Ukranian Crisis

[AegisFC]

There have been other, similar suggestions. It's being said that the launcher vehicle has a radar, but a limited one, & this system may have lacked the dedicated vehicle which carries the main radar. Therefore it could operate, but at reduced capacity.

Combined with a probably ill-trained crew, & it's easy to see how they could make this mistake. They may have shot at anything they could, assuming (because they'd never thought to check, though it's be easy) that anything overhead was Ukrainian.

Poorly trained & trigger-happy is a dangerous combination.

Then I doubt this secondary radar has an IFF interagator.

 

[Feanor]

I have to admit the level of witnessed (TV reporters onsite) looting, is an utter disgrace.. The basic integrity of the crash site isn't being properly maintained and as reported by the OSCE monitors who were to be given some basic access of assessment today, were denied access to one site with warning shots fired by seperatist rebels / guards / thugs (reportedly it was a Cossack unit).

Feanor - are you able to confirm?

I can't confirm, but I would not be surprised to hear it was the case. Can you honestly expect the integrity of the crash site to be maintained by the rebels? Come on...

The rebel leaders themselves have stated that they are quite unhappy with a lot of their personnel, due to their criminal past, undisciplined behavior, and general tendency to bad behavior. There have been many instances of the rebels executing their own over murders, rapes, and attempts at racketeering. The rebels also have special penal duties, including digging trenches, and other hard labor, for those among their own number caught doing wrongs not worth executing over.

So I wouldn't expect much from them as far as being professional, disciplined, or well behaved.

Aircraft crash Investigators (assuming they get in) still should have enough onsite. Key will be the CVR and FDR being handed over.. And if so, let's hope it isn't another 8 year wait.

The rebels were saying the black boxes are "lost". But honestly it's all unclear at this point.

Yeah.

The behaviour of some of the rebels guarding the crash site, who one would expect to be told to be good because they'd be on worldwide TV, doesn't inspire confidence. Drunk, meddling with the evidence, posing with possessions of crash victims, etc. The firemen & the civilian volunteers locating & marking bodies & body parts seemed like ordinary decent people, but I'd not want those guards on my side.

This. ^

There is no way that the system could be used by "people who had no previous experience", since these are very complex systems, typically some of the most complicated any army operates.

I had a limited training on GIRAFFE radar which is used by Serbian army as target acquisition and guidance radar for battery of Bofors 30 mm guns. I was "trained" as an operator, and I must say it is not something you can learn in two weeks. Hell, conscripts like me, haven't learn much in six months (which was the duration military service, when I was serving). In fact, the radar was operated by professional cadre, officers and NCO-s, and even our training officer was aware of the fact that it is utter bollocks, to think that he could train bunch of nine-teen year old conscripts anything useful in the given time frame.

And that is exactly what is puzzling me in this mess. You simply can not just stumble upon the dozens of people with enough expertise, to operate these systems. They have to be professionals - the question is where did these people come from. Unfortunately, there is only one answer - Russia.

If it gets proven that the rebel BUK was manned by Russian staff, this will be a political disaster for Russians.

Pretty much the entire ex-USSR has conscription. Some of those conscripts serve 1 or 2 years in air defense units. There are unofficial training camps on the Russian side of the border where personnel is sorted by MOS, and sent to appropriate rebel locations. That's probably where they got the SAM operators.

 

[Feanor]

Update.

NOTE: I will not post info on the airliner shootdown until I have something solid. I'll be happy to voice opinions and participate in speculation in my other posts, but don't expect to see much on it in my updates until real information is there.

An interview with soldiers of the 72nd Mech Bde. Their camp was hit at Zelenopolye, and they say that 4 trucks worth of corpses were pulled out of there (officially 19 are dead).

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - "Четыре УÐ*ÐЛа погибших людей..."

Massive fighting has taken place around Lugansk, and artillery has continued to rain down on the city killing civilians mostly. The government claims they have control of the south-east of the city and have (again) unblocked the airport. Last time they claimed this, it turned out to be mildly untrue. The situation is messy, but I suspect most of the destroyed vehicles and arty in the photos are rebel.

