Ukranian Crisis

[Feanor]

Update.

In Donetsk the regional procuracy building has been taken by the rebels. National Guard service members were wounded during the storming.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ñòîðîííèêè "Äîíåöêîé ðåñïóáëèêè" çàõâàòèëè çäàíèå îáëàñòíîãî óïðàâëåíèÿ ïðîêóðàòóðû
Во Ð²Ñ€ÐµÐ¼Ñ ÑˆÑ‚ÑƒÑ€Ð¼Ð° прокуратуры в Донецке получили Ñ€Ð°Ð½ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð±Ð¾Ð¹Ñ†Ñ‹ Ðациональной гвардии

A photo of Donetsk activists and militia facing off with a military checkpoint, in an attempt to get the checkpoint moved or lifted, so that supplies can get into Slavyansk, where there is a shortage of medicines and food.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80LBObym0tI"]Ополченцы блокировали украинÑкую бронетехнику на пути в СлавÑнÑк - YouTube[/nomedia]

Right Sector batallions will be used to storm protesters held buildings in the East. This doesn't sound good.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: "Áàòàëüîíû "Ïðàâîãî ñåêòîðà" èäóò øòóðìîâàòü çàõâà÷åííûå çäàíèÿ íà þãî-âîñòîêå Óêðàèíû, ñîîáùàþò ðîññèéñêèå ÑÌÈ

The training exercises mentioned earlier in Kiev took place after all.

Ð’ ночь на 1 Ð¼Ð°Ñ Ð² Киеве прошли военные ÑƒÑ‡ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ - Фото - Ukranews

In Kharkov, a Russian "diversant" was captured.

u_96:

In Odessa troops and armored vehicles have been brought into the city.

Ð’ ОдеÑÑу ввели колеÑную бронетехнику и уÑилили меры безопаÑноÑти в городе

Also in Kharkov, a major political activist, opposed to the current government, was arrested.

Ð’ Харькове 30 Ð°Ð¿Ñ€ÐµÐ»Ñ Ð°Ñ€ÐµÑтован Юрий Ðпухтин, координатор Ð´Ð²Ð¸Ð¶ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ "Юго-ВоÑток"

May 1st demonstrations in Kharkov, primarily with Soviet-era flags.

Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - Харьков 1 маÑ.

Ukraine will resume the draft, cancelled under Yanukovich. This is after an earlier statement that if conscripts had been in Crimea, the situation would have gone differently.

In my opinion they think that if they can send conscripts from the west into the east, the chances or surrendering military equipment are lower, and willingness to fire on their country-men is higher.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Òóð÷èíîâ ïîäïèñàë óêàç î âîçîáíîâëåíèè ïðèçûâà â óêðàèíñêóþ àðìèþ
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Ð¡Ñ€Ð¾Ñ‡Ð½Ð°Ñ Ñлужба на Украине возрождена

Russia calls the resumption of the counter-terrorist operation in Ukraine, planned for May 2nd, a criminal mistake.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðîññèÿ íàçâàëà "ïðåñòóïíîé îøèáêîé" íàìå÷åííîå Êèåâîì íà 2 ìàÿ âîçîáíîâëåíèå îïåðàöèè íà þãî-âîñòîêå Óêðàèíû

The IMF is going to give Ukraine 17 bln USD.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÌÂÔ óòâåðäèë àíòèêðèçèñíóþ ïðîãðàììó äëÿ Óêðàèíû, ïåðâûé òðàíø ïîñòóïèò â áëèæàéøèå äíè

Czech Minister of Defense says that nobody can help Ukraine, because Ukraine itself is passive.

"

Crimea is getting spectacular tax breaks to attract business. Their tax breaks are so cant, the place is being compared to an offshore zone. At the same time there is a fairly high demand for tickets to Crimea, for the tourist season. Russian airlines seem to have problems meeting the demand.

*
*

The Crimea water shortage is being resolved, by drilling for drinking water on the peninsula.

