War Against ISIS

surpreme

Member
100 year war

Is this start of the 100 year war in this region like the one that happen in Europe. Now look at the Iraqi region is this about to start now? Its a big mess you have a Iran/Saudi conflict which is being done under Shiite and Sunni beef or disagreement. ISIS is getting help from unknown sources no one know who behind it and where it originated from. Report from Mosul, Iraq when a leader of ISIS came in cellphones and communication were shut down this is the help of some foreign agency. Starting to think this is the battle between Iran/Saudi? Who will it benefit? In 2003 I always wanted to know why U.S. disband the Iraqi Army big mistake. The Iraqi Army is on the run now except for the Iraqi Special Forces. Maybe it's on the run because of Sunni in Iraqi Army that gave up. A lot of Iraqi soldiers who are Shiite finding themselves alone in Northern Iraq are running for there lives. Let's cut the BullS@it it's mostly a Shiite/Sunni battle and this going to last for a long time. Iraqi problem have to be settle on its own by Iraqis.
 
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bdique

Member
Iranian pilot is from the IRGC air force not Quds Force that a special forces unit. The mission of the Quds Forces is take over Jerusalem and protect Shiite shrines.
I quote the news article:

"It said Colonel Shoja'at Alamdari Mourjani was killed while "defending" Shiite Muslim holy sites in the city of Samarra, north of Baghdad.

...

Fars did not give any details, but hinted that Alamdari Mourjani was a member of Iran's Revolutionary Guard, whose elite Quds Force is believed to be on the ground and assisting Iraqi forces, despite Tehran's denials."

It would make perfect sense that the deceased is a member of the IRGC. An IrAF SU-25 with blacked out IRGC markings was spotted in Iraq.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Is this start of the 100 year war in this region like the one that happen in Europe.
People said the same thing in 1999, that Kosovo would lead to a war between NATO and Russia. It didn't happen.

Starting to think this is the battle between Iran/Saudi?
Saudi Arabia and Iran have been fighting a 'cold war' for years now; it's nothing new. What do you think the Iran/Iraq war was about or why Saudi and other Sunni Gulf states were so enthusiatic to back the FSA and other rebel groups fightining to overhtrow Assad junior? Why do you think Saudi was so anxious for strikes to be launched on Iran over the nuclear issue?

The Iraqi Army is on the run now except for the Iraqi Special Forces. Maybe it's on the run because of Sunni in Iraqi Army that gave up.
If what you said is true, ISIS would be at Basra and the border of Khuzestan by now ... Some regular Iraqi units melted away but not all did.

The mission of the Quds Forces is take over Jerusalem and protect Shiite shrines.
You're being overly simplistic and not very accurate. The mission of the Quds Force is a bit more than taking over Jerusalem and protecting Shiite shrines.
 
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Comrade69

Banned Member
So I am very late to this thread and just started paying attention to the Middle East situation.

What I cannot figure out and cannot find on google, is how did the ISIS become so powerful over night? Can someone explain this to me? They seem like they are just sweeping through city after city with no resistance, that not even the Iraq or Syria army cannot stop them or slow them down..

What kind of tech do they have, how did they get so many recruits and where are their funds coming from?

Like I said I just am having a hard time understanding how this group became so powerful so fast.




Also my buddy is on board the CVN-77(The George Bush) and called me a week ago and said that they left their original port weeks ago(Greece) and are on their way to the Middle East.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
What I cannot figure out and cannot find on google, is how did the ISIS become so powerful over night? Can someone explain this to me?
They didn't become powerful overnight. They have been around for a while and were originally part of Al Qaeda. They have a big presence in Syria.

They seem like they are just sweeping through city after city with no resistance, that not even the Iraq or Syria army cannot stop them or slow them down.
The Iraqis have been unable to capture much of the ground lost to ISIS but ISIS also hasn't done what it said it wanted to do a few weeks ago: to capture Baghdad.

