The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

HurricaneDitka

New Member
BreakingDefense.com is reporting that the F-35B might fly at the christening of the Queen Elizabeth.

What's the UK's public attitude towards the F-35B? Is it viewed as negatively as the weapons program is here in the US? This seems like it could be a big public-relations win for Lockheed-Martin (and, I would presume, the MoD). Thoughts?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not as much negative press as in the US, but not really favourable all the same. If you look on Facebook pages about the QEC then you'll see some of the most ignorant comments about the F-35B ever because they read the reports from the bullshit peddlers and believe it.

Grit my teeth, wait until we've got it in service and showing it's worth, then we'll know. Would be handy if a report came out and it won air battles with a Typhoon for instance.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
BreakingDefense.com is reporting that the F-35B might fly at the christening of the Queen Elizabeth.

What's the UK's public attitude towards the F-35B? Is it viewed as negatively as the weapons program is here in the US? This seems like it could be a big public-relations win for Lockheed-Martin (and, I would presume, the MoD). Thoughts?
There's a lot of misinformation about the F35 but I don't think there's anything like the tidal wave of BS that seems to hang around Canada's purchase for instance.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
There's a lot of misinformation about the F35 but I don't think there's anything like the tidal wave of BS that seems to hang around Canada's purchase for instance.
You are exactly right about that, nothing but BS is to be found in the mainstream media in Canada. There is zero mention that the F-35 fleet now exceeds 100 jets with 15,000+ flight hours. Needless to say the media continues to re-vomit long ago corrected problems and grossly inflated obsolete pricing.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
It doesn't really come up so much here, I mean there was a little spike a few months ago when they announced an order was 'imminent" (6+ months ago) and that got a bit of press, but that's about it.

When the carriers hit the water and enter service then generally we should be doing alright. Press like big surface ships to report about, there's probably be some press when RIAT/Farnborough come around later this year however.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It doesn't really come up so much here, I mean there was a little spike a few months ago when they announced an order was 'imminent" (6+ months ago) and that got a bit of press, but that's about it.

When the carriers hit the water and enter service then generally we should be doing alright. Press like big surface ships to report about, there's probably be some press when RIAT/Farnborough come around later this year however.
Unfortunately we have no big ships for the press to report on which is probably just as well as it would be another defence procurement they could &itch and moan about although it is not so great for the RCN.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
HMS Artful (Astute 3) has finally left the Devonshire Dock Hall at Barrow, she's to enter the water tomorrow and begin systems tests in the dock.

https://twitter.com/BAES_Maritime/status/467358558829686784/photo/1
https://twitter.com/BAES_Maritime/status/467272431703707648/photo/1
https://twitter.com/BAES_Maritime/status/467315341279105024/photo/1

As an aside, the Royal Navy is now publishing that HMS Duncan will be the first Type 45 to be fitted with Harpoon AShM's

HMS Duncan| Royal Navy

And considering the success Daring had during BMD trials in the Pacific, more funding has been put up to fund development of using the Type 45 in this role, one of the next stages is to demonstrate AAW and BMD functionality simultaneously, in the trial they had to run BMD specific software and 'switch off' the regular AAW functionality.

UK extends Sampson radar experimental BMD research - IHS Jane's 360
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's all looking moderately encouraging..I'll go for a lie down :)

Give me an eighth Astute for an early birthday present and I may have a heart attack.

Really getting curious as to what the successor to Harpoon will be ...
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Seems to be heading in the right direction, would very much like another Astute.

Ultimately the results of the Perseus study will replace Harpoon and Exocet, but will we want to pay to kee Harpoon going until 2030+? IIRC there is some money in the budget specifically for the sustainment of Harpoon.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With the BMD role on the horizon I bet the RN and government wish they had ordered more hulls. Eight or ten Type 45 would have been good, with BMD 12 could have been justified, then a nice flow into the Type 26 build.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Seems to be heading in the right direction, would very much like another Astute.

Ultimately the results of the Perseus study will replace Harpoon and Exocet, but will we want to pay to kee Harpoon going until 2030+? IIRC there is some money in the budget specifically for the sustainment of Harpoon.
SPEAR CAP 3 seems to offer some part of the Harpoon capability even if it is smaller and more limited. Don't know about any navalaisation planes though, I would assume their is a Harpoon replacement in the USN of some description.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Seems to be heading in the right direction, would very much like another Astute.

