The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

kev 99

Member
I'll be honest I'm a little disappointed with this news, I would have thought that the Otobreda with Vulcano ammunition would have been the more capable system. If we had a ship with a modular space then the customer should be able to pick and choose what gun system they wanted.

I'm wondering if cost might be playing a part, I would imagine the BAE MK45 is the cheaper system, then again it is a BAE product as well (even if it is a US one).......

Cynical hat off.

At least it means we are upgrading (silver lining).
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm pretty sure Babcock is still offering the OM mount for the export market. Bit disappointed not to be getting vulcano however.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Interesting info coming out from Parliament the other day about the dispositions of personnel under the SEEDCORN initiative to retain maritime patrol aircraft skills.

Of the 30 odd strong cohort of personnel, 20 are embedded with the USN and the remaining among Canadian, Australian and New Zealander MPA crews.

Splitting the USN segment down further, one has been trained on the Integrator UAV (the better son of scan eagle) but a group of four are scheduled to begin training on the MQ-4C Triton UAV.

UK Team To Train on Triton as Government Ponders Purchase | Defense News | defensenews.com

Hammond has said before that they are considering the use of UAVs to fulfill the MPA requirement in part so potentially are we seeing the MOD testing out what the MQ-4C/P-8 combination could be able to achieve together?

Sure would be interesting, although i'm still unsure because i'm not that hot on an MPA aircraft which isn't able to take out detected targets as necessary upon detection. Presumably if the Triton detected an enemy ship or submarine it would have to coordinate with a P-8 or other assets to prosecute the target? How detectable would a Triton be at 60k feet? Because if it was detected in some manner it gives the targets time to evade before other assets come in?
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting info coming out from Parliament the other day about the dispositions of personnel under the SEEDCORN initiative to retain maritime patrol aircraft skills.

Of the 30 odd strong cohort of personnel, 20 are embedded with the USN and the remaining among Canadian, Australian and New Zealander MPA crews.

Splitting the USN segment down further, one has been trained on the Integrator UAV (the better son of scan eagle) but a group of four are scheduled to begin training on the MQ-4C Triton UAV.

UK Team To Train on Triton as Government Ponders Purchase | Defense News | defensenews.com

Hammond has said before that they are considering the use of UAVs to fulfill the MPA requirement in part so potentially are we seeing the MOD testing out what the MQ-4C/P-8 combination could be able to achieve together?

Sure would be interesting, although i'm still unsure because i'm not that hot on an MPA aircraft which isn't able to take out detected targets as necessary upon detection. Presumably if the Triton detected an enemy ship or submarine it would have to coordinate with a P-8 or other assets to prosecute the target? How detectable would a Triton be at 60k feet? Because if it was detected in some manner it gives the targets time to evade before other assets come in?
the DEW line saw it as indicative of the P8 being the preferred MPA aircraft
How will the UK fill its MPA gap? - The DEW Line
I would personally find it surprising if an all UAV MPA force was adopted while I can see a fleet of 10 P8
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was thinking more along the lines of how the US and Australia plan to conduct maritime surveillance using the P-8 in conjunction with the MQ-4C as a mixed force under the BAMS program.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
I was thinking more along the lines of how the US and Australia plan to conduct maritime surveillance using the P-8 in conjunction with the MQ-4C as a mixed force under the BAMS program.
Seems likely but I can't really see as bought all at once, unless their was a deal on maintenance or cost considering at present their is no MPA fleet at all and instead of inducting the one craft it would be two small specialised fleets. A P8 fleet would be really good anyway even without UAV support.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Oh agreed no way at once, not even likely any time soon because there'll only be 4 blokes qualified to operate it at some point in the future, few and often purchases of the P-8 would be just fine for me. Just need to work out things like torpedo integration etc.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I suspect Triton is being looked at as part of a solution and would handle surface contacts through radar and optical sensors, taking up some of the strain from the P8 fleet (and much more cheaply) That leaves the P8's being tasked at ASW and also where needed, prosecuting surface targets. I think it's a reasonable strategy and similar to the way we fold our existing UAV assets around fixed and rotary wing platforms.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I'm not really 100% sure where this is going, the Type 26 is a program which isn't in a rush & will be being built into the late 2020's so there's plenty of time for Canada to get involved if they want to.

Anyway in other news SSN HMS Torbay has finished a 2 year RAMP and is back in action

HMS Torbay ready for sea after refit | Royal Navy
I agree, time is something Cdn politicians seem to have in abundance when it comes to committing to defence procurement. I am not sure why the RCN didn't opt into the Type 26 other than it is an on-going design and perhaps they felt (when they made this decision) modifying an existing current design will get things moving more quickly (LOL). There is some other news which I will post on the RCN thread when I get a chance. Cheers.
 

HurricaneDitka

New Member
I'm a noob, so apologies if this is the wrong place to ask, but ...

I've read that the Queen Elizabeth is to be commissioned in 2017, but that the UK won't have F-35 IOC until 2020. What is she supposed to do from 2017-2020? Will she be floating around with an empty deck?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
617 squadron (first UK F-35 squadron) will form in the UK in 2016 with the F-35B, the same year HMS Queen Elizabeth will receive the majority of her crew and begin sea trials (lots of sea trials, speed trials, handling trials etc including maintenance periods) before being handed over to the Royal Navy in early 2017.

