War Against ISIS

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Having just been on the net, and seen the atrocities commited by ISIS, I can not understand why the UN is not involved?
These monsters need to be exterminated, completely.
No comprimise, almost to the point where everyone agrees to abondon parts of Iraq, give it to ISIS, and nuke it untill its gone.
 

Goknub

Active Member
I think that like Syria it's more to do with a lack of "good" options.

Maliki forced out the US forces and has managed to drag the country back into sectarian violence, undoing most of the effort put into bringing the Iraqi military up to scratch.

It's only now that the Kurds are under attack that the Americans have someone they consider worth backing.

The removal of Maliki should also improve things now.
 

bdique

Member
Rimasta, Bonza, thank you for your responses, I was in Taipei for a vacation when the first USN strikes took place. Wifi was poor, and I was mostly out thus the lag in response.

Regarding CAP, this was the term I heard CNN use, so I just stuck with it. The thing is that CNN made it sound like the SHornets were seeking targets of opportunity, which seemed off. (This would more likely be done by the MQ-1s, no? They are meant to loiter after all.) More likely these strikes are directed by embedded Special Forces/CIA, but it was the distance travelled by the jets to make the strikes that really hit me, for lack of a better word. Moreover, these seemed like time-sensitive targets to me, so to me it seemed really impressive that such a long range strike was even conducted at all.

Bonza, thanks very much for the info regarding the Super Hornets. I joined this forum with the hope of learning new things, and sure I did learn!
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
3 UK RAF Tornados are to deploy to Cyprus with recce pods to scout out drop zones for following C-130 aid drops to prevent the likelihood of having to abort.

They will be armed for self defence.

After reading what ISIS has been doing to the local population, wipe them out. They are a hugely destablising violent militia group seemingly on a scale far larger than the Taliban ever were.

BBC News - RAF Tornado jets leave UK for Iraq aid mission

Chinooks being considered, basing situation is unclear.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Chinooks-now-considered-for-Iraq-crisis.html
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
They are a hugely destablising violent militia group seemingly on a scale far larger than the Taliban ever were.
Indeed, unlike AQ and ISIS, the Afghan Taliban only wanted to create its form of government within Afghanistan. It had no desire to spread the 'faith' elsewhere.

What's obvious is that ISIS is here to stay and is a problem that needs a long term solution. What remains to be seen is what the next response of the West will be if airstrikes and aid to the Iraqi government fails to stem ISIS. And how the situation in Iraq - in the long term, if not resolved - will affect that in Syria. And there's also the question of the role Saudi Arabia plays in this mess.

Iraq crisis: West

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-and-the-start-of-a-new-dark-age-9659379.html
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Indeed, unlike AQ and ISIS, the Afghan Taliban only wanted to create its form of government within Afghanistan. It had no desire to spread the 'faith' elsewhere.

What's obvious is that ISIS is here to stay and is a problem that needs a long term solution. What remains to be seen is what the next response of the West will be if airstrikes and aid to tke Iraqi government fail to stem ISIS. And how the situation in Iraq - in the long term, if not resolved - will affect that in Syria. And there's also the question of the role Saudi Arabia plays in this.

Iraq crisis: West
Perhaps the Taliban had no intentions to spread their "faith" elsewhere. Why bother when you were hosting those who would (bin Laden et al)? As for Saudi Arabia's role in all this...do you really have to ask? It will be interesting to see what the new prime minister al-Abadi can accomplish. Both Iran and the US seem supportive of this choice.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Perhaps the Taliban had no intentions to spread their "faith" elsewhere.
Off course they didn't. That is what distinguishes the Afghan Talibs from other groups. The aim of the Taliban was establishing an 'Islamic Emirate Of Afghanistan' and hosting AQ didn't make a difference. Their utimate aim remained unchanged.

