for nothing. This did not quite happen with Canterbury, since it can fufill a sealift role, but what makes a vessel suitable for a sealift role (lane metres, displacement/buoyancy set aside for embarked personnel, cargo and vehicles, etc, impacts how a vessel will behave when the personnel, cargo and vehicles are absent. As they would be if Canterbury was operating in the patrol ship role. Given that vessel handling for the Charles Upham when empty was an issue, it is a bit surprising that a similar sort of mistake was made in selecting Canterbury.

OTOH though, the roles of sealift and patrol are quite different, and I would not normally expect a customer to request a vessel able to do both.

-Cheers
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Another option is the Patrol Frigate variant of National Security Cutter by Huntington Ingalls and recycling the armaments from the current Anzacs just an option
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
TKMS still offers an updated MEKO A200, & I think that as long as they sell, will keep offering a range of warship sizes.
Korea also offers a range of naval vessels for every budget, and Japan may well be back in the international arms game by the late 2020s (if not much sooner).

Speaking of Korea, there hasn't been much news on the UK MARS tanker lately. This update implies things are progressing smoothly.

UK Taps A&P Marine to Tailor S. Korea Tankers

LONDON — A marine engineering company in southwest England has been selected to customize four new military tankers being built in South Korea to support the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers and other Royal Navy warships.

A deal awarding the work to A&P Marine's facilities in Falmouth, Cornwall, to fit out the new 37,000-ton Tide-class tankers with UK-specific equipment is due to be announced in the next few weeks, a Defence Ministry source said....

... Norway has purchased a variant of the design for a new logistics and support vessel it is having built in South Korea; Australia and New Zealand are also interested in the design.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Korea also offers a range of naval vessels for every budget, and Japan may well be back in the international arms game by the late 2020s (if not much sooner).

Speaking of Korea, there hasn't been much news on the UK MARS tanker lately. This update implies things are progressing smoothly.

UK Taps A&P Marine to Tailor S. Korea Tankers
The RCN would have been better off with Korean built Tides rather than Berlin class AORs built in Canada. SeaSpan in Vancouver should be building a new icebreaker now as both types of ships are needed ASAP and SeaSpan can't build both at the same time.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Another option is the Patrol Frigate variant of National Security Cutter by Huntington Ingalls and recycling the armaments from the current Anzacs just an option
Not really a viable option. if we were going to spend that amount of money we'd be far better buying Iver Huitfelds.
 
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