Fixed wing trials begin on HMS Queen Elizabeth in 2018 (the same year the land based IOC is declared), working up to an operational capability package (carrier + decent amount of F-35B) in 2020.

In those years, there are also Wildcat/Merlin HM2/Merlin ASaC/Chinook/Apache operations to certify and trial, as well as generally trying to get back into operating a ship of this size and of such a capability again.

It'll probably be into the late 2020's before we get running at full speed - so to speak - with respect to fixed wing carrier operations

The second squadron to form on the F-35B is 809 NAS.
 

HurricaneDitka

New Member
Thanks Rob, very informative.

If there were another Falkland Islands-like incident in 2018-2019 (I know, VERY unlikely), do you think they would send the Queen Elizabeth with whatever F-35B's were available, or would they really hold off until 2020 for all the testing and trials to be done?
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks Rob, very informative.

If there were another Falkland Islands-like incident in 2018-2019 (I know, VERY unlikely), do you think they would send the Queen Elizabeth with whatever F-35B's were available, or would they really hold off until 2020 for all the testing and trials to be done?
I would imagine they would simply accelerate all required (high priority/high risk) tests, and figure out the lower risks through "testing by doing..."
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yep - loss of the islands would be a "survival of the government" issue - any measures, up to and including flying aircraft straight out of the gates of the manufacturer to rendezvous with a carrier in mid transit onto decks still wet with fresh paint would be perfectly acceptable.

It's unlikely, and you'd see some extraordinary efforts in such a situation.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If necessary you would likely even see a hot transfer of a Wasp and AV-8B+ if not a Nimitz given time. Loosing the Falklands would see the conservatives in opposition for over a decade as It would have done for Thatchers had Argentina waited for invincible to be transferred to Australia and Hermes to be retired.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks Rob, very informative.

If there were another Falkland Islands-like incident in 2018-2019 (I know, VERY unlikely), do you think they would send the Queen Elizabeth with whatever F-35B's were available, or would they really hold off until 2020 for all the testing and trials to be done?
Its the favourite RN what if. but what has to be remembered is the horrifically poor state of the Argentinian forces so any Falklands operation would be almost impossible unless they they attack in the style of a Tom Clancy Novel(container vessels sneak attack or something similarly implausible) plus how much heavier armed the Falklands is compared with 1982 and lastly the stuff we have which we didn't in 1982(TLAM, and C17's in particular) most of those invasions scenarios are partly deterred by SSN slinging TLAM's
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
If necessary you would likely even see a hot transfer of a Wasp and AV-8B+ if not a Nimitz given time. Loosing the Falklands would see the conservatives in opposition for over a decade as It would have done for Thatchers had Argentina waited for invincible to be transferred to Australia and Hermes to be retired.
I don't think we'd need even that to wrap up the Argentinian forces - the airbase itself is so confusingly laid out, their Ninja Spec force infiltrators would be wandering around baggage claim for a week looking for the Tiffy hangars :)

If we were up sh1t creek, I think we're on better political terms if support were needed - whereas Reagan was bound by some sense of diplomatic need to keep the south Americans happy, I'm sure these days, "right, these blokes have been with us in every bloody shooting match we've thrown for nigh on twenty years, what do they need".. would be the cry.

A pair of Burkes to stiffen the air defence, throw an umbrella over the airbase, then ship in paras by air bridge plus marines from the sea, I think you could do it at a pinch without a carrier (given the worn down state of their forces)

That plus TLAM into every hangar on the mainland, and sinking anything painted grey with an Argy flag and you'd be done. Unless Venezuela loans 'em some Flankers, we're sorted.

It's all very Tom Clancy to be honest - their Navy has less combined days at sea programmed in for their fleet than one of our frigates, their Mirages haven't flown since 2006 and they've muffed every offer to upgrade what they do have in terms of A4's etc Their land forces would look very under-equipped compared to a post Afghan equipped Brit force as well. Here's hoping they concentrate on fixing their economy and we get to trading and commerce - it'd suit both sides far better and we have more in common with Argentina socially and culturally than you'd think.

I've seen all sorts of hairy proposals for a possible invasion but none of them get past the "WTF" test. Taking the air field would be a must and that's very well secured, and I suspect it'll be first in line for an upgraded air defence component when land CAMM is on tap. I'd like to see some Tiffy down there with an anti shipping missile, even Brimstone but as I understand it, I think they're Tranche 1a ?

Maybe do a few exercises to demonstrate and test readiness to reinforce the islands just to show willing, stick a few hundred air expeditionary and paras onto a transport, have 'em bomb burst out the back yelling "dacka dacka" and generally making the point we have some of that global reach stuff still going on.

I'm thinking "discourage" rather than "retake".
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
...plus how much heavier armed the Falklands is compared with 1982 and lastly the stuff we have which we didn't in 1982(TLAM, and C17's in particular) most of those invasions scenarios are partly deterred by SSN slinging TLAM's
^this

Remember the plan to land a Herc full with SAS blokes to knock out an airbase full of Etendards to prevent Exocet attacks? Use TLAM to knock out the command and control facilities/munition storage/aircraft hangars.

Course, this is all academic, wait until Argentina funds proper modernisation of their aircraft/escorts/submarines/amphibs & replacing and upgrading their weapon stocks. Buying 19 Kfirs does not count. Last year they were talking to China about licensed production of the JF-17, but that seems to have gone quiet.
 
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