As for Saudi Arabia's role in all this...do you really have to ask? Why bother when you were hosting those who would (bin Laden et al)?
As the situation drags on a lot will happen: behind the scenes Britain and the U.S. will try to pressure their ally to do more. If Britain and the U.S.can't persuade Saudi to lay off; who can? Off course the Saudis - despite needing Western help for regime survival against internal threats and the ''heretic'' Iranians - will pursue its own policy over Iraq and elsewhere, as they see this as their core interest.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's a scenario which will never be fixed, there will always be skirmishes between Iraqi forces and ISIS a decade from now even if the West in its entirety deploys aircraft. Air strikes are turning them from a semi-conventional force into an unconventional force (since mobile artillery and military vehicles are easier to destroy) and their tactics will evolve to what Western forces have been fighting since 2001.

Then that brings into the discussion the actual quality of the Iraqi army, it's hard to argue that even forces of the quality of the US/UK and the support they had in both Iraq and Afghan that in either case a proper victory was achieved against those types of forces. It's unlikely the Iraqis will be able to do it for years.

Although there's been an interesting turn of events recently with the Kurds actually going on the offensive following US air strikes and Iraqi forces (including a solid core of Iraqi commandos) captured parts of Tikrit with armour support including the tomb of Saddam Hussein (which is apparently a big deal) and they promptly moved his body as well as retaking the water desalination facility for the city

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/iraqs-commandos-fight-back-against-militants-623ebea48ede

If there was a better time to sort out the issue then it's now. Apparently the US isn't keen on backing the Kurds 100% as they have their own separatist groups but if an inclusive government was formed with someone at the head who appeared strong and supportive of a united Iraq in its entirety then that could be different.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
After reading what ISIS has been doing to the local population, wipe them out. They are a hugely destablising violent militia group seemingly on a scale far larger than the Taliban ever were.
Well yes. Absolutely. But you can't in the same breath talk about wiping out ISIS, and keep support for the Syrian rebels who not only are basically on the same side as ISIS, but have been documented doing much worse then ISIS has been. And meanwhile the US keeps supplying weapons and training to the Syrian rebels, under some pretense that they're somehow better then ISIS, and surely won't turn those weapons against Iraq, if they win in Syria.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
"The Syrian rebels" is a meaningless term in this context. Which Syrian rebels? ISIS, the other Salafists, the various secular groups that the government & ISIS have ganged up against . . .
 

Rimasta

Member
Well yes. Absolutely. But you can't in the same breath talk about wiping out ISIS, and keep support for the Syrian rebels who not only are basically on the same side as ISIS, but have been documented doing much worse then ISIS has been. And meanwhile the US keeps supplying weapons and training to the Syrian rebels, under some pretense that they're somehow better then ISIS, and surely won't turn those weapons against Iraq, if they win in Syria.
There are groups in Syria fighting Assad, and fighting ISIS. In fact there is talk amoung certain intelligence circles that Assad and ISIS cooperate on some level, despite the fact they are officially enemies. Reports of payments from Damascus to ISIS and other groups to protect the oil infrastructure, and that Assad can use ISIS to discredit anyone who opposes his regime as a heart eating Jihadists radical. They do not go hand in hand. Just because they are "rebels" doesn't mean they are all fighting for the same cause. One could argue that the very lack of support for moderate factions have given rise to more radical elements. They are typically better armed and organized. In this area of the world, people typically bet on the winning horse, and as bad as they are for your stomach, MRE's were not going to help the now defunct FSA do very much at all.

ISIS is mutilating people, public hangings, public executions, suicide attacks, and burying women and children alive, what are the other groups doing that is so much worse?

A lot of Syrian 'rebels' have been killed by ISIS in Syria, I doubt they'd agree they are on the same side, even Al-Qaeda is distancing themselves. Just seems like an oversimplification of the various factions fighting in West Asia.
 

Rimasta

Member
It was ironic when the US was bombing it's own howitzers, that were donated to Iraq and then fell into rebel hands. From the photos is looks like the rebels also captured some armored 7-tons. I wonder if they can actually make good use of those cannons.

bmpd -
Doubtful. I've trained on the M119 and the M198 howitzers briefly before I went into self propelled artillery on a M109A6, it takes a considerable amount of training and coordination at several levels to get good effect on a target using indirect fire with a M198. The M198 is the type of howitzers we supplied the Iraqi's with. Unless they have people who are familiar with these systems, I don't see them using it beyond a point and shoot role or a direct fire role.

