Royal New Zealand Air Force

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
A few more links that may be of interest from Flightglobal

FARNBOROUGH: RAF ramps up A400M delivery rate - 7/14/2014 - Flight Global
RAF A400 deliveries being brought forward. If NZ seriously considers the A400, the RAF will be a valuable source of info on how the aircraft has performed o introduction to service. And a source of trained crews and technicians to pinch!

FARNBOROUGH: TP400 powers A400M operating success - 7/15/2014 - Flight Global
Engine maker talks up engine reliability - no surprises here. Article does confirm that Malaysia, the first real export customer, will get the first of 4 examples early next year.

FARNBOROUGH: KC-390 moves off the drawing board - 7/15/2014 - Flight Global
Meanwhile, at the smaller end of the market Embraer seems to moving the KC390 project along with impressive speed.

FARNBOROUGH: Dutch NH-90 corrosion countered - 7/17/2014 - Flight Global
NH Industries seems to be taking the Dutch corrosion reports seriously - bit embarrassing when your brand new naval helicopter goes rusty.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
New Zealand Beechcraft T-6Cs on schedule | Australian Aviation

From Farnborough, Beechcraft confirms the T6s are on schedule.

h/t Australia Aviation
Would be great if RNZAF's T-6C would be armed with rockets and Mk82 for CAS roles. That would give some limited air support NZ Army would need from time to time.

I hope in another few years time RNZAF would consider getting some LIFT like the TA-50 or M-346. I know what people think abut fast jets in RNZAF orbat. I am not proposing RNZAF buying any real front-line fast jets, just some LIFT to keep the airforce current in operating jets, just so in the future if the geo-politics change significantly and require RNZAF to re-introduce fast jets, they will already have trained pilots operating them on moments notice.

Just some food for thoughts.
 

NZviper18

New Member
Unfortunately, it seems that the T-6Cs will only be used for training purposes which is strange as they are designed to train pilots for fast jets such as F-18s and maybe they would have been better off, for the purposes of the current RNZAF fleet of larger dual engine aircraft, purchasing more updated beechcraft models of the current training aircraft (the exact model escapes me). However maybe the purchase of these T-6Cs point to a future ambitious RNZAF looking or maybe just perhaps hoping for the re-emergence of fast air over NZ.

I have not looked to overly deeply into the T-6s so please correct me if im wrong however i am adamant about their as of this stage use as training aircraft only
 

Ocean1Curse

Member
Unfortunately, it seems that the T-6Cs will only be used for training purposes which is strange as they are designed to train pilots for fast jets such as F-18s and maybe they would have been better off, for the purposes of the current RNZAF fleet of larger dual engine aircraft, purchasing more updated beechcraft models of the current training aircraft (the exact model escapes me). However maybe the purchase of these T-6Cs point to a future ambitious RNZAF looking or maybe just perhaps hoping for the re-emergence of fast air over NZ.

I have not looked to overly deeply into the T-6s so please correct me if im wrong however i am adamant about their as of this stage use as training aircraft only
The short answer is no. New Zealand will not be getting fast jets. Senior members of DT have repeated this on many occasions. Because this argument has been thrown back forth and upside down in this thread alone.

If you start back at about page 7 and read on. You will see why New Zealand will not get an ACF.
 

Oberon

Member
The short answer is no. New Zealand will not be getting fast jets. Senior members of DT have repeated this on many occasions. Because this argument has been thrown back forth and upside down in this thread alone.

If you start back at about page 7 and read on. You will see why New Zealand will not get an ACF.
Of course, if NZ did want to get back into the ACF field there may be some low mileage ex RAAF F-18Fs available from early 2020s.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Would be great if RNZAF's T-6C would be armed with rockets and Mk82 for CAS roles. That would give some limited air support NZ Army would need from time to time.

I hope in another few years time RNZAF would consider getting some LIFT like the TA-50 or M-346. I know what people think abut fast jets in RNZAF orbat. I am not proposing RNZAF buying any real front-line fast jets, just some LIFT to keep the airforce current in operating jets, just so in the future if the geo-politics change significantly and require RNZAF to re-introduce fast jets, they will already have trained pilots operating them on moments notice.