What kind of tech do they have, how did they get so many recruits and where are their funds coming from?
They have the usual AK-47, Makarov, Dragunov, PKM, DShK, RGP-7 menu but have captured some Iraqi gear.

It is commonly believed that ISIS and groups like it; receive funding from Sunni Gulf states and also from wealthy individuals and organisations. We know for a fact that groups [what the West and Assad call extremists/terrorists] in Syria get support from countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar. You must also bear in mind that the situation in Syria is directly connected to current events in Iraq: the irony here is that certain countries want ISIS and groups to be defeated in Iraq but want them to succeed in Syria.

Like I said I just am having a hard time understanding how this group became so powerful so fast.
Various factors come into play: the longstanding Sunni/Shia schism, resentment with the Maliki government, years of flawed U.S. policy towards the region, past Western interference, flawed decisions taken by the U.S. in the aftermath of the invasion, meddling by foreign governments, etc.

If you take a look at previous posts by various members in this thread; you'll get a pretty good idea as to why Iraq is currently in the position it's in.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Defense-Aerospace.com has an article claiming the money spent on Afghanistan now exceeds the money spent by the Marshall Plan after WW2. Even if the inflation adjusted number was only 20-50% of that spent on the Marshall Plan, does anybody here think that this was a good idea? What about the numbers for Iraq? Is this more politically correct than the bombing back to the stone age concept?
 

anan

Member
4th Iraqi Army Division in Tal Afar

Remnant of the 4th Iraqi Army Division remain surrounded and trapped in Tal Afar, as they have been for two months. With the defeat of the KRG Peshmerga in Western Kurdistan, it is hard to see how they will be rescued.

What the Iraqis need more than anything are lots of C130s along with their attendant maintenance, operations and pilot crews to provide logistical support, and to allow the ISF to reinforce the many troops they have in Northern and Western Iraq that are besieged or surrounded by ISIS.

Would President Obama be willing to consider providing the ISF combat enabler support (ISR, C2, signals, advisers, trainers, maintenance, supply, transportation) in return for a national unity government being elected by parliament? Without providing help quickly, ISIS might succeed at capturing Damascus, much of Lebanon, parts of Jordan, pockets in North Africa and most of Iraq.

The number of people ISIS is killing is astronomical. Measured since 2003, ISIS has killed substantially more than 100 thousand people, probably more than 200 thousand people. This year alone ISIS has likely killed tens of thousands of people. Why doesn't this merit a unanimously UN endorsed mission to stop genocide and crimes against humanity? Sadly there appears to be more support for such a mission from China, Russia, France and the UK than there is from the US.
 

anan

Member
Defense-Aerospace.com has an article claiming the money spent on Afghanistan now exceeds the money spent by the Marshall Plan after WW2. Even if the inflation adjusted number was only 20-50% of that spent on the Marshall Plan, does anybody here think that this was a good idea? What about the numbers for Iraq? Is this more politically correct than the bombing back to the stone age concept?
John Fedup, the ANSF budget is about $5 billion a year. $6 billion if you include weapons platform acquisition amortization. The ANSF are suffering killed in action at about a 6 thousand per year rate, with approximately 15,000 injured per year. Most international aid helps fund the ANSF in their war against the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and their allies. Given the size of the enemy they confront and the extreme kinetic intensity of the conflict, why would you regard the ANSF budget as excessive?

The Taliban are simultaneously launching many brigade and battalion sized offensive across Afghanistan against the ANSF at this time. If the Taliban win, this would expand the global caliphate and likely lead to terrorist attacks all over the world. The damage to the global economy could be in the trillions of dollars.

It is far cheaper to pay for the ANSF than for the international community to engage in direct kinetic action against the global caliphate.
 