*
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com ::  Êðûìó ïðîáóðèëè ïåðâóþ ñêâàæèíó, ïîëíîñòüþ îáåñïå÷èâ ãîðîä Ñòàðûé Êðûì ïðåñíîé âîäîé

Another ferry now runs from Novorossiysk to Feodosiya, Crimea.

Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - Из ÐовороÑÑийÑка на ФеодоÑию начал работать автомобильный паром

 

[Feanor]

Update.

The Ukranian military has attacked Slavyansk again. They hit a lot more checkpoints. 9 have fallen to government troops.

3 Ukrainian helos have allegedly been shot down, and two were confirmed as shot down by the Ukranian Ministry of Defense. They are Mi-24 helos that were conducting air strikes. However independent sources only confirm one down helo, with another reportedly forced to land after sustaining damage. Allegedly the rebels have taken out 3 BTRs, but the info is unconfirmed. There are videos of what's happening. At least one helo pilot has been captured. There are also reports of destroyed BMDs on the rebel part.

A vastly incomplete list of casualties so far, with 3-4 locals dead, 11 wounded, 2 Ukrainian military dead and 7 wounded.

Locals report that the Ukrainian military captured the TV center building, and has set up artillery pieces near it.

Fighting then moved into the center of the city, with helos unloading assault elements, to clear the city center. There are reports of Right Sector groups being used in the combat.

Reinforcements are moving from Donetsk towards Slavyansk.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ÐачалÑÑ ÑˆÑ‚ÑƒÑ€Ð¼ СлавÑнÑка. ОбновлÑÐµÐ¼Ð°Ñ Ð·Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÑŒ
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ñïåöîïåðàöèÿ íà þãî-âîñòîêå Óêðàèíû íà÷àëàñü ñî øòóðìà Ñëàâÿíñêà
Ðад СлавÑнÑком Ñбили вертолет Ми-24 ВС Украины
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[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1XzTluCK9c"]СлавÑнÑк Ñбили 3-й вертолёт 2.05.2014 - YouTube[/nomedia]
Colonel Cassad -

Meanwhile, a Ukrainian Maydan member's son was drafted into the military, shortly after the person criticized the government...

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Две новоÑти

There are mountains of photos and videos, if you want to see details.

EDIT: To clarify, the official Ukrainian MoD statement. Two Mi-24 have been shot down, one Mi-8 was damaged by small arms fire, forcing it to land. The helos were shot down using MANPADS.

http://www.mil.gov.ua/index.php?lang=ru&part=news&sub=read&id=34323

Rumors of Igla-S MANPADS had been reported, but this would be out confirmation that rebels do have them.

 

[stojo]

Major clash between anti-Kyiv protesters, and the police in Odessa.

Watch live:
www.ustream.tv/channel/o1odessa

According to Twitter posts by journalists, Army tried to move into the Slaviansk. Barricades are set ablaze...

The human shield of locals tried to stop them, and some of them where ran over by the APC's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd8hL5olGec&feature=youtu.be

Russia is asking for an immediate session of UN Security Council, because of the Kyiv intervention.

 

[Rimasta]

Well after Putin admitted to Russian involvement in the annexation of the Crimea, do we really expect Kiev to act like a docile Hindu cow while the country is fragmented? The loss of life is unfortunate but it appears civil war is where it heading. And are the Ukrainian citizens? News reports and Feanors outstanding news updates give an impression many locals aren't just unhappy with Kiev, they want their new capital to be Moscow, a foreign sovereign.
I can't imagine a situation where Mexican Americans would want certain sections to break off from the South-West and the US Army sits on its hands. Is that expectation of Kiev? Do nothing? I'm just wondering what alternative options they really have? The Ukrainian army only went in after well armed and well organized groups began systematically seizing the centers of power in the East. Is not the duty of a nations armed forces to protect its citizens and uphold the territorial integrity of the state? Civil wars are not bloodless affairs. When is Ukraine allowed to defend itself? When T-72B's and T-90's are in Kiev?
Also, would the use of MANPADS be further evidence of Russian involvement or did these come from Ukrainian stocks? If it looks Russian, smells Russian, and talks Russian, it's probably Russian.