EDIT: I seem to be mistaken. The destroyed positions are suposedly Ukrainian army positions near Krasnodon, i.e. maneuver element south, wrecked by the rebels.

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ЛуганÑк и не только...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ЛуганÑкое пекло...
http://blogs.korrespondent.net/blog/politics/3394487/

Another allegedly rebel UAV downed.

zloy_odessit -

Ukrainian volunteers attempt to bring supplies to their surrounded troops but can't get through. If you watch the video you can see many destroyed government positions, as a result of rebel Grad fire. It gives a good idea of the kind and scale of the destruction and casualties being taken.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Поездка волонтеров

Prime Minister Boroday of the DNR with his guards.

ЧаÑтный руÑÑкий журнал - 5 бород

Improvised armored vehicles using UAZ vans, at the Nikolaev armor plant. A fairly pathetic spectacle, in my opinion.

Gur Khan attacks!: "
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - БронеУÐЗ-3303 Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð³Ñ€Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¸ÐºÐ¾Ð²

Ukrainian MoD is considering returning 2S1 SP Arty from storage to service.

Минобороны Украины раÑÑматривает возможноÑÑ‚ÑŒ Ð²Ð¾Ð·Ð²Ñ€Ð°Ñ‰ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð² Ñтрой СÐУ 2С1 "Гвоздика"

Lavrov threatens to suppress Ukrainian artillery firing into Russia.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Про обÑтрелы

The Ukrainian air force navigator on trial in Russia will be prosecuted for crimes against Russian citizens.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðîññèéñêèé ñóä ïðè àðåñòå óêðàèíñêîé ëåò÷èöû Ñàâ÷åíêî "ïðèçíàë" ñàìîïðîâîçãëàøåííûå ðåñïóáëèêè â Äîíáàññå

A column of Russian troops headed towards Ukraine. Note the Grad on Kamaz chassis, with the Guards signs on the doors. This is probably the 19th Motor-Rifles.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlTbX54QSkc#t=126"]РСЗО. ÐžÐ³Ñ€Ð¾Ð¼Ð½Ð°Ñ ÐºÐ¾Ð»Ð¾Ð½Ð½Ð° роÑÑийÑких Градов едет бомбить Украину. 17.07.2014 - YouTube[/nomedia]

Ukraine may be getting into a trade war with Belarus, after instituting some retaliatory tariffs.

*

US and EU passed additional sanctions against Russian weapons and resource export companies.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÑØÀ è ÅÑ ââåëè äîïîëíèòåëüíûå ñàíêöèè ïðîòèâ Ðîññèè. Ðåàêöèÿ Ïóòèíà: "Äà ÷òî âû!"

Photo and video of the OSCE observers and rebel guards near the crash site. It looks like the OSCE does have access to the site now.

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ЛуганÑк и не только...

 

[STURM]

A Malaysian Special Disaster Assistance and Rescue Team [Smart] - comprising people from the Department of Civil Aviation, a forensic team and doctors from the Disaster Victim Identification Unit - have left for Kiev and will attempt to reach the site. Whether they even manage to gain access to the site or even territory controlled by the separatists remains to be seen. The SMART team has in the past deployed to Indonesia and the Philippines to perform disaster relief and assistance work.

 

[OPSSG]

A Malaysian Special Disaster Assistance and Rescue Team [Smart] - comprising people from the Department of Civil Aviation, a forensic team and doctors from the Disaster Victim Identification Unit - have left for Kiev and will attempt to reach the site. Whether they even manage to gain access to the site or even territory controlled by the separatists remains to be seen. The SMART team has in the past deployed to Indonesia and the Philippines to perform disaster relief and assistance work.

RIP for those killed in MH17. Words cannot adequately express my shared sorrow with the families and loved ones of those on MH17 for their loss.

