Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Gibbo]

I had a look at the Police's new boat Lady Elizabeth IV in Wellington recently, made in New Zealand for $2.3 Million NZD and would also be an excellent choice - it sounds like she is alot more stable out in the weather in Cook Strait than her predecessor. She has a stern launching ramp for a RHIB, cruises at 30 knots and while I can't find specifics on her, info on her sister-ship in Auckland (Deodar III) states:

Lady Elizabeth IV - Work Boats - Teknicraft Design

Yep a mighty fine vessel - something like that would really get the VR going! If 4-5 were required it might be a tad expensive @ $2.3M each for the RNZN to consider spending but there are smaller options that would come in cheaper - the Q-West website shows other really good designs too.

Hell why not even give the each VR unit a couple of decent RHIBs (around 10M size) - they'd still have a lot of fun with them and be getting sea-time.

 

[Lucasnz]

Hell why not even give the each VR unit a couple of decent RHIBs (around 10M size) - they'd still have a lot of fun with them and be getting sea-time.

It was suggested, but apparently didn't go down well with the brass. Unless the VR can direct recruit again, then a single vessel is about all they could manage

 

[Gibbo]

It was suggested, but apparently didn't go down well with the brass. Unless the VR can direct recruit again, then a single vessel is about all they could manage

Uh-oh, so brass not so supportive!

 

[ngatimozart]

It was suggested, but apparently didn't go down well with the brass. Unless the VR can direct recruit again, then a single vessel is about all they could manage

When did the VR lose the ability to direct recruit? I'm ex RNZNVR and I am appalled at how they have been degraded. When I was in they had good sea going skills provided a a good service - well our Division did anyway - and we had people going to sea with the regular quite a bit. We had a good spread of Officers and Senior Rates who were ex regular so that provided a really good corporate knowledge base for the Division. There was and still is a regular service snobbery and / or prejudice against the VR. It's denied but it is noticeably present. Yes the Police boats would be a good choice too. Provide a removable .50 cal mount and a MAG58 mount to give the crew some gunnery practice at sea or back up in case somebody wants to play silly buggers.

 

[RegR]

I had a look at the Police's new boat Lady Elizabeth IV in Wellington recently, made in New Zealand for $2.3 Million NZD and would also be an excellent choice - it sounds like she is alot more stable out in the weather in Cook Strait than her predecessor. She has a stern launching ramp for a RHIB, cruises at 30 knots and while I can't find specifics on her, info on her sister-ship in Auckland (Deodar III) states:



Lady Elizabeth IV - Work Boats - Teknicraft Design

These are what first came to mind as well, locally built and suited to our conditions. I read somewhere they where supposed to build a fleet of these for police and customs but so far have only seen the police ones built and Wellingtons one is a bit more 'ruggedised' for the straight conditions.

If Navy rockies went with these 3 would be needed as originally they ran 4 IPCs in 4 locations however Auckland based pers could just continue to supplement the DNB based IPVs. As Gibbo pointed out there are other options if cost is a factor and no doubt there would be naval specific requirements however still a good baseline. If the southern bases had actual vessels I'm sure they could promote and sort recruiting better as well.

 

[ngatimozart]

These are what first came to mind as well, locally built and suited to our conditions. I read somewhere they where supposed to build a fleet of these for police and customs but so far have only seen the police ones built and Wellingtons one is a bit more 'ruggedised' for the straight conditions.

If Navy rockies went with these 3 would be needed as originally they ran 4 IPCs in 4 locations however Auckland based pers could just continue to supplement the DNB based IPVs. As Gibbo pointed out there are other options if cost is a factor and no doubt there would be naval specific requirements however still a good baseline. If the southern bases had actual vessels I'm sure they could promote and sort recruiting better as well.