Not that it matters, seems like heavy weapons and armored vehicles will be pounced on once they advertise their positions to US aircraft.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Well yes. Absolutely. But you can't in the same breath talk about wiping out ISIS, and keep support for the Syrian rebels who not only are basically on the same side as ISIS, but have been documented doing much worse then ISIS has been. And meanwhile the US keeps supplying weapons and training to the Syrian rebels, under some pretense that they're somehow better then ISIS, and surely won't turn those weapons against Iraq, if they win in Syria.
Assad's a piece of work for sure but looking at what may replace him must be alarming to the moderate rebels that first started this process. The Syrian general population has probably come to this conclusion long ago. I wonder if the average Iraqi citizen (Sunni or Shia) feels they were better off under Saddam or the mess that followed his removal? Time will tell (and a lot of it).
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
"The Syrian rebels" is a meaningless term in this context. Which Syrian rebels? ISIS, the other Salafists, the various secular groups that the government & ISIS have ganged up against . . .
That's a very good point. I'm not well versed on the extent or nature of US support. Perhaps you could elucidate what exactly is being done, and for whom? I'm sure public info is limited, but even your best guess would be appreciated.

ISIS is mutilating people, public hangings, public executions, suicide attacks, and burying women and children alive, what are the other groups doing that is so much worse?
Hmm. I haven't been following the Syrian mess too closely as of late, but when I was the islamists had, in at least two cases, executed the entire population of a small town or village for refusing to cooperate with the rebels. Has ISIS been involved in systematic mass murder as well? That would bode all kinds of bad things for the future of Iraq.

A lot of Syrian 'rebels' have been killed by ISIS in Syria, I doubt they'd agree they are on the same side, even Al-Qaeda is distancing themselves. Just seems like an oversimplification of the various factions fighting in West Asia.
Well once again, who is physically getting the benefits provided by US training and supplies? Unless there is a very clear answer to this question, the policy is at the very least irresponsible.

Doubtful. I've trained on the M119 and the M198 howitzers briefly before I went into self propelled artillery on a M109A6, it takes a considerable amount of training and coordination at several levels to get good effect on a target using indirect fire with a M198. The M198 is the type of howitzers we supplied the Iraqi's with. Unless they have people who are familiar with these systems, I don't see them using it beyond a point and shoot role or a direct fire role.
Yes I figured the answer was something of that sort. Even crew-served infantry weapons require a level of training and coordination that makes their effective use by insurgent forces uncommon. I guess it would depend on whether they could get some Iraqi army artillery officers to help. Either way, I'm glad they're being taken out of the equation. I was just mildly amused by the pattern.

There are groups in Syria fighting Assad, and fighting ISIS. In fact there is talk amoung certain intelligence circles that Assad and ISIS cooperate on some level, despite the fact they are officially enemies. Reports of payments from Damascus to ISIS and other groups to protect the oil infrastructure, and that Assad can use ISIS to discredit anyone who opposes his regime as a heart eating Jihadists radical. They do not go hand in hand.
Do you have any further reading on this subject? I certainly wouldn't put it past Assad to do this, but given that he's pushing hard to re-stablish solid (authoritarian) control over his country, I doubt ISIS is someone he would want to share power with. Does it look more like a cooperation of convenience, or the makings of something more long-term?