It is my hope that Malaysia's team will be given access, so that the dead can be recovered and buried in accordance with their respective religious rites. My main concern right now is simply to recover the dead and give them a dignified burial in their respective countries and where possible, in accordance with their religious beliefs so that the families affected can have closure - instead of the bodies being left in the debris field.

I wish the Malaysian team all the best and a safe journey, as they embark on this difficult task.

 

[wittmanace]

RIP for those killed in MH17. Words cannot adequately express my shared sorrow with the families and loved ones of those on MH17 for their loss.

It is my hope that Malaysia's team will be given access, so that the dead can be recovered and buried in accordance with their respective religious rites. My main concern right now is simply to recover the dead and give them a dignified burial in their respective countries and where possible, in accordance with their religious beliefs so that the families affected can have closure - instead of the bodies being left in the debris field.

I wish the Malaysian team all the best and a safe journey, as they embark on this difficult task.

yes, RIP to the dead, and best wishes to their loved ones.

What are the potential punishments here? State sanctions or individuals wanted and tried?

 

[Goknub]

While both sides will obviously use this to their advantage, I believe it will most likely be chalked up as collateral damage due to the fog of war.

At this stage, there seems to be no intent to target civilian aircraft and the recordings of the Separatists reinforce this. They were operating under the belief they were targeting a military transport. Whilst it is a tragedy, it is not a crime (war or otherwise). Unless the Ukrainians win and dispense victor's justice.

Flying through an active air-combat zone including the repeated shoot down of military transport aircraft is beyond stupid.

 

[STURM]

Flying through an active air-combat zone including the repeated shoot down of military transport aircraft is beyond stupid.

The fact remains that the aircraft and others like it were flying at 33,000 feet along a route approved by the ICAO and Eurocontrol. At that height, aircraft are safe from small arms fire and MANPADS: nobody would have predicted the possibility of someone using a medium range system on what they thought was a legitimate military target

If we're going to close the airspace of any region that is involved in a conflict, we must as well start with parts of Afghanistan and northern Iraq but we haven't. Yes we can point out that there is no danger of an air to air engagement in Afghanistan and Iraq and little chance of insurgents getting hold of a medium range system but there's always the posiibility of danger ...

What really annoys me is that almost 48 hours after the incident, bodies are still lying in the field and strapped to seats. I also don't get why despite receiving permission to get to the crash site, that the OSCE team found their movements curtailed by a local commander. The manifest has revealed that there were also 2 dogs and 9 birds in the cargo hold.

 

[Volkodav]

The fact remains that the aircraft and others like it were flying at 33,000 feet along a route approved by the ICAO and Eurocontrol. At that height, aircraft are safe from small arms fire and MANPADS: nobody would have predicted the possibility of someone using a medium range system on what they thought was a legitimate military target

If we're going to close the airspace of any region that is involved in a conflict, we must as well start with parts of Afghanistan and northern Iraq but we haven't. Yes we can point out that there is no danger of an air to air engagement in Afghanistan and Iraq and little chance of insurgents getting hold of a medium range system but there's always the posiibility of danger ...

What really annoys me is that almost 48 hours after the incident, bodies are still lying in the field and strapped to seats. I also don't get why despite receiving permission to get to the crash site, that the OSCE team found their movements curtailed by a local commander. The manifest has revealed that there were also 2 dogs and 9 birds in the cargo hold.

I suppose the issue is that the assumption , until this tragedy, was that longer ranged SAMs would be more tightly controlled than the MANPADs used so often by terrorists, separatists, freedom fighters etc. It was quite reasonable to assume that any longer range weapons would be a part of an integrated system and controlled by responsible adults following established rules of engagement, rules that would have ensured the safety of any civilian aircraft.

 

[Twain]

looks like OCSE observers are still being denied acces to the crash site.

Pressimus | Press | Published by Interpreter_Mag


No one has any idea where the black boxes are, and according to several reports, things are being removed from the crash site.

"Michael Bociurkiw, a member of the OSCE team, said their access had been limited despite assurances from the regional rebel commander that they would be allowed into the site.

"A visibly intoxicated armed guard fired his rifle in the air when one of the observers walked out of the prescribed area," Mr Bociurkiw told journalists.

