The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

Heh, this might've wound CFK up

Comemorações aos 100 Anos da Força de Submarinos | Poder Naval - Marinha de Guerra, Tecnologia Militar Naval e Marinha Mercante

USS Dallas (US), SNA Amethyste (French) and HMS Ambush (UK) were docked in Brazil in July to celebrate 100 years of submarine operations by Brazil.

 

[kev 99]

Heh, this might've wound CFK up

Comemorações aos 100 Anos da Força de Submarinos | Poder Naval - Marinha de Guerra, Tecnologia Militar Naval e Marinha Mercante

USS Dallas (US), SNA Amethyste (French) and HMS Ambush (UK) were docked in Brazil in July to celebrate 100 years of submarine operations by Brazil.

Don't think she needs much winding up to be honest, bet she's a nightmare when she's got PMT.

:spam

Still nice opportunity to have a play with friends on deployment on the other side of the planet, an opportunity to wind up our favourite SA head of state is purely incidental.

 

[RobWilliams]

It's just funny in the age of South American solidarity about rejecting UK vessels from docking at their ports, potentially the biggest bogeyman of the fleet shows up in Brazil.

I expect the Brazilians are pretty keen on learning about nuke operations in preparation for getting their first boat in service. Different services have different styles and you probably can't get a better idea of the best way to run *your* fleet when you've got the US, UK and France boats and crews to have a play with.

Brazil have a good fleet of SSKs too, so it probably wasn't all one way learning if there was learning to be had.

 

[swerve]

Don't think she needs much winding up to be honest, bet she's a nightmare when she's got PMT.

Too old for that.

 

[kev 99]

Too old for that.

"bet she was a nightmare when she had PMT."

Fixed

 

[ngatimozart]

"bet she was a nightmare when she had PMT."

Fixed

You should be glad you ain't married to it - or Helen Clark

 

[Riga]

It's just funny in the age of South American solidarity about rejecting UK vessels from docking at their ports, potentially the biggest bogeyman of the fleet shows up in Brazil.

I expect the Brazilians are pretty keen on learning about nuke operations in preparation for getting their first boat in service. Different services have different styles and you probably can't get a better idea of the best way to run *your* fleet when you've got the US, UK and France boats and crews to have a play with.

Brazil have a good fleet of SSKs too, so it probably wasn't all one way learning if there was learning to be had.

Have Brazil not just started building (designing) their own SSN?

I assume the Brazilians would have been very happy to be so up close and personal with the NATO subs.

However, and sorry to harp pope) on, but I can see only 6 Brit subs in service at the moment - and for sure, some of the T Boats may be alongside for maintenance (they are long in the tooth) and training etc - so although it is welcome to see one of our boats near the South Atlantic, what is left to cover the rest of our requirements?

 

[RobWilliams]

They have, they're working with DCNS to finalise the design (based on a Scorpene hull IIRC).

One of our standing requirements is to have a boat deployed to the ME/Indian Ocean region, presumably when the QEC come into play then another requirement would be escort (or sorties to the ME might end up that the outbound boat replaces the standing boat which returns home with the task group).

No idea what the availability is on our boats, but with two deployed we could possibly squeeze another 2 which 'could' be deployed.

As ever, these are ball park. If we desperately needed as many boats to sail as possible, all those doing training would be deployed (and train on the way) and depending on the depth of maintenance, those which are just routine would be massively sped up to at least rotate in to replace already deployed boats.

 

[harryriedl]

A new update on the T26 on DID
Britain’s Future Frigates: Type 26 & 27 Global Combat Ships
Contract stuff we now have a figure for the total cost of the project 4 billion for the first 8 vessels(I have a feeling this isn't right and DID have missed something) with a contract signed before the next election

 

[RobWilliams]

It says the RN wants 13 ships for £4bn total rather than just the 8 which works out at a projected cost of ~£310million a pop which is more or less where they wanted it (250 - 350).

Expect cost rises. They will happen as the projected amount is usually always underestimated.

 

[harryriedl]

It says the RN wants 13 ships for £4bn total rather than just the 8 which works out at a projected cost of ~£310million a pop which is more or less where they wanted it (250 - 350).

