F-35 - International Participation

[gf0012-aust]

Defence-aerospace is reporting Australia will get 58 F-35As for A10.8 billion. This price includes the engines, support, and training and works out to $179m US per jet. The CDN gov is still throwing the 10b number for 65 jets including support and training. Hard to believe Canada would be paying 25m less per jet.

CREF Swerves comment

AustGov figures have consistently placed aircraft at around $87M per platform. The highest I've seen (and that was due to dollar changes and contingency factors) was $90M per platform

Aust and Canada don't calculate fleet costs the same. Interesting that SecDef on his visit a few years ago mentioned that AustGov fleet costs calculations were more realistic than extant USG and there was an exec push to look at the AustGov modelling

 

[RobWilliams]

Just as an aside, when the UK bought the first batch of 14 B's for £2.5 billion, the actual cost of the aircraft themselves were $96 million a piece for a B (excluding an engine probably), the rest was made up with the usual support agreements for the entire future fleet etc but also funds to pay to allow RAF Marham to operate the aircraft itself.

So don't be thrown off by the ~$180mn a pop, ain't as clear cut.

 

[John Fedup]

Just as an aside, when the UK bought the first batch of 14 B's for £2.5 billion, the actual cost of the aircraft themselves were $96 million a piece for a B (excluding an engine probably), the rest was made up with the usual support agreements for the entire future fleet etc but also funds to pay to allow RAF Marham to operate the aircraft itself.

So don't be thrown off by the ~$180mn a pop, ain't as clear cut.

The other issue I noticed with the pricing in the defense-aerospace article was their engine reference. They suggested the engine price was 29m (and was included in the unit price). I have seen prices quoted as 15m for the engine. Which is correct?

 

[John Fedup]

Just as an aside, when the UK bought the first batch of 14 B's for £2.5 billion, the actual cost of the aircraft themselves were $96 million a piece for a B (excluding an engine probably), the rest was made up with the usual support agreements for the entire future fleet etc but also funds to pay to allow RAF Marham to operate the aircraft itself.

So don't be thrown off by the ~$180mn a pop, ain't as clear cut.

I am not thrown off but you can bet our media and anti-JSF crowd here will distort this number a hundred different ways.

 

[RobWilliams]

I suspect the higher value because the B has a more expensive propulsion system with the lift fan, i've seen A's with a 16mn cost for the engine so a B will be more expensive. The A's have only recently been sub 100mn all in (at least i think it's all in) in the latest LRIP batch so a unit cost of $96mn has to be excluding the engine.

 

[harryriedl]

I suspect the higher value because the B has a more expensive propulsion system with the lift fan, i've seen A's with a 16mn cost for the engine so a B will be more expensive. The A's have only recently been sub 100mn all in (at least i think it's all in) in the latest LRIP batch so a unit cost of $96mn has to be excluding the engine.

don't forget the B more extensive debugging compared with the A as well which would push up the price as well as the complexity.

 

[John Fedup]

I suspect the higher value because the B has a more expensive propulsion system with the lift fan, i've seen A's with a 16mn cost for the engine so a B will be more expensive. The A's have only recently been sub 100mn all in (at least i think it's all in) in the latest LRIP batch so a unit cost of $96mn has to be excluding the engine.

I guess Defense-aerospace was confused with the engine pricing. If 29m is indeed the price for the B's engine then they were referencing the wrong price as Australia's order is for the A version. I believe the last LRIP price I saw was ~100m for the A plus 15m for the F135 engine.

 

[Air Force Brat]

I guess Defense-aerospace was confused with the engine pricing. If 29m is indeed the price for the B's engine then they were referencing the wrong price as Australia's order is for the A version. I believe the last LRIP price I saw was ~100m for the A plus 15m for the F135 engine.

Word comes today from the Sino Defense Forum, that Turkey has ordered the first two of 100 F-35As, Turkey is one of the original partners, and is working hard to bring their military up to speed....with all the heat in the region, this is a great time for F-35 partners to get their birds up to speed, the F-35 is the only marketable fifth gen in the West to counter the bad guys and their ominous threat, wouldn't surprise me for LockMart to look for ways to expedite delivery of these birds that are going to partners with security concerns, Turkey and Japan for example???

 

[gf0012-aust]

wouldn't surprise me for LockMart to look for ways to expedite delivery of these birds that are going to partners with security concerns, Turkey and Japan for example???

LM can't give slots up to anyone outside of 8.3 unless existing customers elect to do so.

Turkey is in 8.3,
Japan is not

The best they can do is pick up deferred slots or someone makes their prod holes avail for them to use.

otherwise. tough

 

[the road runner]

I suspect the higher value because the B has a more expensive propulsion system with the lift fan, i've seen A's with a 16mn cost for the engine so a B will be more expensive. The A's have only recently been sub 100mn all in (at least i think it's all in) in the latest LRIP batch so a unit cost of $96mn has to be excluding the engine.

The first 2 aussie JSF were close to $120 with engines.
I have read the additional Aussie "A" version is 90 million approx (engine is extra)

Altho the good old accurate press is stating one JSF for Australia cost $176 million a piece.:crazy A good way to sell papers.

LM have a cost breakdown on their website

https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost

 

[gf0012-aust]

The first 2 aussie JSF were close to $120 with engines.
I have read the additional Aussie "A" version is 90 million approx (engine is extra)

Altho the good old accurate press is stating one JSF for Australia cost $176 million a piece.:crazy A good way to sell papers.