The 25 monitors withdrew after just over an hour, having been been unable to set up an access corridor for specialist teams to investigate the crash, he added."


if they ever get access to investigate the crash, a lot of evidence is going to be either contaminated or just plain gone.

 

[Comrade69]

Bodies Everywhere: Footage Of Malaysian Airline MH17 Aftermath! (*Warning* Graphic Footage) - World Star Uncut

 

[OPSSG]

Anthony H. Cordesman of CSIS has a detailed article, dated 18July 2014, titled, "The Downing of the Malaysian Airliner: Avoid Rushing to Judgment". Select quotes from his article to provide context for members are set-out below (but I really recommend that members take the time to read the whole article):-

"...The circumstances surrounding the actual firing are still uncertain, but several factors are important. Ukraine did not issue a warning notice about risk to civilian airliners after the AN-26 was shot down. Even Aeroflot did not change its flight guidance until after the airline was shot down...

Radar does not show the size or any other aspect of a plane, it only reports speed, height, and vector over time. All blips are the same size. There are also reaction time problems inherent in the radar data. A plane flying at commercial cruise speeds does not have a long target window for a missile with a maximum range of 12-27 miles in human reaction and command and control authorization terms even though the missile can reach peak speed of Mach 2.5.

In theory, the operators of the firing unit should have had warning that the plane had a civilian transponder, and the radar unit, command unit, and launch vehicle should all have detected this. But, if the rebels fired the missile, it is unclear that the rebels had a full set of such vehicles. They may only have had launch vehicles. This would put far more of a load on the single launch vehicle’s 3-4 man crew.

Moreover, part of the system may have been down and failed to properly display the transponder data...

Regardless of who fired the missile, human error is all too possible. Surface-to-air missile crews may have been pumped up to overreact. They may have been tired, gotten conflicting orders and vague rules of engagement data, or simply have been too new to handle the work burden....

In short, the fact this is a horrible human tragedy should not lead to rushed judgment as to motive, guilt, or intent. Far too little data is available, and many of the facts we do know indicate that the environment may well have led to mistakes."​

In the aftermath of this tragic event, the crowd at wiki are writing an article on the event, including a Russian language version. However, it is interesting to note that there are some pretty drastic edits to a Wikipedia article that mentions Flight MH17, originating from a Russian government IP address (see Gizmodo for details).

Please consider reading the above two articles, as backgrounders, before posting an opinion. Just be aware that these articles exist (regardless of whether you agree or not with the details) and they can help inform the discussion in this thread.

 

[Feanor]

looks like OCSE observers are still being denied acces to the crash site.

Pressimus | Press | Published by Interpreter_Mag


No one has any idea where the black boxes are, and according to several reports, things are being removed from the crash site.

"Michael Bociurkiw, a member of the OSCE team, said their access had been limited despite assurances from the regional rebel commander that they would be allowed into the site.

"A visibly intoxicated armed guard fired his rifle in the air when one of the observers walked out of the prescribed area," Mr Bociurkiw told journalists.

The 25 monitors withdrew after just over an hour, having been been unable to set up an access corridor for specialist teams to investigate the crash, he added."


if they ever get access to investigate the crash, a lot of evidence is going to be either contaminated or just plain gone.

The info must be dated. If you read my update post, you'd see a link to a video and footage of the OSCE observers walking around the crash site, and talking to the rebels at the scene.

Their access may be restricted, or incomplete, and at the end of the day there's not a whole lot they can do at the scene, other then make sure it remains undisturbed. But they are at the crash site, and have been given some sort of access to it.