 

[stojo]

Well after Putin admitted to Russian involvement in the annexation of the Crimea, do we really expect Kiev to act like a docile Hindu cow while the country is fragmented? The loss of life is unfortunate but it appears civil war is where it heading. And are the Ukrainian citizens? News reports and Feanors outstanding news updates give an impression many locals aren't just unhappy with Kiev, they want their new capital to be Moscow, a foreign sovereign.
I can't imagine a situation where Mexican Americans would want certain sections to break off from the South-West and the US Army sits on its hands. Is that expectation of Kiev? Do nothing? I'm just wondering what alternative options they really have? The Ukrainian army only went in after well armed and well organized groups began systematically seizing the centers of power in the East. Is not the duty of a nations armed forces to protect its citizens and uphold the territorial integrity of the state? Civil wars are not bloodless affairs. When is Ukraine allowed to defend itself? When T-72B's and T-90's are in Kiev?
Also, would the use of MANPADS be further evidence of Russian involvement or did these come from Ukrainian stocks? If it looks Russian, smells Russian, and talks Russian, it's probably Russian.

Well, US them selves used the same approach in Yugoslavia, just 15 years ago. First they marginalized moderate Albanian leadership, armed and supported Kosovo Liberation Army separatist gunmen who started armed insurgency, killing civilians, abducting police officers, and taking control of the territory... and then, when Federal Forces moved in to curtail the insurgency, NATO launched an unauthorized military campaign against Yugoslavia, in order to prevent the government of "killing their own people" ....

That is exactly, what they are against, right now, when it comes to Ukraine. No one in the Washington Administration is willing to use "killing their own people" argument, if the killing is done by the pro-Western government, in that case it is "antiterrorist operation".

First of all, the US argument blatantly avoids to address an obvious issue that 90% of the people who are protesting are not "Putin's agents", but locals who are understandably afraid by the fact that their country is in the hands of the government that rose to power by the coup, government that is dominated by extreme right, and which is promoting the worst kind of anti-Russian nationalist hysteria. And that there is a genuine will of the most of the population of the East to distance them selves from the Ukrainian government.

On the other hand, Putin uses this fear in his own political game, since it is going in his advantage.

PS. As far MANPADS are concerned, the entire units of the Ukrainian army have surrendered, or switched sides on the east, together with the equipment. There is no evidence so far that the MANPADS are Russian (although I would not exclude this option), since those weapons might have easily been acquired from the defected Ukrainian soldiers. MANPADS are regular part of the infantry air-defense capability.

 

[Feanor]

Update.

Government forces have begun an attack on Kramatorsk as well. The casualties are mounting, including several blatant and intentional shootings of civilians who were protesting what was happening, or attempting to blockade military units.

The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs backed claims by locals that there were foreigners among the Ukrainian units used in the operation.

It does look like a 3rd helicopter (Mi-24) was shot down using an ATGM or an RPG, depending on who you believe. News about destruction of rebel BMDs were wrong.

Colonel Cassad -
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðîññèéñêèé ÌÈÄ îáíàðóæèë â ðÿäàõ óêðàèíñêèõ ñèëîâèêîâ â Ñëàâÿíñêå àíãëîãîâîðÿùèõ èíîñòðàíöåâ
jerry24_it:
jerry24_it:
tutuskania:
tutuskania:
Colonel Cassad -
Colonel Cassad -
Colonel Cassad -
Colonel Cassad -

Meanwhile government troops have fallen back from Slavyansk. Possibly due to high casualties taken.

