What gun do you carry?

[Volkodav]

Ironically it was a morning ride on my BMW K1200R that was the final straw that saw me change doctors and find the problem. Something went pop when I put the helmet on and after the ride I really struggled pushing the bike back into the garage. Spewing because the doc has told be I may as well sell the bike because it will be over a year if ever before I can ride it again.

With riding out I am looking to get back into shooting, got to have something fun to do. Then again there's always knitting.

 

[STURM]

Sorry to get off-topic but since the question is gun related, I thought it would be best to post the question here instead of opening a new thread. Would appreciate some opnions.

This concerns a government - with limited resources - that intends to revamp its police force. The police force is mostly armed with Makarovs but also has the odd .38 and .45. There is a requirement to equip the police force with several hundred pistols but no actual requirements have issued with regards to the type of gun needed. Given that the Makarov is already operated [both by the police and non-state actors in the country], is easily available and is probably cheaper compared to Western makes [Glock, Walther, Sig, etc] would it not make sense to get Makarovs for the police instead of introducing into service a totally new gun? What advantage would be had if the police were given, say, Glocks or Sigs?

 

[Air Force Brat]

Sorry to get off-topic but since the question is gun related, I thought it would be best to post the question here instead of opening a new thread. Would appreciate some opnions.

This concerns a government - with limited resources - that intends to revamp its police force. The police force is mostly armed with Makarovs but also has the odd .38 and .45. There is a requirement to equip the police force with several hundred pistols but no actual requirements have issued with regards to the type of gun needed. Given that the Makarov is already operated [both by the police and non-state actors in the country], is easily available and is probably cheaper compared to Western makes [Glock, Walther, Sig, etc] would it not make sense to get Makarovs for the police instead of introducing into service a totally new gun? What advantage would be had if the police were given, say, Glocks or Sigs?

Since the Makarov is chambered in a .380 ish caliber, it would be considered light for law enforcement here in the states, so I would suggest that moving to the 9mm would probably be the biggest advantage. Law enforcement has basically been a 38 caliber affair here, with the latest trend a move to the .40 S&W for a little more punch. Past experiments with the .41 Mag and 10MM have proven to be to much for most police depts., and so the .40 seems to have stuck where they want more "bang", and the 9MM is still our mil-spec.

Having said all that, there is a great deal to commend the Makarov, particularly if we are talking about an "urban" environment. Out on our wide-open spaces the .45 ACP remains popular in depts. that allow it, and that may be the real impetus for the .40 S&W.......

 

[Air Force Brat]

Ironically it was a morning ride on my BMW K1200R that was the final straw that saw me change doctors and find the problem. Something went pop when I put the helmet on and after the ride I really struggled pushing the bike back into the garage. Spewing because the doc has told be I may as well sell the bike because it will be over a year if ever before I can ride it again.

With riding out I am looking to get back into shooting, got to have something fun to do. Then again there's always knitting.

That is disgusting, "dang helmets", my helmet does seem to be at least an irritation to my neck issues, part of the reason being the need to have to pick your head up to see where you are going, causing strain, and the effect of your neck absorbing the bobbing up and down of your old noggin, as the miles rack up. I limit my GSXR-1000 rides to about an hour out, and as you noted the weight of the bike and pushing it in and out has been a plus for the gixxer, but it is currently for sale, as I have a found an older firebird, 1973, on the West Coast that is not a rust bucket....... but when I mentioned that the minister of finance, she "cut off communications" for the better part of two days.

I wish we were closer, as I am sure you could find a few things that would be comfortable for you to shoot in the gun closet. Strangely enough, I haven't been able to by .22 long rifle ammo except at gun show's and that at quite a tariff, so its actually easier to shoot centerfire, although 38 special is also in short supply. Sorry about your bike, those rides are very effective stress relief, and it certainly does help "unwind" a bit. Hope you find a new toy or two, but don't give up, I am trying to drop a few pounds, and riding a nice Cannodale, which although lots of work, does provide a lot of enjoyment for my two wheeled "jones".....