Here's the link again.

http://u-96.livejournal.com/3614265.html

The first batches of photos are from shelling in Lugansk, the second batch is destroyed Ukrainian positions. If you scroll down towards the bottom of the post you'll see the material in question. Here are separate links.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLdRBaL4-wU"]Ðаблюдатели ОБСЕ на меÑте ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¼Ð°Ð»Ð°Ð¹Ð·Ð¸Ð¹Ñкого «Боинга» - репортаж icorpus.ru - YouTube[/nomedia]
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8eAEBSj9k"]ЛуганÑк 24. Ðа меÑте ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð‘Ð¾Ð¸Ð½Ð³Ð° 777. 17 Ð¸ÑŽÐ»Ñ 2014 г. - YouTube[/nomedia]

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6838/27652091.2e5/0_90c09_b9712d08_XL.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6743/27652091.2e5/0_90c08_45b9bb9b_XL.jpg

Anthony H. Cordesman of CSIS has a detailed article, dated 18July 2014, titled, "The Downing of the Malaysian Airliner: Avoid Rushing to Judgment". Select quotes from his article to provide context for members are set-out below (but I really recommend that members take the time to read the whole article)

Excellent material, thanks for posting.

 

[Feanor]

Update.

Reports out of Lugansk are that Ukrainian claims about taking part of the city are a lie.

ivanoctober:

16 civilians dead and 66 wounded in the last 24 hours in Lugansk.

КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - За Ñутки в ЛуганÑке погибли 16 мирных жителей, 66 ранены

Details on the destruction at Krasnodon. It was a Ukrainian artillery unit. They left behind the following destroyed vehicles and heavy equipment.

4 BMP-2
1 BMD-2
3 D-30 Howitzers
1 MT-LBu (arty battery command vehicle)
1 military truck
1 Civilian dump truck

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Сводки Ñ Ð®Ð³Ð¾-ВоÑтока

Some sources in the Ukrainian border guards service indicate that after Ukrainian artillery landed on the Russian side of the border, Russian artillery returned fire. Russian aerial recon is also reported.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Та ÑÐ°Ð¼Ð°Ñ "ответка"?

A Ukrainian D-30 after premature detonation of the shell, due to bad ammo.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ПоÑтрелÑли

Finland halts a party of weapons components headed for Ukraine.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Íà ôèíñêîé òàìîæíå çàäåðæàëè ïàðòèþ îðóæèÿ äëÿ Óêðàèíû

Lavrov and Kerry agree to use their influence to stop the fighting.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ëàâðîâ è Êåððè äîãîâîðèëèñü "èñïîëüçîâàòü âëèÿíèå" äëÿ ïðåêðàùåíèÿ âîåííîãî êîíôëèêòà íà Óêðàèíå

The SBU arrests the head of the Kiev armored plant, for stealing.

Andrei-bt -

Ukraine seeks to have the DNR and LNR declared terrorist organizations.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Óêðàèíà ãîòîâèò ìåæäóíàðîäíûå èñêè î ïðèçíàíèè ËÍÐ è ÄÍÐ òåððîðèñòè÷åñêèìè îðãàíèçàöèÿìè

 

[Twain]

The info must be dated. If you read my update post, you'd see a link to a video and footage of the OSCE observers walking around the crash site, and talking to the rebels at the scene.

Their access may be restricted, or incomplete, and at the end of the day there's not a whole lot they can do at the scene, other then make sure it remains undisturbed. But they are at the crash site, and have been given some sort of access to it.

Here's the link again.

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ЛуганÑк и не только...

It's from today. The observers were given access to a very limited area when the crash site is kilometers long.


Two-thirds of the OSCE observers work for intelligence of European countries or the US," he claimed, repeating his distrust for all western monitors – a constant rebel refrain throughout the conflict in east Ukraine. Two sets of OSCE monitors have been kidnapped and held hostage at various points over the past few months by rebels.

However, after brief negotiations and a nervy standoff, the observers were allowed in to see the crash site. Together with journalists, they were permitted to walk along the road but were warned – by dozens of armed people who were tracking them from the nearby fields –not to leave the tarmac.

MH17: armed rebels fuel chaos as rotting corpses pile up on the roadside | World news | The Observer

Basically, the OSCE are only allowed 30m further than they were yesterday. Grumpy won't let them onto the field where debris and bodies are.