Ultimately the results of the Perseus study will replace Harpoon and Exocet, but will we want to pay to kee Harpoon going until 2030+? IIRC there is some money in the budget specifically for the sustainment of Harpoon.
Sustaining the weapon system is relatively cheap.

Given how ambitious Perseus is, 2030+ may be a realistic window for replacement.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sustaining the weapon system is relatively cheap.

Given how ambitious Perseus is, 2030+ may be a realistic window for replacement.
Do you think Perseus has a chance of actually being developed? I thought that for the moment it was purely conceptual and likely to stay that way... if I had to put money on an RN Harpoon replacement I would have said either LRASM or SCALP Naval/MdCN, given it has moving target capability (though I understand SCALP would be significantly more expensive than Harpoon). The Perseus program has more momentum than I realised, I take it?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
SPEAR CAP 3 seems to offer some part of the Harpoon capability even if it is smaller and more limited. Don't know about any navalaisation planes though, I would assume their is a Harpoon replacement in the USN of some description.
Meh, is there necessarily the need for us to navalise a missile system when there's already plenty of viable alternatives on the market? LRASM or even the likes of Exocet or NSM which - if the idea of sustaining quad packs of Harpoon is viable - seems plausible.

IIRC our Harpoons are relatively old Block 1C models.

With the BMD role on the horizon I bet the RN and government wish they had ordered more hulls. Eight or ten Type 45 would have been good, with BMD 12 could have been justified, then a nice flow into the Type 26 build.
Kinda strikes me as possibly something which could have fallen under the same philosophy as CASD, try keep one destroyer on a BMD patrol 24/7 as it could be argued that the reason why CASD is the best method for SSBN operations cross over to BMD.

That and 6 hulls isn't enough to do the job *and* regular AAW work

Sustaining the weapon system is relatively cheap.

Given how ambitious Perseus is, 2030+ may be a realistic window for replacement.
2030 is the idealised date, however given how long it took to twist their arm about finally putting up the money for FASGW(H) It could be a bit of an ache trying to get them to (if the need was there for the UK) move it forward in timeframe, especially as they've got Exocet.

Do you think Perseus has a chance of actually being developed? I thought that for the moment it was purely conceptual and likely to stay that way... if I had to put money on an RN Harpoon replacement I would have said either LRASM or SCALP Naval/MdCN, given it has moving target capability (though I understand SCALP would be significantly more expensive than Harpoon). The Perseus program has more momentum than I realised, I take it?
It's not purely conceptual, but still mainly is, if that makes sense. Right now it's nothing more than a concept, but it's a concept which has been developed in consultation with the Royal Navy and the French Navy to meet their future requirements. So it's not just the company saying "X will do Y", it's MBDA working a concept using feedback on what the UK and France want in an AShM in the future.

However that's then and this is now. If we were to chuck Harpoon for whatever reason then we may as well do LRASM. In an ideal world i'd like enough Harpoon sets to give every Type 45 one, but I assume the premise is to move the mounts around in port to the ships that could use them, which makes sense.

With respect to momentum, I might be giving it more than it has, but that's because I freakin' love the concept and what it could do for UK forces. An air launched/surface launched/submarine launched land attack cruise missile and anti-ship missile with a 200kg warhead + 2 x 50kg warheads which can be deployed at the last moment in lateral bays or be retained inside the missile itself, Mach 3.

But would need the same development for the naval version that MdCN got from SCALP (300km range to 1000+)

The idea of one weapon for those roles across all the platforms sounds awesome, we get a sub launched AShM back too.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Do you think Perseus has a chance of actually being developed? I thought that for the moment it was purely conceptual and likely to stay that way... if I had to put money on an RN Harpoon replacement I would have said either LRASM or SCALP Naval/MdCN, given it has moving target capability (though I understand SCALP would be significantly more expensive than Harpoon). The Perseus program has more momentum than I realised, I take it?
I'm in the skeptic camp about Perseus and suspect it's way over the horizon. We need something pretty much right now - Type 26 needs a land attack munition plus anti shipping - and Harpoon 1C is a bit long in the tooth.

LRASM ticks a few boxes in my mind.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Indeed, it is far enough off right now that it's not totally worth thinking about.