Rimasta

Member
What the Iraqi's need more than anything, is a victory, any victory to improve morale. With the IS seemingly marching from victory to victory, something needs to be done to wrest the initiative away from the IS. Maliki seems an obvious roadblock to most plans to reverse the situation however. Perhaps a joint operation, with Shia Iraqi's applying pressure from the South, while the Kurds attack from the North. This would present ISIS with having to confront offensives on two fronts in Iraq. The Iraqi's seem content with holding their positions, but fixed defenses in my view are monuments to the stupidity of mankind. Any defensive position can be overcome. The best defense, as we all know, is a good offense.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
John Fedup, the ANSF budget is about $5 billion a year. $6 billion if you include weapons platform acquisition amortization. The ANSF are suffering killed in action at about a 6 thousand per year rate, with approximately 15,000 injured per year. Most international aid helps fund the ANSF in their war against the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and their allies. Given the size of the enemy they confront and the extreme kinetic intensity of the conflict, why would you regard the ANSF budget as excessive?

The Taliban are simultaneously launching many brigade and battalion sized offensive across Afghanistan against the ANSF at this time. If the Taliban win, this would expand the global caliphate and likely lead to terrorist attacks all over the world. The damage to the global economy could be in the trillions of dollars.

It is far cheaper to pay for the ANSF than for the international community to engage in direct kinetic action against the global caliphate.
The reconstruction aid to Afghanistan since 2002 amounts to 102 billion. When Western troops finally pull out, do you really think this country won't revert back to the 6th century. This money has been wasted. The only question is which will be the bigger failure, Afghanistan or Iraq.
 

anan

Member
What the Iraqi's need more than anything, is a victory, any victory to improve morale. With the IS seemingly marching from victory to victory, something needs to be done to wrest the initiative away from the IS. Maliki seems an obvious roadblock to most plans to reverse the situation however. Perhaps a joint operation, with Shia Iraqi's applying pressure from the South, while the Kurds attack from the North. This would present ISIS with having to confront offensives on two fronts in Iraq. The Iraqi's seem content with holding their positions, but fixed defenses in my view are monuments to the stupidity of mankind. Any defensive position can be overcome. The best defense, as we all know, is a good offense.
The Iraqi Army and KRG Peshmerga have launched a series of major offensives against ISIS; and lost a lot of dead soldiers and equipment in the process.

ISIS has recently won a series of major offensives against Assad's remaining forces (and the Iranians and Hezbollah forces fighting alongside the rump Syrian Army), as well as killed large numbers of Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF.)

Without substantial additional international intervention (in addition to what Hezbollah, Iran and Russia are already providing the Syrian Army, Peshmerga, and Iraqi Army), it is likely that ISIS will overrun Damascus and most of the remaining parts of Syria under the control of Assad, Iran, and Hezbollah.

Much of Lebanon is likely to also fall under ISIS occupation. ISIS will probably launch invasions of Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, unless the Iraqi Army can stop them.

Arguably the strongest militia in Libya (Ansar al-Sharia) is considering formally joining ISIS. If it does, then ISIS could over time capture much of Libya, Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia, Mali, Chad, Sudan, Somalia and many other countries.

A small force of 10,000 US combat enablers could probably transform the momentum in Iraq quickly. Is Obama willing to consider this?
 

anan

Member
The reconstruction aid to Afghanistan since 2002 amounts to 102 billion. When Western troops finally pull out, do you really think this country won't revert back to the 6th century. This money has been wasted. The only question is which will be the bigger failure, Afghanistan or Iraq.
It is racist to suggest that Afghans will revert back to the 6th century.

The ANSF have suffered over 10 times as many dead soldiers that ISAF has endured over the past four years (over 15 thousand ANSF killed versus less than 1500 ISAF killed). The ANSF have effectively been fighting mostly on their own for many years.

Your comment is comparable to saying that the French could not survive in WWI and WWII without massive international help. Absolutely true; but this was less a function of French weakness than it was of German strength.

Similarly the Afghans would be able to survive against a modest enemy (for example an incompetent militia such as Hamas) reasonably well. But Al Qaeda and the Taliban and ISIS are a very formidable opponent. Arguably they are more powerful than any single Arab country, or Iran. To beat them, a comparable force is required.