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490445628301127680

 

[STURM]

The Malaysian Prime Minister has announced that the Malaysian team has arrived in Kiev, that the separatists have agreed to ''create a safe passage for the recovery and investigation team'' and that the Transport and Foreign Ministers will be heading to Kiev to help out with liaising and logistics. He also said that the government ''will do its utmost to provide closure to the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crew and passenger grieving families and it will also do its level best to bring back the victims of the tragedy''. When meeting the next-of-kin, we understand their individual perspectives as a family unit. It was a very emotional session and I urge the public to uphold in prayers all those affected by this unspeakable tragedy".

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...itable-in-the-chaos-of-proxy-war-9615823.html

Did anyone notice the Ukranian miners who volunteered to search for bodies? IMO it was a noble thing they did.

In addition to a forensic team, pathologists, dental experts and Department of Civil Aviation officials; the Malaysian team also includes people from the Royal Malaysian Air Force's [RMAF] Paskau unit and the army's Royal Medical Corps.

 

[gf0012-aust]

pulled from another contact:

The BUK system is not a high tech weapons system as it was a variant of a system developed in the late 1960's. It is a radar terminally homing system which is guided to a point in space until its own radar can pick up the target. It isn't Semi-active and is totally autonomous on its terminal phase.

The command vehicle is fitted with first generation digital technology and is not a colour capable display console. The screen is a phosphor green screen and uses symbology modifyers to display a track dependant on classification, mode and threat level. They are IFF capable and you can see the feeder horn for the IFF receiver below the main radar array. The transponder is usually located on the launcher as it has a 360 degree coverage. The radar itself is a three dimensional unit and is capable of range and height plus multiple "stacked" aircraft identification. What might seem to be one contact, is more than likely a formation of three at staggered heights in very close proximity. The RHI, or range height indicator, is usually above the main display.

I know a great deal about these systems as the Russians had them on their large Kirov battle cruisers and are a lethal system, albeit a very old system. These are also able to be used as a terminal homing ship killer as they have a ridiculous velocity and are lethal just in their kinetic energy alone.

The flaw with these missiles is that their terminal homing radar is very rudimentary when you compare it with something such as a harpoon missile or a SM3 radar missile the yanks use. The radar range gate of the BUK has an azimuth of nearly fifty degrees...huge compared with an azimuth of the harpoon at 30 degrees and the SM3 at 15 degrees. When it is set to terminal homing, the BUK is sweeping a huge arsed bit of the sky and the system will look from left to right, closest to most distant, and within a 50 degree arc. Anything that comes within this range gate is a fair target and fifty degrees is a huge piece of sky.

I don't condone what has happened, nor trying to sound like a smart arse, but maybe the pro Russian Ukrainians were targeting something else, which was possible seeing as there were possibly more aircraft in the area at the time, and the missile has followed its logic and targeted the Malaysian aircraft instead of the one they were actually targeting. Such a tragedy though and is being felt everywhere. The queensland doctors were from my home town of toowoomba and the town is in a bit of shock here. I just hope the Russians do the right thing and allow the experts in to sort this out quickly and get to the bottom of it. I noticed in the images that are being splashed all over the media that there seems to be a lot of debris peppered with holes, giving the evidence that the BUK had the expanding rod warhead in it where it will shower the target with tiny 1 cm cubes of tungsten, thousands of them, which will more than likely not cause an explosion, but disable the myriad of controls in an aircraft, not to mention what these supersonic projectiles do to flesh and blood.

 

[dprijadi]

Personally i think this is either

a) intentional (read : Criminal) action by Kiev Junta shooting down the plane and attributing it to the russians/rebels , thus winning the propaganda war.

or

b) another vincennes type disaster in that it is a mistaken identity shooting by Ukrainian Air Defense that was jittery with the recent rumored soviet strike aircraft active in ukraine airspace

I dont think the rebel have the necessary integrated Air Defense system established beyond their MANPADS and AAA , and even with the current air defense system they are incapable of stopping the routine High Altitude supply drops from the besieged goverment forces in luganks airport.