Just some food for thoughts.
At present we cannot presume that the T6C will utilised for anything else than what has been publicly stated. The only organisation who would have use for CAS, the NZ Army, has not so far asked for this capability and until it does so, any CAS capability will not be looked at by the NZG. Considering that the NZ Army was a player in the politics of the ACF disbandment it may be keeping a low profile in this case. Secondly funding would have to be made available for such a capability to be acquired and made operational. At the present point in time such funding would more than likely be taken from another capability which is of equal if not greater importance. Therefore IMHO we will not see any such capability in the immediate or foreseeable future, nor shall we see LIFT nor a standing up of an ACF unless there is trillions of dollars of oil and gas found in our EEZ.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Of course,or similard want to get back into the ACF field there may be some low mileage ex RAAF F-18Fs available from early 2020s.
Nope, I believe they're leased or similar and will return to the US when they complete RAAF service.
 

Oberon

Member
Nope, I believe they're leased or similar and will return to the US when they complete RAAF service.
I know they will go back to the US at the end of the lease. I was implying that NZ could buy them from the lessor if NZ wanted to re-establish an ACF, which is probably not likely in any case.
 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
I agree i do not see NZ getting a ACF back. But an air platform that could perform CAS and ISR would be useful. In a few years time there should be an option to acquire a UCAV. From a roles perspective a UCAV could be used to support the army with ISR and CAS and in the maritime domain it could perform these as well including EEZ patrols. That would tick the multi-role box and support other govt agencies. I would not see this being looked at until late 2020s so plenty of time for the technology to mature.
Would NZ be interested in this type of capability?
Just wondering if people in the RNZAF are thinking about this as it could align with the T6C ability to be armed and a possible future training platform for UCAV pilots.
 
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TwoTwoFour

New Member
Nope, I believe they're leased or similar and will return to the US when they complete RAAF service.
They were purchased and are owned by the Oz govt. When the purchase was announced it was indicated that they might be sold back to the USN on arrival of the F-35. But since then that program has slipped and no decision about a final batch of F-35 has been made as yet.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Nope, I believe they're leased or similar and will return to the US when they complete RAAF service.
We bought them outright, I believe there is an 'understanding' that they will go to the USN in years to come, but we didn't lease them and the day of their retirement is still so far in the future, I think any speculation is just that... :)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We bought them outright, I believe there is an 'understanding' that they will go to the USN in years to come, but we didn't lease them and the day of their retirement is still so far in the future, I think any speculation is just that... :)
Cool, thanks for that. I had read something about them going back to the US but couldn't remember the circumstances so thought it might've been a lease. Anyways as you say it's all speculation and unless something significant happens to scare the crap out of the kiwi pollies and / or public, a RNZAF ACF in any form is not going to happen, dead, died, bereft of life, etc., etc. :D
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
I know they will go back to the US at the end of the lease. I was implying that NZ could buy them from the lessor if NZ wanted to re-establish an ACF, which is probably not likely in any case.
As allready stated NZ wont re-establish an ACF (and I don't think they should).
But if that was on the cards why would we want "low millage" F18's. They would be at least a generation behind the capabilities of our allies and inferior to anylikely enemy fighters in Asia Pacific. SuperHornets would be another matter.

Theres a line of thought that repeatedly pops up here and on other forums: "We should get some cast off f16s/f18s/blackhawks from the yanks/Aussies wouldn't that be awsome" I don''t think it would- we would be maintaining perpetually inferior capabilities. These would be great at airshows etc, and may provide NZDF with some niche capabilities to offer, but the cost of generating and maintaining what would be an inferior Air COMBAT force- seems like a waste of money. If NZDF/NZG does feel the need to invest in new capabilities- we should buy current tech. Stated aim of NZDF is having "Credible combat capability."

my 2 cents
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As allready stated NZ wont re-establish an ACF (and I don't think they should).
But if that was on the cards why would we want "low millage" F18's. They would be at least a generation behind the capabilities of our allies and inferior to anylikely enemy fighters in Asia Pacific. SuperHornets would be another matter.