IMO the ideal scenario is Mk41 with LRASM and TLAM, if we can get those into the ship when the first one hits the water then we're good. However if we get the A70, then we're going to need to fund integration of LRASM into the cell because we're the only nation using them who wants a VL AShM as France as Exocet, Italy has Otomat.

Mk41 with LRASM/TLAM
A-70 with MdCN/LRASM

EDIT: And Artful has hit the water

https://twitter.com/BAES_Maritime/status/467648814015610881/photo/1
 
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CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Do you think Perseus has a chance of actually being developed? I thought that for the moment it was purely conceptual and likely to stay that way... if I had to put money on an RN Harpoon replacement I would have said either LRASM or SCALP Naval/MdCN, given it has moving target capability (though I understand SCALP would be significantly more expensive than Harpoon). The Perseus program has more momentum than I realised, I take it?
I was more speculating based on current state of Western cruise missile technology. The big challenge I see is that a suitable "airframe" doesn't exist yet...ie fits in VLS/sub cells, yet also air launch capable... And yet packs a big enough warhead, has long enough range to be useful. And presumably a sensor that's good enough that you don't have to shoot hordes of what will already be an expensive missile, while solving a very challenging sensor problem at much higher speeds than what our legacy missiles faced. That's asking for a very big jump from where we are now. The major cruise missile players (Russia/China/India) have historically made their packages work by trading off some of those boxes...the new stuff gets closer and closer, but even they're not quite there and they've had time for lots of focused effort.

I certainly think Western defense tech could eventually get it done...but no point fooling ourselves that it wouldn't take well over a decade, maybe even two, and fistfuls of cash. This isn't exactly the kind of thing you want to take shortcuts on to rush out either. The interim solutions already mentioned are better to fill the gap.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was more speculating based on current state of Western cruise missile technology. The big challenge I see is that a suitable "airframe" doesn't exist yet...ie fits in VLS/sub cells, yet also air launch capable... And yet packs a big enough warhead, has long enough range to be useful. And presumably a sensor that's good enough that you don't have to shoot hordes of what will already be an expensive missile, while solving a very challenging sensor problem at much higher speeds than what our legacy missiles faced. That's asking for a very big jump from where we are now. The major cruise missile players (Russia/China/India) have historically made their packages work by trading off some of those boxes...the new stuff gets closer and closer, but even they're not quite there and they've had time for lots of focused effort.

I certainly think Western defense tech could eventually get it done...but no point fooling ourselves that it wouldn't take well over a decade, maybe even two, and fistfuls of cash. This isn't exactly the kind of thing you want to take shortcuts on to rush out either. The interim solutions already mentioned are better to fill the gap.
Thanks very much for the detail, appreciate it.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Indeed, it is far enough off right now that it's not totally worth thinking about.

IMO the ideal scenario is Mk41 with LRASM and TLAM, if we can get those into the ship when the first one hits the water then we're good. However if we get the A70, then we're going to need to fund integration of LRASM into the cell because we're the only nation using them who wants a VL AShM as France as Exocet, Italy has Otomat.

Mk41 with LRASM/TLAM
A-70 with MdCN/LRASM
Italy would surely be open to replacing Otomat, isn't that weapon as old as the hills? I guess Exocet has seen a pretty recent capability upgrade with MM40 Block 3, enough so that between it and MdCN the French are well looked after.

If Perseus is still conceptual and not likely to be developed for many years then I wonder if small buys of the NSM would be appropriate for navies operating Harpoon. It's certainly far more modern (and thus one would think more capable) than the newest Harpoon variants. Doesn't need to be VLS launched either. But then LRASM sounds more capable again... guess it depends on timing and whether or not there is an emerging need for a modern anti-ship missile any time soon.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
In terms of origin it's a few years more modern than Exocet, but it doesn't seem like a bad missile.

Ranges up to 180km, most recent block update (circa 2006) gave it a two way datalink, sea skimming, F&F, INS/GPS navigation, cruise at high subsonic.

Thinking about it, it kinda depends on what exactly the RN want to do with their Harpoon missiles, because if deck space was already created for 2 quad packs of Harpoon then it wouldn't be a bad thing to stick with that idea and get 2 quad packs of NSM, although right now i'm unsure on the size comparisons.

This'd keep the main missile silo free of AShMs and we can cram them full of TLAM or MdCN or whatever.

It'll be interesting to see what the UK exactly decides to do in 2015, that's when the design for the RN will be published and then we'll know.
 
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