I think Ngaponga needs a boat as well. Us Rockies have a slightly different culture and you need to build the team within the Division. Each year there was a Fleet Training Program held in the Marlborough Sounds where all four Divisions had to send their ships with their own crew. The FTP went for 14 days and was run and supervised by the regulars. It was hard yakka and there was a lot of competition between the divisions. At the end of the FTP one division would be top division and would be Cock of the Fleet. It was an honour highly sought and if not won lots of disappointed crews. It was difficult to win. I would also suggest giving a boat to the Tauranga sub division. They could probably support a sea going division now if direct recruiting was allowed.

 

[RegR]

I think Ngaponga needs a boat as well. Us Rockies have a slightly different culture and you need to build the team within the Division. Each year there was a Fleet Training Program held in the Marlborough Sounds where all four Divisions had to send their ships with their own crew. The FTP went for 14 days and was run and supervised by the regulars. It was hard yakka and there was a lot of competition between the divisions. At the end of the FTP one division would be top division and would be Cock of the Fleet. It was an honour highly sought and if not won lots of disappointed crews. It was difficult to win. I would also suggest giving a boat to the Tauranga sub division. They could probably support a sea going division now if direct recruiting was allowed.

Oh agreed Ngati was purely a cost based suggestion ie minimum hulls (thinking like a pollie here) and due to the IPVs already in AK just assume they would not purchase another vessel above and beyond. Maybe one of the IPVs could be dedicated to rockies and be the bridge between reserve IPCs (for want of a better term) and regular IPVs. Understood regulars and reserve do have their own slightly different culture as much as they would hate to admit or believe.

Always wondered why their presence was not larger in Tauranga being one of NZs major ports and also a very nautically themed location. The retirees alone could crew their own vessel fulltime.

 

[Lucasnz]

When did the VR lose the ability to direct recruit? I'm ex RNZNVR and I am appalled at how they have been degraded. When I was in they had good sea going skills provided a a good service - well our Division did anyway - and we had people going to sea with the regular quite a bit.

When defence recruiting became tri-service and centralised individual units were no longer able to recruit directly off the street. I think that was around the time I left in 2006. 90% of Dunedin are ex regular.

I'd agree about the culture within the VR been very different to the regulars or even within units.

I think if the boats were to be assigned to the VR very clear roles would be needed in order to justify the cost. Harbour Security is one role (think a new HDML), localised MCM with additional REMUS etc. The days of having a boat for just "training" when the IPC were acquired are over. Critically that still leaves integration with the regulars as an issue, though ex regular are now allowed to stay in branch (Chef, MT(P) etc).

 

[Cadredave]

When did the VR lose the ability to direct recruit? I'm ex RNZNVR and I am appalled at how they have been degraded. When I was in they had good sea going skills provided a a good service - well our Division did anyway - and we had people going to sea with the regular quite a bit. We had a good spread of Officers and Senior Rates who were ex regular so that provided a really good corporate knowledge base for the Division. There was and still is a regular service snobbery and / or prejudice against the VR. It's denied but it is noticeably present. Yes the Police boats would be a good choice too. Provide a removable .50 cal mount and a MAG58 mount to give the crew some gunnery practice at sea or back up in case somebody wants to play silly buggers.

Recruiting is now controlled centrally from Wellington for all three services, all potential recruits must now apply online first it don't matter if your applying for regular or reserves.

That's nothing new even in Army there still is a small element who treat our reserves as second class citizens even after all the hard work in Timor, Solomon's etc as a Ex Cadre NCO I use to call it professional snobbery.

CD

 

[Zero Alpha]

I had a look at the Police's new boat Lady Elizabeth IV in Wellington recently, made in New Zealand for $2.3 Million NZD and would also be an excellent choice - it sounds like she is alot more stable out in the weather in Cook Strait than her predecessor. She has a stern launching ramp for a RHIB, cruises at 30 knots and while I can't find specifics on her, info on her sister-ship in Auckland (Deodar III) states:



Lady Elizabeth IV - Work Boats - Teknicraft Design

This is probably a better option, with a bit more flexibility. The speed and endurance profile is a better fit. Guru

 

[Zero Alpha]

Moving on from reserves

I think if the boats were to be assigned to the VR very clear roles would be needed in order to justify the cost. Harbour Security is one role (think a new HDML), localised MCM with additional REMUS etc. The days of having a boat for just "training" when the IPC were acquired are over. Critically that still leaves integration with the regulars as an issue, though ex regular are now allowed to stay in branch (Chef, MT(P) etc).

