Ask the RNZN on their Facebook page. I'm using my phone & can't post the link, but go onto Facebook and use the search term: Royal New Zealand Navy. They should be able to help you.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
D'Oh! I meant to remove the comment about the Typhoons. When I checked the fitout, the RAN and RNZN FFH's are both fitted with mini-Typhoons. I removed the reference to the RAN but not the RNZN.
By my rough calculation though, the ANZAC-class FFH would need ~10,000kg of available topweight to mount another Mk-41 VLS with quadpacked Sea Ceptor missiles for the RNZN.
Zero Alpha
New Member
The weight of the replacement diesel engines will impact on that. Not sure if it's positively or negatively though.
kiwi in exile
Active Member
While it's great to see us gaining more capability, I'm not a huge fan of helo mounted penguins as our sole ASuW weapon. I imagine we got these because the 'new' sprites came equipped for these- IE an opportunistic purchase rather than a carefully thought out plan for NZDF ASuW into the future. While it may have been a bargan, I'd like to see more of a future plan for the NZDF in this area.
Quoted range of the Penguin in the linked Janes article is 34km. My guess is 34kms is too little stand off for attacking a reasonable sized SAM equipped naval vessel. And as it stands at the moment, and for the forseeable future, this is our best option.
Well if you're going Euro with Sea Ceptor maybe NSM would be an option? Seems like a pretty modern and capable missile and will probably end up cheaper than something like LRASM (I suspect an NZ government would take quite a bit of convincing on that part). You might even be able to hang it off a helo (though probably only one, and probably not Sea Sprite). P3s maybe? Made by the same mob who do the Penguin so who knows, maybe you could get some kind of procurement/sustainment deal or something. Gotta watch that top weight, though...
Anyway that's just me being an NSM fanboy. I'll show myself out...
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
The Seasprite might very well be able to carry a NSM. The Seasprite has two hardpoints, and a useful load capacity ~2,000 kg, each NSM is slightly heavier than a Penguin (410 kg for NSM vs. 385 kg for Penguin Mk II).Well if you're going Euro with Sea Ceptor maybe NSM would be an option? Seems like a pretty modern and capable missile and will probably end up cheaper than something like LRASM (I suspect an NZ government would take quite a bit of convincing on that part). You might even be able to hang it off a helo (though probably only one, and probably not Sea Sprite). P3s maybe? Made by the same mob who do the Penguin so who knows, maybe you could get some kind of procurement/sustainment deal or something. Gotta watch that top weight, though...
Anyway that's just me being an NSM fanboy. I'll show myself out...
I would posit that the greatest obstacles to acquiring the NSM would be Gov't feeling that a standoff AShM is too aggressive, and the potential costs to integrate NSM onto the SH-2G(I) Seasprite, P-3K2 Orion, and/or ANZAC-class FFH platforms.
-Cheers
Zero Alpha
New Member
Perhaps, but 'fighting fair' isn't something that anyone plans to do. The most realistic target is likely to be fast attack craft or corvette-size. It's unlikely that tasking a single FFH to engage with its helicopter would be part of the plan. If it's a target of opportunity, lobbing a few missiles down bearing may be enough to give the target reason to pause and show caution. If the target has 'reasonable' anti-air systems then an attack using multiple platforms and directions would be a more likely proposition.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
NZ Defence Ministry website has been updated to cover the next phase of the frigate upgrade. Some more contracts due to be inked over the next two months, as per final para.
ANZAC Ships Upgrade FSU) [Ministry of Defence NZ]
ANZAC Ships Upgrade FSU) [Ministry of Defence NZ]
I didn't realise NSM was so close to Penguin in terms of size, given its greater capabilities - thanks for the info. It does seem like it could be a good choice for navies looking to replace older Harpoon or Exocet stocks. You're right about government obstacles though. Just seems like a good modern option for those not holding out/not interested in missiles like LRASM, which has more work to be done and will likely be more expensive given its advanced capabilities regarding autonomy etc.
I don't understand why a government would consider keeping a level of pace with other regional navies as being overly aggressive, but then that's a conversation we've all had before. Just wish my neighbours across the pond could get the gear they deserve!
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
A few realities need to be brought up. The first is that the Penguin AShM was not really designed to engage FIAC, and is really overkill for that, since they were designed to engage patrol boats, landing craft, and corvette-sized vessels.
By way of illustration, the US has developed versions of the Hellfire missile (AGM-114M & N) for use against smallcraft. Those missiles weigh ~48kg in total, while a Penguin Mk II just warhead only, is ~120kg. The British Sea Skua AShM which has a total weight of 145kg and a warhead weight of ~30kg, has been used to achieve mission kills on an 800 ton patrol/tug boat during the Falklands, as well as Polnocny-class LCT, and TNC-45 class patrol boats during the Gulf War I.