Just because they are "rebels" doesn't mean they are all fighting for the same cause. One could argue that the very lack of support for moderate factions have given rise to more radical elements. They are typically better armed and organized. In this area of the world, people typically bet on the winning horse, and as bad as they are for your stomach, MRE's were not going to help the now defunct FSA do very much at all.
Maybe. But providing support for anyone in this mess only makes sense if you're prepared to go the full length and make sure they come out on top, otherwise you're just tossing logs in the fire. You said it yourself, radical groups are taking out the more moderate rebels. In the process of doing so they take their equipment and supplies, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few defectors pass between the factions as well, potentially taking with them know-how on said equipment.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well yes. Absolutely. But you can't in the same breath talk about wiping out ISIS, and keep support for the Syrian rebels who not only are basically on the same side as ISIS, but have been documented doing much worse then ISIS has been. And meanwhile the US keeps supplying weapons and training to the Syrian rebels, under some pretense that they're somehow better then ISIS, and surely won't turn those weapons against Iraq, if they win in Syria.
But I didn't say it in the same breath, I didn't mention supporting Syrian rebels (or Syria at all AFAIK) or advocate what *should* be done about supporting any particular faction.

As has been said before, it's not just 'dictator v rebel', rebels in Syria are turning against each other more and more every day. I say support the moderate groups, the ones who aren't hell bent on eradicating anybody different from them by burying women and children alive.

But that's Syria talk for the Syrian thread.
 

Rimasta

Member
Hmm. I haven't been following the Syrian mess too closely as of late, but when I was the islamists had, in at least two cases, executed the entire population of a small town or village for refusing to cooperate with the rebels. Has ISIS been involved in systematic mass murder as well? That would bode all kinds of bad things for the future of Iraq.

Well once again, who is physically getting the benefits provided by US training and supplies? Unless there is a very clear answer to this question, the policy is at the very least irresponsible.

Do you have any further reading on this subject? I certainly wouldn't put it past Assad to do this, but given that he's pushing hard to re-stablish solid (authoritarian) control over his country, I doubt ISIS is someone he would want to share power with. Does it look more like a cooperation of convenience, or the makings of something more long-term?

Maybe. But providing support for anyone in this mess only makes sense if you're prepared to go the full length and make sure they come out on top, otherwise you're just tossing logs in the fire. You said it yourself, radical groups are taking out the more moderate rebels. In the process of doing so they take their equipment and supplies, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few defectors pass between the factions as well, potentially taking with them know-how on said equipment.
Replying from my iPhone. It does appear ISIS has been involved in massacres in Iraq and Syria. There are reports of hundreds of men being executed in front of their families and women being abducted. There are also reports of ISIS taking captured civilians and using them as human shields in the city of Tel Afar.

1,500 Iraqi Civilians Were Slaughtered Yesterday by ISIS, and the Obama Administration Issued a Statement | National Review Online

There was one article in particular I'm trying to find. I might have gotten it through an email from the defense news early bird newsletter. What I found interesting is it named French intelligence as making those conclusions about ISIS/Al-Qaeda/Assad cooperation. And I wouldn't be surprised if the French were able to produce better human intel from Syria than the US.

Syria's Assad accused of boosting al-Qaeda with secret oil deals - Telegraph

It does smell of a conspiracy theory, but there are merits. Strategically it seems to make sense for both sides. It allows breathing room for the regime to concentrate on other groups while preserving oil infrastructure, and Jihadists can sell oil through Syria, financing their operations further. ISIS is extremely well funded and clearly from multiple sources, donors, kidnapping, and perhaps secretive oil sales. It does make me wonder where the money trail leads. Seems more cooperation based on convenience than anything else though.

Regarding arming the Syrian rebels, I'd have to agree with your assessment. Either give your full support or don't support them at all. I believe half-measures and imagined or real western reluctance to do very much must've been a blow to the morale of moderate opposition groups. Remember, the Syrian Army suffered from massive defections at the opening stages of the conflict. So seeing an ineffectual resistance compared to a more violent yet more effective resistance must've also reduced the number of moderate rebels. I believe the current US policy of arming the rebels is far too little and far too late to make any difference strategically and the weapons we give them, like TOW anti-tank missiles could be captured or given to groups we can consider to be unfriendly. You make a good point.
 