One thing that seem suspicious is the speed which the whole US goverment and media instantly blaming the russians and rebels , followed by comments from Australian PM who also blamed russians , this before any form of evidence / fact gathered from the ground. And if i was a jaded person, i would think the recent israeli armour moving into gaza not getting front page report in the media because of this disaster.. i dont know but these 'coincidences' are a bit too much for me personally

Again i am thinking who will gain the most in this disaster ? certainly not the rebels and the russians.. most certainly the Kiev goverment and their US backers..


https://niqnaq.wordpress.com/

Moscow: No Buk missile systems or other weapons crossed Russia-Ukraine border
Jul 18 2014

The Russian Defense Ministry has said that neither the Buk missile defense system, nor any other military equipment, has crossed the Russian border into Ukraine. Such border crossings “can’t be performed in secrecy,” the official representative for the Russian Defense Ministry told journalists in Moscow.

Earlier, the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) alleged that it has proof the self-defense forces in eastern Ukraine received a Buk anti-aircraft missile system with a crew from Russia. Malaysian flight MH17 “was shot down by a missile from the Buk-M air defense system, which was transferred from the territory of Russia,” said Valentin Nalivaychenko, SBU head, without elaborating on the evidence.

Shortly after the Thursday’s tragedy, Poroshenko addressed the nation, saying that what happened to the Malaysian MH17 flight was “a terrorist act.” The statement came before Kiev launched an investigation into the crash to determine what exactly happened to the Malaysian jet.

The Russian Defense Ministry spokesman also denied statements by the Ukrainian side, which announced the detention of two “spotters for Buk anti-aircraft missile systems” on its territory, who were Russian citizens. “We should clarify that such specialists as spotters are used only for those weapons systems, which are aimed at engaging ground-based targets,” he said.

Buk is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an engagement altitude of 11 km to 25 km depending on the model. Previously, the Russian Defense Ministry said that a Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational in the area in the Donetsk Region where the Malaysian plane crashed. The ministry said in a statement:

The Russian equipment detected throughout Jul 17 the activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk).

According to the Russian side, the Ukrainian military has deployed several Buk batteries, with at least 27 launchers, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, in the Donetsk Region.

Didnt the same Ukrainian Air defense shoot down a Siberian Airlines a few years ago in a training accident mistake ?

 

[gf0012-aust]

https://niqnaq.wordpress.com/

what bullshit - too bad that independent freelancers have imagery of the Buk hitailing it back

the russians should hang their heads in shame

phuque em

 

[Feanor]

It's from today. The observers were given access to a very limited area when the crash site is kilometers long.


Two-thirds of the OSCE observers work for intelligence of European countries or the US," he claimed, repeating his distrust for all western monitors – a constant rebel refrain throughout the conflict in east Ukraine. Two sets of OSCE monitors have been kidnapped and held hostage at various points over the past few months by rebels.

However, after brief negotiations and a nervy standoff, the observers were allowed in to see the crash site. Together with journalists, they were permitted to walk along the road but were warned – by dozens of armed people who were tracking them from the nearby fields –not to leave the tarmac.

MH17: armed rebels fuel chaos as rotting corpses pile up on the roadside | World news | The Observer

Basically, the OSCE are only allowed 30m further than they were yesterday. Grumpy won't let them onto the field where debris and bodies are.

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490445628301127680

Well on the one hand they're probably following orders and "leaving the crash site undisturbed". On the other hand the OSCE aren't professional investigators in that department, and their presence should limit the rebels ability to tamper with anything.

Thanks for the detailed info. If you get more, please do share.

Didnt the same Ukrainian Air defense shoot down a Siberian Airlines a few years ago in a training accident mistake ?

Yep. A Tu-154 hit by an S-200 by accident.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812"]Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

what bullshit - too bad that independent freelancers have imagery of the Buk hitailing it back

the russians should hang their heads in shame

phuque em

The smart thing would have been to admit the mistake, take responsibility, and cooperate fully. It would gain them much more then this non-sense with conspiracy theories, and playing innocent.