 

[ADMk2]

Sorry to get off-topic but since the question is gun related, I thought it would be best to post the question here instead of opening a new thread. Would appreciate some opnions.

This concerns a government - with limited resources - that intends to revamp its police force. The police force is mostly armed with Makarovs but also has the odd .38 and .45. There is a requirement to equip the police force with several hundred pistols but no actual requirements have issued with regards to the type of gun needed. Given that the Makarov is already operated [both by the police and non-state actors in the country], is easily available and is probably cheaper compared to Western makes [Glock, Walther, Sig, etc] would it not make sense to get Makarovs for the police instead of introducing into service a totally new gun? What advantage would be had if the police were given, say, Glocks or Sigs?

Glocks are heavily favoured by Law Enforcement around the world, particularly agencies which are converting from older weapons (including revolvers) for their reliability, accuracy, relative low cost and ease of use with minimal training / conversion requirements.

Their 'tri-action' patented safeties are highly thought of by risk averse organisations and the lack of an external safety / de-cocking lever is actually considered a plus from an overall safety / training perspective. Matched with an appropriate holster such as the Safariland series with the external lock added gets you high levels of weapon retention safety without the external safety catch needing to be on the weapon itself, an important issue for an organisation.

Glocks have a huge user and support base for a reason. IMHO they are just about perfect for law enforcment and come with the complete range of weapon sizes, accessories and ammunition natures you could ever want, including non- lethal 'simmunition' weapons ( 'Blue guns') for tactical training purposes.

Glock also run outstanding armourer courses for customers that are very highly praised and have an excellent distribution network.

I'd never even bother considering another weapon if it were up to me...

Personally I'd recommend Gen IV 22, 23 and 27 series models chambered in 0.40Cal S&W.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Glock also offer some very attractive commercial deals to Police Departments. Like buying back old guns when it comes time to replace with new (they refurb the old guns and sell them to civilians). Also whatever Glock does S&W and others pretty much mimic.

That being said the Makarov is fine if all you want is a symbol of authority to carry around that is light, cheap and safe. But if you have to use it in a gunfight to save your life and those of the public its about the weakest modern semi auto pistol outside you could have.

 

[Todjaeger]

Sorry to get off-topic but since the question is gun related, I thought it would be best to post the question here instead of opening a new thread. Would appreciate some opnions.

This concerns a government - with limited resources - that intends to revamp its police force. The police force is mostly armed with Makarovs but also has the odd .38 and .45. There is a requirement to equip the police force with several hundred pistols but no actual requirements have issued with regards to the type of gun needed. Given that the Makarov is already operated [both by the police and non-state actors in the country], is easily available and is probably cheaper compared to Western makes [Glock, Walther, Sig, etc] would it not make sense to get Makarovs for the police instead of introducing into service a totally new gun? What advantage would be had if the police were given, say, Glocks or Sigs?

The first question I would really ask, is whether the police would be expected to defend themselves, the public, and/or others with their issued service weapons?

If the answer to that question is, "not really," then keeping the Makarov in service would likely be fine. OTOH if the security environment is such that police do find themselves needing to draw and/or use their service pistols against criminal elements, security threats, etc then changing to a larger round would likely be a good idea. With such a change, then the police service could also introduce a more modern (and safer/capable) pistol into service.

-Cheers

 

[Volkodav]

Something I had never heard of before today is rifle calibre pistols such as the SIG P556. Basically it appears to be a SIG 552 in semi auto, a 10" barrel, 10 round mag and no stock. Seems a bit odd but looking at it I realised that they may actually meet the letter of the law in Australia and could possibly be leagal.

Any thoughts on this?