The size of the Penguin warhead really means that it if for use against ships. The other thing is that the 5" gun aboard the RNZN frigates really is not suitable for use in an ASuW role against other naval vessels larger than patrol boats, because those vessels are almost certainly going to be able to launch AShM against the Kiwi frigates long before the Kiwi vessels could close to within gun range. At the same time, most reasonably well armed vessels will have some form of air defence capability and as long at the range capability is greater than VSRAAD/point defence, then the launching platform can be engaged before reaching effective launch range. And at best the helicopter might be able to carry two, and an Orion might manage 4 (I think limited by the # of hardpoints on the wings).
Unfortunately given the limited numbers of platforms available to the NZDF, it is very unlikely (try virtually impossible) that the NZDF could carry out a coordinated attack against hostile naval shipping from multiple approach vectors, without outside assistance. The NZDF just does not have the numbers available to have enough platforms in such an attack, and there are too few systems on the platforms able to launch such an attack.
I do really hope that in time the NZDF does have the NSM, or another missile of similar capabilities enter service. The lack of a standoff ASuW munition can force Kiwi forces to enter into engagement range of a potential hostile, before their weapos are within range, which allows hostiles to set many of the engagement parameters.
kiwi in exile
Active Member
I'm a fan too.Well if you're going Euro with Sea Ceptor maybe NSM would be an option? Seems like a pretty modern and capable missile and will probably end up cheaper than something like LRASM (I suspect an NZ government would take quite a bit of convincing on that part). You might even be able to hang it off a helo (though probably only one, and probably not Sea Sprite). P3s maybe? Made by the same mob who do the Penguin so who knows, maybe you could get some kind of procurement/sustainment deal or something. Gotta watch that top weight, though...
Anyway that's just me being an NSM fanboy. I'll show myself out...
Konigsberg is trying to get the Aussies and the US interested in a version that can fit in the weapons bays on the JSF - called Joint Strike Missile. This will have extended range and possibly be even smaller. If this goes ahead, mybe the price will drop, and it will be inservice with our allies. Both pluses from a procurement POV. In my mind we need anti ship missiles across 3 platforms: seasprites, frigates and MPA's.
I was thinking along the same lines as Tod. From a weight perpsective, it's not too much heavier than a pengiun. But you get a whole lot more capability. It has real stand off range, and is stealthy (apparently), so you wont see it comming until its too late. Therefore it has real deterrent value. Our naval combat forces lack this at present. Relying on a 5 inch gun in the 21st century? Out patrol aircraft also lack deterrent value. In my eyes this is the biggest gap in NZDFs capability. However, sadly i'm pretty sceptical about the chances of NZG doing anything about this. I imagine we will have to make do with the Penguin just as we did with the maverick. The Penguin and maverick are completely different missiles but we are in more or less the same position- nothing has changed. Arguably hellfires would actually be more tactically useful to NZDF- CAS, fast boats, etc.
Even when we had the skyhawks and the mavericks as our detterrent- i didn't like the idea of having to fly a skyhawk within maverick range of a potentially aggressive frigate, etc.
Regarding a previous discussion about weapons on the P3's wing hardpoints- could something like a NSM/JSM fit inside/launch from the bomb bay?
Gracie1234
Well-Known Member
Does anyone know if the LWSV will have defensive capabilities such as decoys, jammers, weapons? I am not talking Frigate level of armament. In my view it should have some level of self-defense besides just .50 cal guns. I would like to see soft-kill systems and a Phalanx CIWS.
It occurred to me that this vessel could easily be deployed to an area which might meet some resistance.
Actually, is there any update on this project or does anyone know a date when we will find out.
It occurred to me that this vessel could easily be deployed to an area which might meet some resistance.
Actually, is there any update on this project or does anyone know a date when we will find out.
Rheinhardt
New Member
To be fair if they are going into a shipyard to be retrofitted then they should have the second mk41 VLS installed in addition to a RIM116 and some type of anti-submarine system (i.e. SLAT/CONTRALTO®-V etc..). However I am not even sure they have towed sonar arrays or ASMs, and using the rule of 1/3rd we are left with 2/3rds of a frigate on active service at any time.
At this point I am not sure what purpose maintaining a military serves, and at such great expense, if we are not going to have any serious combat capabilities. Our airforce is in a similar position, i.e. orions unarmed, no more Fighter-planes and our army is poorly armed as well. This is despite spending around 2Bn USD+ I believe on average over recent years.