Rimasta

Member
Well once again, who is physically getting the benefits provided by US training and supplies? Unless there is a very clear answer to this question, the policy is at the very least irresponsible.
Sorry I meant to include this in my last reply. The group the US is supplying is called Harakat Hazm. They number about 5,000 fighters and are self-declared moderates.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
But I didn't say it in the same breath, I didn't mention supporting Syrian rebels (or Syria at all AFAIK) or advocate what *should* be done about supporting any particular faction.

As has been said before, it's not just 'dictator v rebel', rebels in Syria are turning against each other more and more every day. I say support the moderate groups, the ones who aren't hell bent on eradicating anybody different from them by burying women and children alive.

But that's Syria talk for the Syrian thread.
I'm not polemicizing with you, but rather with US foreign policy. Not the most fruitful activity I suppose... :(

Replying from my iPhone. It does appear ISIS has been involved in massacres in Iraq and Syria. There are reports of hundreds of men being executed in front of their families and women being abducted. There are also reports of ISIS taking captured civilians and using them as human shields in the city of Tel Afar.
That's a depressing development.

Sorry I meant to include this in my last reply. The group the US is supplying is called Harakat Hazm. They number about 5,000 fighters and are self-declared moderates.
That the only group the US supports, and nobody else gets any from it?
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
There are groups in Syria fighting Assad, and fighting ISIS. In fact there is talk amoung certain intelligence circles that Assad and ISIS cooperate on some level, despite the fact they are officially enemies.
I would be surprised if Assad and ISIS did not have contacts or some form of cooperation; after all, this is the Middle East. There was a recent report that Syria was buying oil obtained from fields captured by ISIS. We can go further: at one point Israel courted Hamas as an alternative to the corrupt Fatah and Jordan was more than happy to get Israeli help against Syria during Black September.

And remember how the Bush administration told us how ''evil ''the Talibs were and that there was absolutely no place for them in a future Afghanistan? Fast forward a few years later and talks were being held with the same Taliban, due to the realisation that they were a problem that was not going away and that they had to some political part in a future Afghanistan.

They number about 5,000 fighters and are self-declared moderates.
Are they really ''moderates '' or they just saying this to ingratiate themselves with the West? I'm very wary about clumping groups into ''moderates'' and ''extremists'' because there is often a very thin line between both and both can mean different things to different audiences. To a general audience a ''rebel'' who murders and talks about establing a ''Caliphate'' from the Maghrib to the Levant is an extremist and rightly so. What about a rebel who doesn't murder, and who doesn't believe in driving out ''heretic'' Shias but who wants to apply sharia law to a post-Assad Syria? Is he a ''moderate'' or an ''extremist''?

As long as there are flawed Western policies in the region, as long as several long term issues are not addressed and as long as the wrong Arab leaders come to power; unfortunately ISIS and groups like it will continue to attract willing recruits.
 

Rimasta

Member
Are they really ''moderates '' or they just saying this to ingratiate themselves with the West? I'm very wary about clumping groups into ''moderates'' and ''extremists'' because there is often a very thin line between both and both can mean different things to different audiences. To a general audience a ''rebel'' who murders and talks about establing a ''Caliphate'' from the Maghrib to the Levant is an extremist and rightly so. What about a rebel who doesn't murder, and who doesn't believe in driving out ''heretic'' Shias but who wants to apply sharia law to a post-Assad Syria? Is he a ''moderate'' or an ''extremist''?

As long as there are flawed Western policies in the region, as long as several long term issues are not addressed and as long as the wrong Arab leaders come to power; unfortunately ISIS and groups like it will continue to attract willing recruits.
It appears they are self-declared moderates comprised partly of what's left of the FSA movement. The program of supplying them weapons is only a pilot program. I do wonder if its partly because the CIA wants a way to get better intelligence out of Syria, satellites and drones can only tell so much.


It would seem flawed western policies have a long history in this particular area of the world, the drawing of national borders by the British being just one of many.

More US forces arrive in Northern Iraq, including US Marines and Special Operations soldiers supported by helicopters and MV-22's.

Defense News Mobile - US Military Aircraft Operating In Northern Iraq
 
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