Вооруженные Ñилы Украины оÑтановили Ñпец операцию в СлавÑнÑке

Human shields of locals blockaded a lot of military units near and around Slavyansk slowing down or preventing their movement on Slavyansk.

УкраинÑкие военные ÑтолкнулиÑÑŒ Ñ Ð°ÐºÑ‚Ð¸Ð²Ð½Ñ‹Ð¼ Ñопротивлением меÑтных жителей

Meanwhile it looks like the Ukrainian military holds all the former rebel checkpoints around Slavyansk.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Òóð÷èíîâ ñîîáùèë î çàõâàòå âñåõ áëîêïîñòîâ âîêðóã Ñëàâÿíñêà è ïðèçâàë Ìîñêâó "ïðåêðàòèòü èñòåðèþ"

In Odessa over 50 are dead, some killed in a fire in the workers union building, started by the euro-Maydan, another 20 are dead after a mass beating at the Kulikovo field. People were screaming from help in a burning building, while the right wing crowd cheered.

It looks like Right Sector activists were using fire arms. They also appear to have taken prisoners.

Those who escaped the fire were being beaten, sometime to death, and it one case burned alive.

Colonel Cassad -
Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - 2.05.2014 ОдеÑÑа
Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - Едына краина
Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - 2.05.2014 Свидомые ликуют в ОдеÑÑе
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ОдеÑÑа
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Â Îäåññå ñõëåñòíóëèñü ñòîðîííèêè åäèíñòâà Óêðàèíû, ñåïàðàòèñòû è ôàíàòû
Colonel Cassad -

An emergency UN Security Council session is in progress but it looks like there won't be much of an outcome.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðîññèÿ ýêñòðåííî ñîçâàëà Ñîâáåç ÎÎÍ èç-çà "êàðàòåëüíîé îïåðàöèè" â Ñëàâÿíñêå

 

[Feanor]

Update.

Government forces have begun an attack on Kramatorsk as well. The casualties are mounting, including several blatant and intentional shootings of civilians who were protesting what was happening, or attempting to blockade military units.

The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs backed claims by locals that there were foreigners among the Ukrainian units used in the operation.

It does look like a 3rd helicopter (Mi-24) was shot down using an ATGM or an RPG, depending on who you believe. News about destruction of rebel BMDs were wrong.

Colonel Cassad -
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðîññèéñêèé ÌÈÄ îáíàðóæèë â ðÿäàõ óêðàèíñêèõ ñèëîâèêîâ â Ñëàâÿíñêå àíãëîãîâîðÿùèõ èíîñòðàíöåâ
jerry24_it:
jerry24_it:
tutuskania:
tutuskania:
Colonel Cassad -
Colonel Cassad -
Colonel Cassad -
Colonel Cassad -

Meanwhile government troops have fallen back from Slavyansk. Possibly due to high casualties taken.

Вооруженные Ñилы Украины оÑтановили Ñпец операцию в СлавÑнÑке

Human shields of locals blockaded a lot of military units near and around Slavyansk slowing down or preventing their movement on Slavyansk.

УкраинÑкие военные ÑтолкнулиÑÑŒ Ñ Ð°ÐºÑ‚Ð¸Ð²Ð½Ñ‹Ð¼ Ñопротивлением меÑтных жителей

Meanwhile it looks like the Ukrainian military holds all the former rebel checkpoints around Slavyansk.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Òóð÷èíîâ ñîîáùèë î çàõâàòå âñåõ áëîêïîñòîâ âîêðóã Ñëàâÿíñêà è ïðèçâàë Ìîñêâó "ïðåêðàòèòü èñòåðèþ"

In Odessa over 50 are dead, some killed in a fire in the workers union building, started by the euro-Maydan, another 20 are dead after a mass beating at the Kulikovo field. People were screaming from help in a burning building, while the right wing crowd cheered.

It looks like Right Sector activists were using fire arms. They also appear to have taken prisoners.

Those who escaped the fire were being beaten, sometime to death, and it one case burned alive.