One reason the Taliban/Al Qaeda/ISIS are so formidable is because of the substantial help they are believed to receive from the Persian Gulf and the Deep State. The Taliban/Al Qaeda/ISIS have successfully recruited over a hundred thousand volunteers from all over the world.

Probably a majority of the approximately 6 thousand ANSF killed per year are killed by foreign fighters. The Taliban are perceived by Afghans to represent a foreign occupation of their country.

It is widely believed in scores of countries around the world that US president Obama backs the Taliban, Al Qaeda and ISIS. I don't believe this, but well over a hundred million people (probably a lot more than that) do believe this. This propaganda that President Obama supports them is part of the Taliban's, Al Qaeda's, and ISIS' own propaganda . . . to give themselves an aura of invincibility and inevitability.

This widely believed conspiracy (that President Obama backs the Taliban and Al Qaeda) has been the largest single challenge the commanders of ISAF have confronted over the last five years. It is a major contributor to ANSF personal killing ISAF personal.

Do you want to live in a world that looks like this?:

ISIS Releases Map of 5-Year Plan to Spread from Spain to China

If a global caliphate ruled by ISIS/Al Qaeda/Taliban comes to pass, it is likely that they will kill millions of civilians all over the world. No country in the world would remain safe.

If you don't want this, what option do you have other than to continue to fund and provide combat enablers to the ANSF? The Afghans do not need international combat troops; but remain deeply reliant on international funding and international combat enablers. Afghans do not have any fixed wing close air support capability, and virtually no rotary wing close air support capacity. They have almost no tanks, and very few artillery pieces.

Interestingly, the reason this is true is because the international community has purposely blocked the training and equipping of the ANSF in an effort to alleviate fears in Pakistan and the Gulf.
 

anan

Member
It is racist to suggest that Afghans will revert back to the 6th century.

The ANSF have suffered over 10 times as many dead soldiers that ISAF has endured over the past four years (over 15 thousand ANSF killed versus less than 1500 ISAF killed). The ANSF have effectively been fighting mostly on their own for many years.

Your comment is comparable to saying that the French could not survive in WWI and WWII without massive international help. Absolutely true; but this was less a function of French weakness than it was of German strength.

Similarly the Afghans would be able to survive against a modest enemy (for example an incompetent militia such as Hamas) reasonably well. But Al Qaeda and the Taliban and ISIS are a very formidable opponent. Arguably they are more powerful than any single Arab country, or Iran. To beat them, a comparable force is required.

One reason the Taliban/Al Qaeda/ISIS are so formidable is because of the substantial help they are believed to receive from the Persian Gulf and the Deep State. The Taliban/Al Qaeda/ISIS have successfully recruited over a hundred thousand volunteers from all over the world.

Probably a majority of the approximately 6 thousand ANSF killed per year are killed by foreign fighters. The Taliban are perceived by Afghans to represent a foreign occupation of their country.

It is widely believed in scores of countries around the world that US president Obama backs the Taliban, Al Qaeda and ISIS. I don't believe this, but well over a hundred million people (probably a lot more than that) do believe this. This propaganda that President Obama supports them is part of the Taliban's, Al Qaeda's, and ISIS' own propaganda . . . to give themselves an aura of invincibility and inevitability.

This widely believed conspiracy (that President Obama backs the Taliban and Al Qaeda) has been the largest single challenge the commanders of ISAF have confronted over the last five years. It is a major contributor to ANSF personal killing ISAF personal.

Do you want to live in a world that looks like this?:

ISIS Releases Map of 5-Year Plan to Spread from Spain to China

If a global caliphate ruled by ISIS/Al Qaeda/Taliban comes to pass, it is likely that they will kill millions of civilians all over the world. No country in the world would remain safe.