P522 SWAT Pistol
P556® Classic Pistol with SB15 Pistol Stabilizing Brace
PM400 11" SWAT Pistol

 

[Bonza]

Volk,

I've seen some US conversations online that seemed to indicate weapons like these are designated as a "pistol" as a way of circumventing the need for a short barrel rifle permit (think of things like the P90S, the semi auto version of the P90). Could any American posters with the knowledge explain whether this conclusion is right or wrong? I'm not sure myself, as I said it was just an impression I got while looking at a discussion from the outside.

As far as Australian law goes, I suspect these weapons would be treated as rifles rather than pistols, but the same loophole may apply for all I know. I don't know how the handgun laws apply to a rifle ammunition type, even though the calibre size certainly meets the requirements.

 

[Volkodav]

Yes officer, its a .22 pistol, honest, well .223 anyway

 

[old faithful]

Yes officer, its a .22 pistol, honest, well .223 anyway

Ive thought about gun laws to the point that if a goverment really seriously wanted to make semi autos really hard to get and use, then maybe they could look at banning rimless ammunitions? For example, 7.62 x 39 is still widley available, and im not aware of any, but Im sure there are non semi autos in this calibre.
there are very few rimmed calibres in semi auto.

 

[Bonza]

Ive thought about gun laws to the point that if a goverment really seriously wanted to make semi autos really hard to get and use, then maybe they could look at banning rimless ammunitions? For example, 7.62 x 39 is still widley available, and im not aware of any, but Im sure there are non semi autos in this calibre.
there are very few rimmed calibres in semi auto.

I know Vektor used to make and import a pump-action rifle, available in either 7.62x39 or .223, which fed from a 30-round box magazine. This was legal and yet pump action shotguns are illegal, nice one Howard, that makes perfect sense...

 

[Todjaeger]

I know Vektor used to make and import a pump-action rifle, available in either 7.62x39 or .223, which fed from a 30-round box magazine. This was legal and yet pump action shotguns are illegal, nice one Howard, that makes perfect sense...

Please keep in mind a certain famous quote from British author and jurist Henry Fielding...

Having said the, there are "pistols" in the US which fire certain calibre rifle or even shotgun rounds.

The difference between a rifle, pistol, and shotgun in the US (at the Federal level at least) involves certain features of the specific firearm in question.

For instance, a smoothbore breechloading, non-black powder firearm is a shotgun. For non-military/LEO the minimum barrel length is 18.5", unless the weapon has been legally papered as a Class III weapon.

What the manufacturers have been able to do is include enough features into some firearms to qualify as a pistol, but otherwise have something which is the same as a rifle or shotgun. For example there are revolvers which are chambered in .45 Colt (or Long Colt) that by having a longer than normal cylinder can also fire a .410 shotshell. By including a 1:12 twist rifling, that keeps the weapon as a pistol and not a smoothbore shotgun. This in turn allows for a shorter barrel, and allows person purchase by people appropriately licensed/permitted people.

-Cheers

 

[the road runner]

This was legal and yet pump action shotguns are illegal, nice one Howard, that makes perfect sense...

Hi Bonza, Pump action shotguns are not illegal ,you just need the right license to have one in Australia. Same goes for semi autos.If you join a clay target shooting club you can get a pump shoty to shoot clays. All you need is a reason such as sporting use or vermin control.

You can get Pump Action rifles in Australia such as Remington 7615(223/5.56) or
7600(308W/30-06).

You will find that straight pull actions that look like M16/M4 are becoming very popular with shooters in Australia.There is alot of miss information in Australia relating to our gun laws.

 

[Bonza]

Hi Bonza, Pump action shotguns are not illegal ,you just need the right license to have one in Australia. Same goes for semi autos.If you join a clay target shooting club you can get a pump shoty to shoot clays. All you need is a reason such as sporting use or vermin control.

You can get Pump Action rifles in Australia such as Remington 7615(223/5.56) or
7600(308W/30-06).

You will find that straight pull actions that look like M16/M4 are becoming very popular with shooters in Australia.There is alot of miss information in Australia relating to our gun laws.