Colonel Cassad -
Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - 2.05.2014 ОдеÑÑа
Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - Едына краина
Блог ÐлекÑандра Шакуна - 2.05.2014 Свидомые ликуют в ОдеÑÑе
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ОдеÑÑа
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Â Îäåññå ñõëåñòíóëèñü ñòîðîííèêè åäèíñòâà Óêðàèíû, ñåïàðàòèñòû è ôàíàòû
Colonel Cassad -

An emergency UN Security Council session is in progress but it looks like there won't be much of an outcome.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðîññèÿ ýêñòðåííî ñîçâàëà Ñîâáåç ÎÎÍ èç-çà "êàðàòåëüíîé îïåðàöèè" â Ñëàâÿíñêå

 

[Volkodav]

It will be interesting to see the nationality of any prisoners taken, could very embarrassing if the armed separatists turn out to be Russian military or para-military.

 

[Waylander]

This heavy handed approach of the loyal Ukrainian forces is going to backfire badly.
While I disapprove of the game Russia plays in it's former brother state I also disapprove of the clumsy attack the Ukrainians are performing.

Nothing good will come of it.

 

[overlander]

It will be interesting to see the nationality of any prisoners taken, could very embarrassing if the armed separatists turn out to be Russian military or para-military.

Maybe for you is more interesting to know that the 50 people killed today in Odessa have been burned by ukrainian ultra nationalist sended to Odessa by the coup impoissed nazi government of Ukraine, I hope these government pay some time these crimes against humanity.

 

[Feanor]

It will be interesting to see the nationality of any prisoners taken, could very embarrassing if the armed separatists turn out to be Russian military or para-military.

Why on earth would members of Russian government military or paramilitary get involved? There are plenty of former Russian and Ukrainian military and paramilitary that can be paid or convinced or both, to participate. Just like there is no reason to think identifiable Russian rifles would get smuggled into a conflict zone, when there are plenty of locally sourced weapons floating around.

As of right now the Ukrainian forces took a few prisoners near the TV center, but Donetsk Berkut counter-attacked, and freed the captured rebels. I think they took prisoners elsewhere too, but details are sketchy.

This heavy handed approach of the loyal Ukrainian forces is going to backfire badly.
While I disapprove of the game Russia plays in it's former brother state I also disapprove of the clumsy attack the Ukrainians are performing.

Nothing good will come of it.

The incident in Odessa is worse then what's happening in Slavyansk. Right about now I think Crimeans are quietly celebrating that they're not longer part of that country. A few more incidents like that, and Russian occupation will start to look good by comparison.

What's really shocking in Slavyansk is that the rebels have essentially fought off the Ukrainian military. They shot down either 2 or 3 helos, damaged another, and retook the TV tower. There is a report coming out of Kramatorsk that the locals and the Ukrainian airborne have reached an agreement where the Ukrainian troops will discharge their fire arms into the air, to avoid fighting.

 

[overlander]

Why on earth would members of Russian government military or paramilitary get involved? There are plenty of former Russian and Ukrainian military and paramilitary thatpersons paid or convinced or both, to participate. Just like there is no reason to think identifiable Russian rifles would get smuggled into a conflict zone, when there are plenty of locally sourced weapons floating around.

As of right now the Ukrainian forces took a few prisoners near the TV center, but Donetsk Berkut counter-attacked, and freed the captured rebels. I think they took prisoners elsewhere too, but details are sketchy.



The incident in Odessa is worse then what's happening in Slavyansk. Right about now I think Crimeans are quietly celebrating that they're not longer part of that country. A few more incidents like that, and Russian occupation will start to look good by comparison.

What's really shocking in Slavyansk is that the rebels have essentially fought off the Ukrainian military. They shot down either 2 or 3 helos, damaged another, and retook the TV tower. There is a report coming out of Kramatorsk that the locals and the Ukrainian airborne have reached an agreement where the Ukrainian troops will discharge their fire arms into the air, to avoid fighting.