Theres a line of thought that repeatedly pops up here and on other forums: "We should get some cast off f16s/f18s/blackhawks from the yanks/Aussies wouldn't that be awsome" I don''t think it would- we would be maintaining perpetually inferior capabilities. These would be great at airshows etc, and may provide NZDF with some niche capabilities to offer, but the cost of generating and maintaining what would be an inferior Air COMBAT force- seems like a waste of money. If NZDF/NZG does feel the need to invest in new capabilities- we should buy current tech. Stated aim of NZDF is having "Credible combat capability."

my 2 cents
Well said. :)
 

t68

Well-Known Member
As allready stated NZ wont re-establish an ACF (and I don't think they should).
But if that was on the cards why would we want "low millage" F18's. They would be at least a generation behind the capabilities of our allies and inferior to anylikely enemy fighters in Asia Pacific. SuperHornets would be another matter.

Theres a line of thought that repeatedly pops up here and on other forums: "We should get some cast off f16s/f18s/blackhawks from the yanks/Aussies wouldn't that be awsome" I don''t think it would- we would be maintaining perpetually inferior capabilities. These would be great at airshows etc, and may provide NZDF with some niche capabilities to offer, but the cost of generating and maintaining what would be an inferior Air COMBAT force- seems like a waste of money. If NZDF/NZG does feel the need to invest in new capabilities- we should buy current tech. Stated aim of NZDF is having "Credible combat capability."

my 2 cents
If price was not to be taken into account and if the RAAF get the F35B NZ should leverage off the OZ buy, the same reasons the goverment is looking into these are some of the very same reasons a joint STOVL Anzac group could make usefull contribution if the RAN was to acquire a capabilty that would enhance the ability of a STOVL joint task group of the Anzac nations.

Not going to happen but it would still be a valuable asset for NZ.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I highly doubt if we ever did get back in the game (again highly unlikely, a lot more pressing priorities) that we would jump straight into top tier as we would essentially be starting from scratch, learn to crawl before we walk not straight into running so to speak.

Our allies are getting F35s as it is the next logical step for them in their force evolution and they have a benchmark to go off (and operations/requirements to suit), for us putting some unguided rockets onto the T6s will be a major advancement (as primitive as that sounds) so something like F16 will still be a pretty huge leap in our sphere and probably more aligned to what WE would do or more importantly what our govt would be inclined to commit to.

Do not always go off our allies as to what we should or should not have or level of tech required as NZ is vastly different to Oz is different to UK is different to US. We may go on the same ops to do a overall similar job but we also go about and achieve the end result in different ways as well.

In terms of fast jets you just have to compare old 75sqn firstly to our Aus counterparts in a regional context then say to UK/US operational squadrons in a international context for example and think back to what they/we actually did/do and why would this position change? Nothing in our bubble and operational posture or willingness to me screams F35 that could not be equally achieved with F16 or even armed T6 in terms of what we would actually use them for. It more just seems a case of keeping up with the Jonses, state of the art and cutting edge is nothing if there is no willingness to 'use' in the first place, looks good in the hanger but those sleek lines cost in turn.

Anyway if we are requiring F35 to win the fight chances are we are in over our heads to start with.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Or look outside the square and go straight to a UCAV capability, as they evolve, instead of rebuilding a manned ACF at all. Start with an optionally armed surveillance type before progressively moving to something like the UCLAS types the USN are trialing now.
 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
Completely agree. There will always be a requirement for a man in the loop but that does not mean they need to be inside the aircraft. I think NZ should get experience with UAV. Start with ISR and then progress to a UCAV.
 

Reaver

New Member
Hi everyone, I have been watching the site for a couple of months and thought it was time to join the conversation with a new RNZAF topic.

I am interested in the communities view on what the potential options for the Defence Capital Plan (DCP) Future Air Mobility Capability (FAMC) and Future Air Surveillance Capability (FASC) Projects (i.e. C-130/757/P-3K2 replacements) may be. I am interested in your vision of what type/number of platforms would meet the NZDFs current Mobility & Surveillance requirements, what are the advantages/disadvantages or your suggestions, how would the NZDF have to change the way it currently does business to utilise your suggestions and finally is this an affordable realistic option, both time wise and staying within the Governments stated budget intentions (links to any definitive costings would be appreciated).

It would be appreciated if you could provide the justification behind the statements you make so that everyone understands why you making the argument for one option over another, this allows for an understanding on the robustness of your choices. I look forward to reading your replies.
 
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