That isn't too say NZ can't afford a decent military, we can and if military expenditure was pegged at somewhere between 2-4% of GDP we would have aproximately 3-6Billion USD to provide for the national security. And being an island nation, if we focussed primarily on the navy, and airforce (maritime reconnaisance, possibly some fighter support) and ignored the army that could ammount to quiet a substantial naval force!
Especially if we take advantage of our good international relations and lack of domestic armaments industry which allow us to buy the best and most competitive international systems! :jump
At this point I am not sure what purpose maintaining a military serves, and at such great expense, if we are not going to have any serious combat capabilities. Our airforce is in a similar position, i.e. orions unarmed, no more Fighter-planes and our army is poorly armed as well. This is despite spending around 2Bn USD+ I believe on average over recent years.
That isn't too say NZ can't afford a decent military, we can and if military expenditure was pegged at somewhere between 2-4% of GDP we would have aproximately 3-6Billion USD to provide for the national security. And being an island nation, if we focussed primarily on the navy, and airforce (maritime reconnaisance, possibly some fighter support) and ignored the army that could ammount to quiet a substantial naval force!
Especially if we take advantage of our good international relations and lack of domestic armaments industry which allow us to buy the best and most competitive international systems! :jump
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
As mentioned in the RAN thread, as well as within the last couple of pages of this thread, there is an issue with topweight aboard the ANZAC-class FFH. Even with the upcoming Sea Ceptor missile being only slightly more than 1/3rd the weight of an ESSM, and the lack of any AShM launcher aboard the Kiwi FFH's, there is the very real question on whether the RNZN frigates have enough of a topweight margin to make it worth fitting a 2nd Mk-41 VLS. Based off figures I had computed earlier, I suspect the answer is "no".
Also regarding the NZDF budget, I know some are tired of hearing me bang on about it but... Take a look at page #165 of the NZDF Annual Report 30 June 2013. Of the NZ$2,217,716,000 in Total Output Expenditure for the Defence buget, NZD$788,437,000 was for Depreciation and Amortisation, and the Capital Charge. In other words, of the officially stated NZD$2.2 bil. annual defence budget, just under NZD$800 mil. or about a third of the budget, was for accounting purposes and not spent on equipment, operations, or personnel. This means the 'real' NZ defence budget was ~NZ$1.4 bil. which works out to being ~0.77% of GDP
I would be delighted if the NZDF could just get to even 1% GDP in real funding, that extra $400 mil. could do some real good, especially year after year.
-Cheers
Rheinhardt
New Member
Thanks for the reply, I haven't seen these figures of yours, but our frigates do not have that heavy mast the Australian ones have, and I don't think we have the harpoon launchers anyway, given that the RIM-116 is similar in weight to the Phallanx, and given that those additions to the australian systems undoubtably weight more than an additional VLS system, as well as (in the case of the mast) being much higher, I don't see how this would be a problem, at least not as much as the australian modifications.
And I would use the extra VLS capacity for some future advanced ASM, like the NSM, Perseus, LRASM, then maybe our navy would not be considered such a big joke. Now consider this, how much of that actually makes its way to the core functions of the navy, and to the airforce for naval reconnaissance, and what could be done with say 3.6BN NZD (2% GDP), almost 3BN USD just for the navy, naval reconnaissance, and perhaps even a meagre air-force/SAM capability.
I am not, 2% is the nato minimum, the new zealand government is spending 82Bn or 45% of GDP, that would equate to 4.4%-8.8% of current government expenditure if total expenditure remained unchanged. Considering national security is a core government role, up there with law, order, and enforcement, it is not unreasonable at all, and should be a priority, with luxuries like wealth redistribution coming afterwards.
If we arent going to maintain a credible military capability then we may as well save what we currently spend and disband the armed forces entirely.
Zero Alpha
New Member
Don't fight the white.
Depreciation and the cost are capital are a reality for anyone in the corporate sector, and the rest of the state sector. I've yet to hear a convincing argument that Defence should be any different.
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I disagree entirely. Depreciation and cost of capital are accounting concepts used to determine profit or Return on Capital Employed (ROCE). These concepts are truly commercial but funding defence is a national obligation, funded by taxpayers, not a commercial enterprise. The government has an obligation to fund manpower and purchase and sustain capability, not return a profit to the NZ Treasury
Cheers
You need to read back through this thread and you may gain a glimmer of understanding about issues with NZ pollies, NZDF, RNZN, NZDF funding, ANZAC frigate issues etc., etc. Then there is the NZDF thread to read. You should do that before waxing lyrical upon things which you are obviously unfamiliar with. There are a lot of people on here who actually know what they are talking about and they have a wealth of knowledge. I learn something new every day I am on here and I'm a blue tag. Never to old to learn