Crimea has stability, people go to work normally , salaries have grown substantially, they feel safe And protected, thanks to Russia they are safé from ultra nationalist like the ones who kill 38 persons today in Odessa, so of course they are much better than in Ukraine.

 

[Rimasta]

It seems like the Ukrainian military is totally unprepared for dealing with crowds of unarmed civilians. Is it a lack of equipment and training, or is it a desired heavy handed approach? Looks like tear gas would help dispersing crowds. The active denial system also seems ideal for this situation. It will make anyone at a checkpoint, police station, administration building, feel compelled to leave without the use of live ordnance, and the Ukrainian military would be able to take back control, assuming of course Russia doesn't intervene.
There's a lot of talk about sending the Ukraine weapons but from watching the news it seems what they need is a way to disperse civilians without shooting them. Why hasn't this been discussed? Even advisory help, the Ukrainian response seems poorly executed. If locals can blunt them so effectively, the Russian army should be able to drive seemingly right through them.

 

[SolarWind]

It seems like the Ukrainian military is totally unprepared for dealing with crowds of unarmed civilians. Is it a lack of equipment and training, or is it a desired heavy handed approach? Looks like tear gas would help dispersing crowds. The active denial system also seems ideal for this situation. It will make anyone at a checkpoint, police station, administration building, feel compelled to leave without the use of live ordnance, and the Ukrainian military would be able to take back control, assuming of course Russia doesn't intervene.
There's a lot of talk about sending the Ukraine weapons but from watching the news it seems what they need is a way to disperse civilians without shooting them. Why hasn't this been discussed? Even advisory help, the Ukrainian response seems poorly executed. If locals can blunt them so effectively, the Russian army should be able to drive seemingly right through them.

These are not crowd dispersal units. They likely don't have tear gas. These are heavily armed military units that came to fight separatist militias. Perhaps they should have packed tear gas and come to Odessa do protect citizens there instead.

If things keep going the way they are going Russia will get involved. They won't be able to simply stand aside and watch ethnically Russian civilians getting ran over by APCs and beaten and burned to death. This mess has every potential to become WW3.

 

[Ananda]

Sorry little bit out of topic.
Few days ago, Indonesian Mindef presented to Indonesian Parliament the military procurement program up until 2014. In the presentation there are still contract from Ukraine for BTR-4. Just wandering if any info for Ukraine defence industrial complex still working under present conditions ? Some talk around members of parliament from what I heard ask the mindef if Ukraine still capable to fullfill the contract for BTR-4, but from what I gather the mindef still can not give definite answer on Ukraine capabilities for delivering those BTR-4.

Isn't that most Ukraine military industry is on Eastern part ?

 

[Feanor]

This mess has every potential to become WW3.

It certainly does not. What's your basis for this assertion?

 

[Comrade69]

It certainly does not. What's your basis for this assertion?

US/NATO come to Ukraine's aid if and when Russia gets involved.

Russia comes in strictly to protect its people in Ukraine while NATO tells the rest of the world that Russia is illegally invading a country(and some more false accusations towards Russia would help as well, just watch CNN during the 2008 Georgia-Russia war to see what I am talking about).

Plus IMO the US NEEDS to start another war to have any chances of fixing their point of no return debt.

Just my 2 cents..

Really hope it all ends peaceful

 

[SolarWind]

It certainly does not. What's your basis for this assertion?

Perhaps I overreacted a bit. But sometimes it does seem that if hardliners on both sides have their way, both US and Russia will soon have their troops in Ukraine fighting on opposite sides.

 

[BlueRose]

I find that Trade Unions fire really disturbing. I wouldn't blame if Russia had to fully intervene and even take Kiev at this point. They are really forcing Russia to make moves, to which they really have no choice but to intervene..

 

[gf0012-aust]

Can we stay in the lane of reality and not let the thread slip into fantasy land....