Thanks for clarifying mate, I know about the pump action laws but should have explained myself better - I was just talking about the standard longarm license and how unusual it is to see one weapon with a different requirement to another, very similar (in terms of potential danger, which is where the legal revisions came in) weapon. Personally if I were to shoot clays I'd much rather a good under and over to a pump action.

I wasn't aware it was so easy to acquire semi-autos though - doesn't that require either a primary producer license (for vermin control) or a professional hunter's license (again primarily for vermin control)? Evidently I'm not as up to date with the laws as I thought I was.

 

[Volkodav]

Tried clay target shooting once, loved it but was abysmal at it

Will stick to, or more to the point get back into pistol and rifle shooting. Would love to try on of those SIG P556 in IPSC with a stock though

 

[the road runner]

I wasn't aware it was so easy to acquire semi-autos though - doesn't that require either a primary producer license (for vermin control) or a professional hunter's license (again primarily for vermin control)? Evidently I'm not as up to date with the laws as I thought I was.

Well i would not say its easy to get a semi auto license.You do need a valid reason and have to go threw all the background checks .. Self loading rifle(Semi auto) are a bugger,when safety is concerned IMHO.You tend to find most primary producers have a good bolt action with a varmint barrel.Better accuracy,less issues with bush dust ect. I am sure if you are doing a cull in a chopper,then yes go a semi,but for the average farmer or hunter a bolt action is all you need.

Australian gun laws differ from state to state ,i think that's where people get confused with what you can have and can not have.Its an apples to orange comparison from state to state.

 

[Bonza]

Well i would not say its easy to get a semi auto license.You do need a valid reason and have to go threw all the background checks .. Self loading rifle(Semi auto) are a bugger,when safety is concerned IMHO.You tend to find most primary producers have a good bolt action with a varmint barrel.Better accuracy,less issues with bush dust ect. I am sure if you are doing a cull in a chopper,then yes go a semi,but for the average farmer or hunter a bolt action is all you need.

I agree, wasn't making a statement as to the effectiveness of the weapon type, just curious about license requirements. I think most hunters would choose a decent bolt action rifle (as you said).

 

[Volkodav]

Been checking out the price and availability of SIG210 in Australia but have discovered that SIG are currently subject to an export ban by the German government thanks too, believe it or not, a US FMS sale of SIG pistols to the Columbian police.

Apparently the pistols were manufactured in Germany and exported to SIGs US subsidiary, under license, on the proviso they were not to be re-exported, the US Dept. of Defence subsequently made them available to Columbia. The concern is that there is leakage from Columbian government agencies to the drug cartels and also that Columbia is considered a conflict zone which is an issue for the German Greens.

End result of all this is I may need to wait even longer for a pistol I have desired for over twenty years. Ah well that's life.

 

[the road runner]

Been checking out the price and availability of SIG210 in Australia but have discovered that SIG are currently subject to an export ban by the German government thanks too, believe it or not, a US FMS sale of SIG pistols to the Columbian police.

Apparently the pistols were manufactured in Germany and exported to SIGs US subsidiary, under license, on the proviso they were not to be re-exported, the US Dept. of Defence subsequently made them available to Columbia. The concern is that there is leakage from Columbian government agencies to the drug cartels and also that Columbia is considered a conflict zone which is an issue for the German Greens.

End result of all this is I may need to wait even longer for a pistol I have desired for over twenty years. Ah well that's life.

Hey Volk if your after a P-210-2 ex swiss army(prefix P-49) in 9mm one is for sale on usedguns. That's a pretty good price for one in excellent condition.. those 210 will only go up in value IMHO

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Alot of importers could get you one if you really wanted a new one



Gun laws are a pain in the rear. I was looking at getting a Night Force rifle scope from the USA as they were cheaper to buy in the USA when the aussie dollar exchange rate was sitting at $1.12. They would not export to Australia due to FMS laws.

Funny thing is Nightforce is owned by Lightforce and Australian Company.. Go figure.