Expect cost rises. They will happen as the projected amount is usually always underestimated.

I would expect far less cost growth compared with the T45 due to extensive de-risking compared with T45's.

 

[kev 99]

Expect cost rises. They will happen as the projected amount is usually always underestimated.

+ It's made by BAE.

But Harry is probably right and that there should be much less cost growth than with the T45, plus I would expect the new 'Frigate Factory' to have much lower costs than building modules at 3 shipyards and then shipping them to 1 for assembly.

 

[RobWilliams]

Agreed, the idea of a more centralised construction centre, the idea of pulling the kit through from the Type 23s and how relatively 'low risk' it was compared to the Type 45 and make it seem like cost rises are being specifically targeted.

I'd love it if they come under, may as well keep the facility ticking over until the Type 45's need replacing.

 

[StobieWan]

I get the impression the spec seems fairly stable..I dunno - if the Scots don't press the eject button and the economy doesn't slide off the cliff, we may see them come in on budget.

 

[Riga]

It says the RN wants 13 ships for £4bn total rather than just the 8 which works out at a projected cost of ~£310million a pop which is more or less where they wanted it (250 - 350).

Expect cost rises. They will happen as the projected amount is usually always underestimated.

Is there not an automatic 66% bias added on at the beginning courtesy of the Treasury?

I was under the impression that any government procurement contract had the bias added to alleviate the risk of cost mis-management and to justify the investment. Are MOD insulated from this?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Is there not an automatic 66% bias added on at the beginning courtesy of the Treasury?

I was under the impression that any government procurement contract had the bias added to alleviate the risk of cost mis-management and to justify the investment. Are MOD insulated from this?

It's usually called "contingency" - and on some procurement the "c" can be up to 50% of the platform price (+ profit estimate to the vendor)

contingency covers exchange rate and core currency fluctuations, as well as an average float to counter delays etc

 

[Riga]

It's usually called "contingency" - and on some procurement the "c" can be up to 50% of the platform price (+ profit estimate to the vendor)

contingency covers exchange rate and core currency fluctuations, as well as an average float to counter delays etc

So IF MOD can manage the T26 courtesy of lessons learned on writing contracts and monitoring performance, these ships might come in considerably cheaper given the investment in facilities and the pull through of proven equipment off the T23. Should I BOLD the if?

Of course that achievable lower figure really would give us a platform that compete in the international market. New Zealand and Canada spring to mind as potential buyers. Thoughts?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Of course that achievable lower figure really would give us a platform that compete in the international market. New Zealand and Canada spring to mind as potential buyers. Thoughts?

without knowing what the "real" MOD and Treasury/Exchequer figures are, anything I say would be rubbish comment

But, export sales are always a way to bring down overall costs. That applies as long as each country doesn't bugger up the baseline design by modifying it enough for home use to make it more expensive that it was going to end up being. in the first place.

keep away the "good idea fairies" and you have a chance.

 

[RobWilliams]

So IF MOD can manage the T26 courtesy of lessons learned on writing contracts and monitoring performance, these ships might come in considerably cheaper given the investment in facilities and the pull through of proven equipment off the T23. Should I BOLD the if?

Of course that achievable lower figure really would give us a platform that compete in the international market. New Zealand and Canada spring to mind as potential buyers. Thoughts?

There certainly seems to be far more boxes ticked on the Type 26 to make it affordable compared to - say - the Type 45.

• Larger production run
• Less risk through developmental equipment
• More equipment pulled through (T23 CSP)
• Depending on Indyref, a more streamlined production process*
• Potential exports (which will be built abroad)

I wonder how much of the equipment for the Type 26 can be chalked down to the Type 23 CSP (radar, missiles, sonar) through clever accounting, for example.

*BAEs 'frigate factory' which may or may not have one yard to do all the work or two yards split with one mainly building the hull and the second adding the systems and finishing off.

 

[RobWilliams]

Real lack of info about COUGAR 14, the task group has deployed but there's not been any info about escorts.

Deployed ships are Ocean, Bulwark, Lyme Bay & Wave Knight but I can't find any info about escorts - probably two frigates - which is a bit strange.

Any thoughts?