Rather than trying to find a roe for them, I think it would be more useful to start with knowing what problem you're trying to fix.

Personally I think the idea of a 'reserve' has had it's day.

All three services need to do a better job of using part time staff to augment the full timers. I don't see any fundamental barrier to using part timers to reduce the demands on the full time workforce. In the EEZ patrol context an augmentation crew of half a dozen personnel could join an IPV for 3-4 days and swap out at the next port. The details don't matter too much.

I suspect there are plenty of people (especially self employed) who would be happy to sign up for say 10 days a month.

 

[Lucasnz]

Rather than trying to find a roe for them, I think it would be more useful to start with knowing what problem you're trying to fix.

Personally I think the idea of a 'reserve' has had it's day.

All three services need to do a better job of using part time staff to augment the full timers. I don't see any fundamental barrier to using part timers to reduce the demands on the full time workforce. In the EEZ patrol context an augmentation crew of half a dozen personnel could join an 's (IPV for 3-4 days and swap out at the next port. The details don't matter too much.

I suspect there are plenty of people (especially self employed) who would be happy to sign up for say 10 days a month.

For the VR the key problem is the lack of support and the general lack of direction they currently have. In the context of the history of the VR, the units were given IPC to train with but no military role. The VR were given the MCM role in the late 1980's (a traditional naval reserve role), but with the change in technology that role can now be performed by mobile teams.

I don't think reserves have had their day, especially when you look overseas. Personally I think they bring a unique skill set and a different way of thinking to the NZDF. For example the stability problem on the IPC were found by a reserve officer who held a merchant navy masters ticket. The regular seaman officers didn't learn stability to the same extent back then.

While off the street reservists can supplement on the IPV and OPV in general roles (Seaman) the technology and qualifications needed to work in some areas means that few staff would obtain the sea time and experience necessary to qualify for promotion. That was one of the reasons the VR stopped recruiting people to be Radar Plotters, Sonarman the 1970's and stores in the 1990's. The tech trades are another issue as most of the tech people I knew in the reserves, with a few exceptions were ex regular. The reserves are still relevant but what they do going forward - that's the question.

Most self-employed people wouldn't be interested in 10 days at sea because of the lost business opportunities. You could however get some unemployed going that way if they were prepared to commit to the training. I think the Canadians were operating something like that a few years back, and its not a bad idea.

 

[ASSAIL]

This is probably a better option, with a bit more flexibility. The speed and endurance profile is a better fit. Guru

Don't want to be in that in Cook Str. Cats have enormous probs in heavy seas, the tunnels in small ones are far too close to the water. That combined with a fwd wheelhouse and their legendary stiffness would make for crew tolerance of about 1 hour in heavy weather.

Your referred version is mainly working from harbours along Aust. NW coast where the sea conditions are far more suitable.

 

[Zero Alpha]

While off the street reservists can supplement on the IPV and OPV in general roles (Seaman) the technology and qualifications needed to work in some areas means that few staff would obtain the sea time and experience necessary to qualify for promotion. [snip]

Most self-employed people wouldn't be interested in 10 days at sea because of the lost business opportunities. You could however get some unemployed going that way if they were prepared to commit to the training. I think the Canadians were operating something like that a few years back, and its not a bad idea.

I think you're assuming people don't have similar skill sets in their other roles.

I know plenty of self employed who'd love to have a stable base of 10 days pay a month and would be happy to fit their other work around that. Forget the unemployed - it's skilled workers the services are short of, not people who have few qualifications or aren't employable.

 

[aussienscale]

Just wondering if anyone has any info on what type of communications systems Canterbury has fitted ? also does Canterbury have a dedicated ops room that anyone is aware of ?