LM have a cost breakdown on their website

https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost

I've never seen the overall costs go above $90m pp. (AustGov estimates) That's the overall fleet cost

The figures promoted elsewhere that they were above F22 prices etc were just abject nonsense

 

[the road runner]

I've never seen the overall costs go above $90m pp. (AustGov estimates) That's the overall fleet cost

The figures promoted elsewhere that they were above F22 prices etc were just abject nonsense

Even our first 2 jsf that were LRIP-6?
I am sure i read a breakdown that had the plane at 94 million and engines were another 12 million?

Is that $90 million including engine?

You hear so much false info in the papers and internet in general.
This wombat is stating costs are $210 million a pop for Australia's F-35
Ahh the internet where fiction becomes fact

https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/56377

 

[John Newman]

Even our first 2 jsf that were LRIP-6?
I am sure i read a breakdown that had the plane at 94 million and engines were another 12 million?

Is that $90 million including engine?

You hear so much false info in the papers and internet in general.
This wombat is stating costs are $210 million a pop for Australia's F-35
Ahh the internet where fiction becomes fact

https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/56377

This link was put up here quiet a while ago, it has the details from a Parliamentary Joint Committee on Defence and Foreign Affairs back in May last year:

ParlInfo - Parliamentary Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade : 16/05/2013 : Department of Defence annual report 2011-12

The relevant paragraphs relating to the cost of the F-35A's is below:

There is now strong alignment between the aircraft acquisition cost estimates from the independent US Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation Office, the US F-35A Joint Program Office, and the Australian New Air Combat Capability Project Office. However, the aircraft costs are sensitive to US and partner nation purchase profiles. The actual costs for each successive low-rate initial production lot continue to be below the US congressional estimates. Our first two aircraft are expected to be around, or less than, the $130 million estimate that Defence has had since before 2011. Overall, in 2012 dollars and exchange rate at A$1.03 to US dollars, 72 F35As are expected to cost an average of A$83.0 million—unit recurring flyaway cost—if ordered in the 2018-19 to 2023-24 time frame.

The latest official US congressional F-35A cost estimates, sourced from the publicly available Selected Acquisition Report of 2011, are consistent with the Australian estimates and indicate the cost of the F-35A—unit recurring flyaway cost—reducing from a price of about $130 million in US then dollars for aircraft delivered in 2014 reducing over time down to about $82 million in US then dollars for aircraft delivered in the 2020 time frame.

I haven't done the maths, but I would assume that the 'average' cost of A$83m at the exchange rate of A$1.03 to the US dollar, is probably closer to A$90m at the current exchange rates.

Cheers,

 

[SpudmanWP]

LM can't give slots up to anyone outside of 8.3 unless existing customers elect to do so.

Turkey is in 8.3,
Japan is not

The best they can do is pick up deferred slots or someone makes their prod holes avail for them to use.

otherwise. tough

There are plenty of slots open, especially considering the US's recent sliding of orders to the right.

Click this http://goo.gl/Edp5rj link as my attachments are not working right now.

 

[gf0012-aust]

There are plenty of slots open, especially considering the US's recent sliding of orders to the right.

Click this http://goo.gl/Edp5rj link as my attachments are not working right now.

the slots have to relate to the volume of those outside of 8.3

Unfort some of the latecomers also think that they can walk in and move 8.3's aside

 

[StingrayOZ]

the slots have to relate to the volume of those outside of 8.3

Unfort some of the latecomers also think that they can walk in and move 8.3's aside

I would imagine that image is pretty old, and slots would be going quick (Japan, Singapore, Israel, etc). A lot of nations have aging fighter fleets. Slots people give up may not be the ones they want.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I would imagine that image is pretty old, and slots would be going quick (Japan, Singapore, Israel, etc). A lot of nations have aging fighter fleets. Slots people give up may not be the ones they want.

I've no doubt that some of the new buyers would get some partial slots - but early volume runs? can't see it in the current construct

be that as it may, some of the new buyers want them as soon as poss as the region is perceived by some to have begun the march to an inevitable punch up

 

[John Newman]

I've no doubt that some of the new buyers would get some partial slots - but early volume runs? can't see it in the current construct

be that as it may, some of the new buyers want them as soon as poss as the region is perceived by some to have begun the march to an inevitable punch up

And I wouldn't mind betting that a number of European / NATO countries might be reviewing the level of defence spending with what's going on in the Ukraine too.

I was wondering at what point, or what year, the F-35 production might reach the 100 per annum mark? I also read once that it was suggested that at some point, when full production is ramped up, that production could reach as high as 230 per annum.

Just came across this today, it's an update of the production status from LM on the F35.com web site,


https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/downloads/13567/f-35fast_factsmay2014.pdf

 

[SpudmanWP]

the slots have to relate to the volume of those outside of 8.3

Unfort some of the latecomers also think that they can walk in and move 8.3's aside

Look at the chart again.

The dark yellow area represents open slots. There are even more now that the US has slid more orders to the right.

 

[StobieWan]

There's slots open but I guess what's being said is that while orders could be made for slots in that production rude (given enough notice) there's no possibility of any country pushing to bring production numbers up - we're still into managing concurrency etc?