If you don't want this, what option do you have other than to continue to fund and provide combat enablers to the ANSF? The Afghans do not need international combat troops; but remain deeply reliant on international funding and international combat enablers. Afghans do not have any fixed wing close air support capability, and virtually no rotary wing close air support capacity. They have almost no tanks, and very few artillery pieces.

Interestingly, the reason this is true is because the international community has purposely blocked the training and equipping of the ANSF in an effort to alleviate fears in Pakistan and the Gulf.
The Afghans also only have 4 C130 transportation aircraft. The Afghans remain deeply reliant on international transportation fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Anan, the $102 billion is not military spending but reconstruction costs. Do you really believe the Taliban won't return to power once foreign troops leave? Do you think they won't continue their 6th century BS? The Afghanistan forces will not survive on their own and I don't see the West having the will or means to continue supporting this venture, especially if they end up having to provide support to that other failed venture, Iraq.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
A general comment to all - if no effort is made to improve the quality of posts in the Iraq war/unrest/fighting thread via research or sources, we will have to consider closing the thread.

The thread is going down-hill fast; and it is fast becoming a "he said, she said" thread, without the willingness of people with opinions to provide researched details that has already been posted elsewhere in the forum, even.
 
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anan

Member
Anan, the $102 billion is not military spending but reconstruction costs. Do you really believe the Taliban won't return to power once foreign troops leave? Do you think they won't continue their 6th century BS? The Afghanistan forces will not survive on their own and I don't see the West having the will or means to continue supporting this venture, especially if they end up having to provide support to that other failed venture, Iraq.
The large majority of the $102 billion in aid was directed towards the ANSF. Much of this was spent on short term military affects.

For example, if someone wants to achieve X in 10 years, it costs $1 billion. However, if the same someone wants to achieve X in 1 year, it costs $10 billion. Military spending is a lot like that. Because of the desire to achieve quick results, ANSF spending was a let less efficient than it would have been had it been planned and executed in a long term optimized way. For example, the cost to construct many ANSF facilities was several times what it would have been if they had been constructed over a longer time frame.

The best estimate we have for the ANSF steady state budget currently planned is $4.6 billion a year. This is for a force planned to absorb about 6 K killed in action and about 15 K wounded in action per year, a rapid pace of kinetic operations, massive wear and tear on equipment, massive fuel consumption, massive ammunition and spare parts consumption, indefinitely.

The current ANSF TO/E is not designed to enable them to "win", merely maintain an indefinite war and stalemate.

Only 600 men and 50 woman per year are trained by the ANSF for more than 1 year. The vast majority of officers in the ANSF are only planned to receive 20 weeks of training over the course of their careers. The vast majority of NCOs in the ANSF are only planned to receive 4 weeks of additional training in addition to what an enlisted raw recruit gets over the course of their careers. The entire ANSF only has about 35 thousand training seats per year (number of ANSF officers, NCOs and enlisted being trained at any given time.) To professionally train ANSF officers and NCOs, the ANSF would probably need something similar to 80,000 training seats (similar to what the Iraqi Security Forces had from 2006 onwards.) This would be to professionalize the current ANSF strength of 353,000; not expand the size of the current force. The typical enlisted would continue to get approximately 8 weeks (Afghan Ministry of Interior) to 10 weeks of training as per current policy. However, officers and NCOs would get substantial additional training. Perhaps done in a staggered fashion. Every officer could be partnered with another officer in a two in the box fashion. They would alternate every six months. One trains while the other fights, flipping every six months. Every "officer" slot would be filled by two officers. Another option would be a 6 month train, 12 month fight, 6 month train, 12 month fight, 6 month train, 12 month fight, 6 month train . . . model.

In November 2009, General Petraeus, General McChrystal, LTG Caldwell, ISAF proposed a plan to develop a professional ANSF capable of decisively defeating the Taliban with a long term steady state budget of about $10 billion a year. A common number floating around in 2009 and 2010 was an $11 billion ANSF budget.