Just curious, and researching possible make up of joint Amphib forces

Cheers

 

[RegR]

Agreed reserves do bring extra skillsets to the table, not being fully immersed in the military is actually one of them and of course their individual civi trade/quals. Their days are not numbered as they supplement during peak times and provide a service that govt would otherwise have to fully maintain at cost even in the quieter periods (of which there are many).

There has always been somewhat of a rivalry between regulars and reserves, sometimes positive sometimes negative, but at the end of the day they do provide a service, something sometimes forgotten by regulars until seen first hand. I guess it is also harder for Navy as their main base is at the end of the country therefore their reserve units are the furtherest away of any of the services which in turn makes interaction, C and C, support and influence that much harder and without these obviously interest, recruitment and morale will take a hit.

 

[MrConservative]

Just wondering if anyone has any info on what type of communications systems Canterbury has fitted ? also does Canterbury have a dedicated ops room that anyone is aware of ?

Just curious, and researching possible make up of joint Amphib forces

Cheers

You should PM Mattyem as he has served on CY.

 

[Zero Alpha]

There has always been somewhat of a rivalry between regulars and reserves, sometimes positive sometimes negative, but at the end of the day they do provide a service, something sometimes forgotten by regulars until seen first hand.

That's one of the reasons I say 'reserves' have had their day. The 'reserves' are almost entirely for individual augmentation - it's inconceivable that a reserve unit or sub-unit would be activated for a 'regular' tasks. The reserves are really a structure to hold and maintain skills for individual personnel augmentation. With that premise, a full-time, part-time system would seem much more sensible and help to break down some of the us-versus-them culture that exists.

 

[Todjaeger]

That's one of the reasons I say 'reserves' have had their day. The 'reserves' are almost entirely for individual augmentation - it's inconceivable that a reserve unit or sub-unit would be activated for a 'regular' tasks. The reserves are really a structure to hold and maintain skills for individual personnel augmentation. With that premise, a full-time, part-time system would seem much more sensible and help to break down some of the us-versus-them culture that exists.

Properly setup, kitted, trained, and tasked, an reserve units can indeed provide invaluable service. The real question is whether or not Gov't, the NZDF and RNZN are creative and forward thinking enough, to make the commitments necessary to make it work.

As the study which led to Project Protector determined, RNZN patrol asset numbers had fallen to below where NZ could realistically claim to control the EEZ. The Protector "fleet" was the solution the Gov't of the day decided on as the one most acceptable to them to provide an increased patrol capability for the EEZ and other constabulary and lift duties.

Based off what was requested, what was selected, and the amount of funding involved, I am inclined to think the Gov't of the day was loathe to spend money purchasing new kit for defence. Then opted for designs which would have less flexibility to provide capabilities outside of their requested roles, short of a significant dockyard overhaul and modification.

Where this can get 'interesting' is that even with the addition of some of the Protector vessels, the patrol capability is still insufficient, especially given the concentrated nature of RNZN basing and vast area requiring patrol. If some of the more far removed coastal areas of NZ (Dunedin and Invercargill come to mind) away from the naval bases can stand up a unit to perform some of the inshore patrolling, as well as opportunities for personnel get/sustain smallcraft handling, then it would be in the RNZN's interest to form and sustain a RNZNVR unit in that area. Expecting on utilizing reserve personnel to fill out a vessel's crew IMO is not a viable or useful expectation apart from in wartime. If someone is in the Reserves, that is because they do not wish to be in the navy all the time. So a vessel deployment away from NZ proper for more than a couple of weeks is going to be something that personnel are not usually going to want.. Short patrols of anywhere from a few hours to a few days would IMO be something that properly trained Reserve units could do.

What I am not so sure about is just what would be considered a proper sized vessel for them to do so.

-Cheers

-Cheers

 

[kiwi in exile]

re 3rd opv

Apparently the RAN is getting a new OPV for aviation training (???)
RAN acquires Damen vessel for aviation training - IHS Jane's 360
Looks loke the kind of boat that we would want for a 3rd OPV if it happens.
www.damen.com/~/media/nl/Documents/Products/Datasheets/OT/OPV/2400/555700OPV 2400DS.ashx