However in 2010 President Obama, overruled the generals at ISAF and NTM-A, and authorized a smaller, substantially less trained, and substantially less equipped ANSF. President Obama had good reasons from his point of view. He perhaps feared that the Pakistani Army and GCC would view the ANSF as a major threat and retaliate by supporting Al Qaeda and the Taliban. President Obama also might have been unsure the international community could over the long term fund an ANSF with a budget of more than $4.3 billion per year. That $4.3 billion long term ANSF budget has now been increased to $4.6 billion per year. Another reason why some Afghans believe President Obama was so reticent about supporting an Afghan victory against the Taliban and Al Qaeda in 2009 and 2010 might have been because of Afghanistan's close friendship or de facto alliance with India, Russia, Turkey, and Iran.

It is very unlikely the Taliban could ever decisively defeat the ANSF, just as the ANSF currently constituted cannot decisively defeat the Taliban. Neither has the TO/E, OOB and international support to decisively defeat the other. I have seen no evidence that the Deep State GHQ or GCC establishment are willing to surge the Taliban and Al Qaeda capacity substantially from current levels.

The Afghans are likely to remain deeply dependent on India, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Japan, China, Europe, America, South Korea, Australia and Canada for the foreseeable future. Japan's $1 billion a year in aid to Afghanistan remains crucial to funding the Afghan Ministry of Interior (Afghan National Police) and their training.

The Chinese are increasingly concerned about America's long term commitment to help the Afghans fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda. As a result they are starting discussion with India about how China and India can jointly help the Afghans:
Why India and China Matter to America's Afghanistan Drawdown Plan - Defense One

China is increasingly targeted by ISIS, Al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists.

Of course, Russia, India, China, Turkey, Japan, and the Europeans would greatly prefer collaborating with America to support the Afghans.

Given the significant threat of Al Qaeda and the Taliban attacking the American homeland (and the Chinese, Russian, Indian, Iranian, Turkish, European, Canadian, Australian, Iraqi, Syrian, Israeli, Palestinian, African, Malaysian, Thai, Indonesian homelands); and the danger of Al Qaeda and the Taliban capturing chemical and nuclear weapons, it is unlikely that the ANSF will not continue to receive massive international support for many years to come.

"The Afghanistan forces will not survive on their own"
If you mean international funding; absolutely true. Similarly the USSR could not survive against the Nazis in WWII without substantial international help.

Provided the ANSF gets $5 billion in funding per year, do you have any reason to believe the Afghans can't survive on their own? The Afghans have survived on their own controlling all the battle-space of Afghanistan for over a year with little ISAF support.
 

anan

Member
Afghan C-130s barely fly at all and when they fly they're not carrying full loads, why would deploying *more* increasing the maintenance and training reqs they can't currently cope with?

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/c-...-auditors-scratching-their-heads-26ca29e820db
The short answer is that the Afghans need a lot more than 4 C130s (especially since no procurement of other smaller transportation aircraft is planned by the ANAF.) However, the ANAC lacks the organic capacity to pilot, operate, maintain them at this time. In large part this is because the Afghan National Air Force (ANAF) was surprised when they first received C130s a year ago.

Major General MG Karimi's ANATC (ANA Training Command) needs a lot more training seats to support the ANAF, and to maintain and operate the rest of the equipment skew stack in the ANSF.

C130s are easier to maintain than C27s. Even the US airforce is phasing out their relatively new C27s partly because of high maintenance costs.

The Afghans have asked India to become the lead adviser for the ANAF. India has considerable expertise operating C130s and could help the Afghans effectively operate them. Turkey could similarly help the ANAF operate C130s. So could the US and other countries.

The Afghans have requested India purchase new AN-32s for the ANAF; which could be used for smaller payloads.

The Afghans have on a related note requested that India donate the 550 D30 artillery pieces that India is currently retiring from the Indian Army. In the past President Obama opposed countries donating artillery to the ANA, however his views might be different now.

India Stepping Up to the Plate in Afghanistan | The Diplomat
 
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